Ginkgo's blunders against Shredder in WSCC

[zullil]

Stockfish certainly "feels" that Rad5 is much better than Qc5 here:

Yes, after 1000 seconds of thinking (ok this is mpv 4 but still).
I hope you guys realize that engines have limited time budget in a real game

Yes, I understand this was a game and time was limited. But clearly Gingko made a suboptimal move here.

By the way, here's Stockfish with 1 core and an empty 64 MB hash table, searching for just 5 seconds:

Code: Select all

Stockfish 050715 64 POPCNT by Tord Romstad, Marco Costalba and Joona Kiiski
setoption name Threads value 1
setoption name Hash value 64
position fen 8/2k5/2q2p1p/r7/1p1rpPPP/1P2Q3/pNP5/K3R3 b - - 0 45
d

 +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
 |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |
 +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
 |   |   | k |   |   |   |   |   |
 +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
 |   |   | q |   |   | p |   | p |
 +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
 | r |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |
 +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
 |   | p |   | r | p | P | P | P |
 +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
 |   | P |   |   | Q |   |   |   |
 +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
 | p | N | P |   |   |   |   |   |
 +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
 | K |   |   |   | R |   |   |   |
 +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+

Fen: 8/2k5/2q2p1p/r7/1p1rpPPP/1P2Q3/pNP5/K3R3 b - - 0 45
Key: 93073762A49EF0E8
Checkers: 
go movetime 5000
info depth 1 seldepth 1 multipv 1 score cp 266 nodes 78 nps 5571 tbhits 0 time 14 pv c6c3
info depth 2 seldepth 3 multipv 1 score cp 258 nodes 165 nps 11000 tbhits 0 time 15 pv c6c3 f4f5 c3e3
info depth 3 seldepth 4 multipv 1 score cp 483 nodes 284 nps 17750 tbhits 0 time 16 pv c6c3 e3c3 b4c3 f4f5 c3b2 a1b2
info depth 4 seldepth 6 multipv 1 score cp 483 nodes 374 nps 23375 tbhits 0 time 16 pv c6c3 e3c3 b4c3 f4f5 c3b2 a1b2
info depth 5 seldepth 7 multipv 1 score cp 272 nodes 1782 nps 104823 tbhits 0 time 17 pv a5d5 g4g5 h6g5 f4g5 f6g5 h4g5
info depth 6 seldepth 7 multipv 1 score cp 267 nodes 2745 nps 161470 tbhits 0 time 17 pv a5d5 e1e2 c6c3 a1a2 h6h5 e3c3 b4c3
info depth 7 seldepth 8 multipv 1 score cp 255 nodes 3515 nps 195277 tbhits 0 time 18 pv a5d5 e1e2 c6c3 a1a2 f6f5 g4f5 d5f5
info depth 8 seldepth 11 multipv 1 score cp 186 nodes 8603 nps 409666 tbhits 0 time 21 pv a5d5 f4f5 c7b7 e1e2 c6c3 e3c3 b4c3 b2a4
info depth 9 seldepth 13 multipv 1 score cp 188 nodes 13038 nps 566869 tbhits 0 time 23 pv a5d5 f4f5 c6c3 e3c3 b4c3 b2a4 d4d1 e1d1 d5d1 a1a2 d1g1 a4c3 g1g4 c3d5 c7d6 d5f6
info depth 10 seldepth 19 multipv 1 score cp 161 nodes 23526 nps 840214 tbhits 0 time 28 pv a5d5 f4f5 c6c3 e3c3 b4c3 b2c4 d4d1 e1d1 d5d1 a1a2 d1e1 a2a3 e1c1 a3b4
info depth 11 seldepth 19 multipv 1 score cp 173 nodes 26438 nps 911655 tbhits 0 time 29 pv a5d5 f4f5 c6c3 e3c3 b4c3 b2c4 d4d1 e1d1 d5d1 a1a2 d1e1 a2a3 e1e2 a3b4 e2c2
info depth 12 seldepth 20 multipv 1 score cp 188 nodes 132390 nps 1675822 tbhits 0 time 79 pv a5d5 g4g5 f6g5 f4g5 h6g5 h4g5 c7b7 e1e2 c6c3 e3c3 b4c3 b2a4 d5g5
info depth 13 seldepth 22 multipv 1 score cp 173 nodes 555480 nps 2019927 tbhits 0 time 275 pv a5d5 e3c1 c6c3 a1a2 c3g3 e1g1 g3f3 b2c4 d4d1 g1d1 d5d1 c1e3 f3e3 c4e3 d1d2
info depth 14 seldepth 22 multipv 1 score cp 188 nodes 795022 nps 2059642 tbhits 0 time 386 pv a5d5 e3c1 c6c3 a1a2 c3g3 a2b1 g3g4 c2c3 b4c3 c1c3 c7b7 e1c1 g4d7 b2c4 b7b8 c3b4 d7b5
info depth 15 seldepth 25 multipv 1 score cp 174 nodes 1170828 nps 2109600 tbhits 0 time 555 pv a5d5 e3c1 c6c3 a1a2 c3g3 e1g1 g3h4 b2c4 h4h3 c4e3 d5a5 a2b1 h3f3 e3c4 a5a6 c1e1 d4c4 b3c4
info depth 16 seldepth 25 multipv 1 score cp 167 nodes 1845631 nps 2141103 tbhits 0 time 862 pv a5d5 e3c1 c6c3 a1a2 c3g3 e1g1 g3h4 b2c4 h4h3 c4e3 d5a5 a2b1 h3f3 e3f5 f3c3 c1b2 d4d2 b2c3 b4c3 g1e1 a5a6 b3b4 c7b7
info depth 17 seldepth 28 multipv 1 score cp 168 nodes 2960648 nps 2140743 hashfull 348 tbhits 0 time 1383 pv a5d5 e3c1 c6c3 a1a2 c3g3 e1g1 g3h4 b2c4 h4h3 c4e3 d5c5 g1h1 h3f3 h1h6 c5c3 e3c4 d4d1 h6h7 c7c6
info depth 18 seldepth 28 multipv 1 score cp 200 nodes 4720398 nps 2155432 hashfull 513 tbhits 0 time 2190 pv a5d5 e3c1 c6c3 a1a2 c3g3 e1g1 g3h4 c1e3 h4h2 a2b1 c7c6 g1c1 h2d2 b2c4 d2e3 c4e3 d5c5 c1h1 c5c3 e3f5 d4d2 h1h6 d2c2
info depth 19 seldepth 30 multipv 1 score cp 197 lowerbound nodes 6532044 nps 2174448 hashfull 644 tbhits 0 time 3004 pv a5d5
info depth 19 currmove a5d5 currmovenumber 1
info depth 19 currmove c6c2 currmovenumber 2
info depth 19 currmove c6c3 currmovenumber 3
info depth 19 currmove d4d1 currmovenumber 4
info depth 19 currmove d4d7 currmovenumber 5
info depth 19 currmove a5a6 currmovenumber 6
info depth 19 currmove a5a8 currmovenumber 7
info depth 19 currmove c7b8 currmovenumber 8
info depth 19 currmove c7d6 currmovenumber 9
info depth 19 currmove f6f5 currmovenumber 10
info depth 19 currmove a5a7 currmovenumber 11
info depth 19 currmove d4d3 currmovenumber 12
info depth 19 currmove d4d8 currmovenumber 13
info depth 19 currmove c7d7 currmovenumber 14
info depth 19 currmove c6a6 currmovenumber 15
info depth 19 currmove a5h5 currmovenumber 16
info depth 19 currmove d4d6 currmovenumber 17
info depth 19 currmove a5c5 currmovenumber 18
info depth 19 currmove c7d8 currmovenumber 19
info depth 19 currmove d4d5 currmovenumber 20
info depth 19 currmove c7b7 currmovenumber 21
info depth 19 currmove c6b7 currmovenumber 22
info depth 19 currmove a5e5 currmovenumber 23
info depth 19 currmove c7b6 currmovenumber 24
info depth 19 currmove a5g5 currmovenumber 25
info depth 19 currmove c6d6 currmovenumber 26
info depth 19 currmove a5f5 currmovenumber 27
info depth 19 currmove a5a3 currmovenumber 28
info depth 19 currmove c6d7 currmovenumber 29
info depth 19 currmove c6c5 currmovenumber 30
info depth 19 currmove c6e8 currmovenumber 31
info depth 19 currmove c6b6 currmovenumber 32
info depth 19 currmove c6a8 currmovenumber 33
info depth 19 currmove c6d5 currmovenumber 34
info depth 19 currmove c7c8 currmovenumber 35
info depth 19 currmove c6c4 currmovenumber 36
info depth 19 currmove d4c4 currmovenumber 37
info depth 19 currmove a5a4 currmovenumber 38
info depth 19 currmove a5b5 currmovenumber 39
info depth 19 currmove c6e6 currmovenumber 40
info depth 19 currmove c6a4 currmovenumber 41
info depth 19 currmove c6b5 currmovenumber 42
info depth 19 currmove d4d2 currmovenumber 43
info depth 19 currmove h6h5 currmovenumber 44
info depth 19 seldepth 30 multipv 1 score cp 198 nodes 8175999 nps 2188436 hashfull 752 tbhits 0 time 3736 pv a5d5 g4g5 h6g5 h4g5 c6c3 e3c3 b4c3 b2c4 f6g5 f4g5 d4d1 e1d1 d5d1 a1a2 d1g1 a2a3 g1g5 a3b4 g5g3 c4a3 c7d6 a3b5 d6e5 b4c4
info depth 20 currmove a5d5 currmovenumber 1
info depth 20 currmove c6c2 currmovenumber 2
info depth 20 currmove c6c3 currmovenumber 3
info depth 20 currmove d4d1 currmovenumber 4
info depth 20 currmove d4d7 currmovenumber 5
info depth 20 currmove c6a6 currmovenumber 6
info depth 20 currmove d4d5 currmovenumber 7
info depth 20 currmove a5a6 currmovenumber 8
info depth 20 currmove d4d3 currmovenumber 9
info depth 20 currmove a5a8 currmovenumber 10
info depth 20 currmove c7b8 currmovenumber 11
info depth 20 currmove a5h5 currmovenumber 12
info depth 20 currmove c7d7 currmovenumber 13
info depth 20 currmove c7d6 currmovenumber 14
info depth 20 currmove d4d6 currmovenumber 15
info depth 20 currmove a5g5 currmovenumber 16
info depth 20 currmove a5f5 currmovenumber 17
info depth 20 currmove c7c8 currmovenumber 18
info depth 20 currmove d4d8 currmovenumber 19
info depth 20 currmove c7b7 currmovenumber 20
info depth 20 currmove a5a3 currmovenumber 21
info depth 20 currmove c6b7 currmovenumber 22
info depth 20 currmove c6d6 currmovenumber 23
info depth 20 currmove a5c5 currmovenumber 24
info depth 20 currmove c7b6 currmovenumber 25
info depth 20 currmove a5a7 currmovenumber 26
info depth 20 currmove f6f5 currmovenumber 27
info depth 20 currmove a5e5 currmovenumber 28
info depth 20 currmove c6d5 currmovenumber 29
info depth 20 currmove c6c5 currmovenumber 30
info depth 20 currmove c6d7 currmovenumber 31
info depth 20 currmove c7d8 currmovenumber 32
info depth 20 currmove c6a8 currmovenumber 33
info depth 20 currmove c6e8 currmovenumber 34
info depth 20 currmove c6c4 currmovenumber 35
info depth 20 currmove c6b6 currmovenumber 36
info depth 20 currmove a5a4 currmovenumber 37
info depth 20 currmove d4c4 currmovenumber 38
info depth 20 currmove a5b5 currmovenumber 39
info depth 20 currmove c6e6 currmovenumber 40
info depth 20 currmove c6b5 currmovenumber 41
info depth 20 currmove c6a4 currmovenumber 42
info depth 20 currmove d4d2 currmovenumber 43
info depth 20 currmove h6h5 currmovenumber 44
info depth 20 seldepth 31 multipv 1 score cp 192 upperbound nodes 8782674 nps 2196766 hashfull 789 tbhits 0 time 3998 pv a5d5 g4g5
info depth 20 currmove a5d5 currmovenumber 1
info depth 20 seldepth 31 multipv 1 score cp 198 lowerbound nodes 9006871 nps 2197333 hashfull 801 tbhits 0 time 4099 pv a5d5
info depth 20 currmove a5d5 currmovenumber 1
info depth 20 seldepth 31 multipv 1 score cp 207 lowerbound nodes 9386020 nps 2197616 hashfull 817 tbhits 0 time 4271 pv a5d5
info depth 20 currmove a5d5 currmovenumber 1
info depth 20 currmove c6c2 currmovenumber 2
info depth 20 currmove c6c3 currmovenumber 3
info depth 20 currmove d4d1 currmovenumber 4
info depth 20 currmove d4d3 currmovenumber 5
info depth 20 currmove a5a6 currmovenumber 6
info depth 20 currmove c7b8 currmovenumber 7
info depth 20 currmove a5a8 currmovenumber 8
info depth 20 currmove c6a6 currmovenumber 9
info depth 20 currmove a5a7 currmovenumber 10
info depth 20 currmove d4d5 currmovenumber 11
info depth 20 currmove a5g5 currmovenumber 12
info depth 20 currmove d4d7 currmovenumber 13
info depth 20 currmove c6d7 currmovenumber 14
info depth 20 currmove c6d6 currmovenumber 15
info depth 20 currmove c7d6 currmovenumber 16
info depth 20 currmove c6b7 currmovenumber 17
info depth 20 currmove a5a3 currmovenumber 18
info depth 20 currmove d4d6 currmovenumber 19
info depth 20 currmove a5b5 currmovenumber 20
info depth 20 currmove a5f5 currmovenumber 21
info depth 20 currmove c7b7 currmovenumber 22
info depth 20 currmove c6d5 currmovenumber 23
info depth 20 currmove c6a8 currmovenumber 24
info depth 20 currmove f6f5 currmovenumber 25
info depth 20 currmove a5h5 currmovenumber 26
info depth 20 currmove a5e5 currmovenumber 27
info depth 20 currmove c6e6 currmovenumber 28
info depth 20 currmove c6c5 currmovenumber 29
info depth 20 currmove c7d7 currmovenumber 30
info depth 20 currmove d4d8 currmovenumber 31
info depth 20 currmove c6b6 currmovenumber 32
info depth 20 currmove c6c4 currmovenumber 33
info depth 20 currmove c7c8 currmovenumber 34
info depth 20 currmove c6e8 currmovenumber 35
info depth 20 currmove a5a4 currmovenumber 36
info depth 20 currmove d4c4 currmovenumber 37
info depth 20 currmove c7b6 currmovenumber 38
info depth 20 currmove c6b5 currmovenumber 39
info depth 20 currmove c6a4 currmovenumber 40
info depth 20 currmove c7d8 currmovenumber 41
info depth 20 currmove h6h5 currmovenumber 42
info depth 20 currmove a5c5 currmovenumber 43
info depth 20 currmove d4d2 currmovenumber 44
info depth 20 seldepth 31 multipv 1 score cp 200 upperbound nodes 9738134 nps 2202201 hashfull 830 tbhits 0 time 4422 pv a5d5 g4g5
info depth 20 currmove a5d5 currmovenumber 1
info depth 20 currmove c6c2 currmovenumber 2
info depth 20 currmove c6c3 currmovenumber 3
info depth 20 currmove d4d1 currmovenumber 4
info depth 20 currmove a5a8 currmovenumber 5
info depth 20 currmove d4d3 currmovenumber 6
info depth 20 currmove d4d7 currmovenumber 7
info depth 20 currmove d4d6 currmovenumber 8
info depth 20 currmove c7d6 currmovenumber 9
info depth 20 currmove c7b8 currmovenumber 10
info depth 20 currmove f6f5 currmovenumber 11
info depth 20 currmove c7b7 currmovenumber 12
info depth 20 currmove c6d6 currmovenumber 13
info depth 20 currmove d4d8 currmovenumber 14
info depth 20 currmove a5c5 currmovenumber 15
info depth 20 currmove c6b7 currmovenumber 16
info depth 20 currmove c6a6 currmovenumber 17
info depth 20 currmove a5a6 currmovenumber 18
info depth 20 currmove c7d7 currmovenumber 19
info depth 20 currmove d4d5 currmovenumber 20
info depth 20 currmove c6d5 currmovenumber 21
info depth 20 currmove c6d7 currmovenumber 22
info depth 20 currmove a5a3 currmovenumber 23
info depth 20 currmove c7b6 currmovenumber 24
info depth 20 currmove a5f5 currmovenumber 25
info depth 20 currmove c6a8 currmovenumber 26
info depth 20 currmove a5a7 currmovenumber 27
info depth 20 currmove c6c5 currmovenumber 28
info depth 20 currmove c7c8 currmovenumber 29
info depth 20 currmove a5g5 currmovenumber 30
info depth 20 currmove a5e5 currmovenumber 31
info depth 20 currmove a5h5 currmovenumber 32
info depth 20 currmove a5b5 currmovenumber 33
info depth 20 currmove c6c4 currmovenumber 34
info depth 20 currmove c6b6 currmovenumber 35
info depth 20 currmove c6e6 currmovenumber 36
info depth 20 currmove c6e8 currmovenumber 37
info depth 20 currmove a5a4 currmovenumber 38
info depth 20 currmove d4c4 currmovenumber 39
info depth 20 currmove c6b5 currmovenumber 40
info depth 20 currmove c6a4 currmovenumber 41
info depth 20 currmove d4d2 currmovenumber 42
info depth 20 currmove h6h5 currmovenumber 43
info depth 20 currmove c7d8 currmovenumber 44
info depth 20 seldepth 31 multipv 1 score cp 198 nodes 10045101 nps 2198533 hashfull 842 tbhits 0 time 4569 pv a5d5 g4g5 h6g5 f4g5 c6c3 e3c3 b4c3 b2c4 f6g5 h4g5 d4d1 e1d1 d5d1 a1a2 d1g1 a2a3 g1g5 a3b4 g5g3 c4a3 c7d6 b4c4 d6e5 a3b5 g3f3 b5d4 f3h3 d4b5 h3h2 c4c3
info depth 21 currmove a5d5 currmovenumber 1
info depth 21 seldepth 38 multipv 1 score cp 204 lowerbound nodes 10524198 nps 2207256 hashfull 858 tbhits 0 time 4768 pv a5d5
info depth 21 currmove a5d5 currmovenumber 1
info nodes 11030583 time 5001
bestmove a5d5
quit

[mar]

You can pretend as much as you like, but it is as obvious as grass is green that Ginkgo blundered. Why is another question, but difference is simply to large and obvious from the first iteration that can not be defended with different design or style of the engine.

What's obvious is that:
- Ginkgo played a fantastic tournament
- Shredder won WSCS in a play-off match
- SF and Houdini would most likely have won from this position
- neither SF or Houdini have participated

[mclane]

And ? WHO cares about stockfish or Houdini,
They did not participate,

The championship was about Jonny, ginkgo, shredder, hiarcs, maverick and frivolity, protektor, Komodo.

They took the challenge. The others not.

Jonny won in the open championship.
Shredder in the software championship with uniform hardware.
Komodo won in the blitz championship.

3 very good programs. 3 titles.

Of course ginkgo played good and shredder was lucky to win,
That's how a competitive tournament works.
You need luck too.

Maybe next championship ginkgo wins,
Who knows.

But congratulation to all participants and all winners.

[Milos]

And ? WHO cares about stockfish or Houdini,
They did not participate,

The championship was about Jonny, ginkgo, shredder, hiarcs, maverick and frivolity, protektor, Komodo.

They took the challenge. The others not.

The champions of what exactly???
A laughable tournament that in a real world nobody except few fossils heard of .

[mclane]

And ? WHO cares about stockfish or Houdini,
They did not participate,

The championship was about Jonny, ginkgo, shredder, hiarcs, maverick and frivolity, protektor, Komodo.

They took the challenge. The others not.

The champions of what exactly???
A laughable tournament that in a real world nobody except few fossils heard of .

Do you want to troll around ?
This was the official icga championship,
The official titles in computer chess,

This was not a laughable tournament,
It was well organized and broadcasted live into the Internet,
Stop trolling around and get a life.

[Milos]

You can pretend as much as you like, but it is as obvious as grass is green that Ginkgo blundered. Why is another question, but difference is simply to large and obvious from the first iteration that can not be defended with different design or style of the engine.

What's obvious is that:
- Ginkgo played a fantastic tournament
- Shredder won WSCS in a play-off match
- SF and Houdini would most likely have won from this position
- neither SF or Houdini have participated

99 out of 100 first engines from any of the current rating lists would win from the position. Uri was just pointing out to an obvious blunder of supposedly strong engine (that also came out of nowhere, I wonder what would be its similarity with current SF, hehe). What has that to do with who is a champion or on which pathetic tournament the game was actually played?? This is a chess engine forum and a chess game of an engine has been analysed...
Only you know why you are constantly twisting the topic.

[hgm]

A laughable tournament that in a real world nobody except few fossils heard of .

That remains to be seen. One thing is for sure, however: nobody in the real world knows about you, and those that do would certainly not take anything you say seriously... You seem to live in a parallel universe.

[Milos]

A laughable tournament that in a real world nobody except few fossils heard of .

That remains to be seen. One thing is for sure, however: nobody in the real world knows about you, and those that do would certainly not take anything you say seriously...

Is that ad hominem a result of recognising yourself in some words of my post, "a fossil" part maybe?

[hgm]

No, it just points out the delusional nature of your general conspiracy thinking, when you start to ramble about bribery and such. It just has no roots in reality...

When you post something, it is pretty strong evidence that that something is not true. You can call that an 'ad hominem', but I just call it an observation.

[Milos]

No, it just points out the delusional nature of your general conspiracy thinking, when you start to ramble about bribery and such. It just has no roots in reality...

Levy and bribery and especially Ilyumzhinov and bribery, that must be science fiction, almost as Blater and bribery, especially when you say so .

When you post something, it is pretty strong evidence that that something is not true. You can call that an 'ad hominem', but I just call it an observation.

Really interesting observation coming from someone whose postings about real world (beyond physics particles and computer chess) have less in common with reality than children cartoons...