Komodo 9 Announcement

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Frank Quisinsky
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Re: Komodo 9 Announcement

Post by Frank Quisinsky » Wed Apr 22, 2015 6:07 pm

Hi Larry,

to test 4 versions p.A. is a lot of work and expensive (electricity costs). I pay in the past for Komodo, will not have it for free (same for other engines). I think I am not a VIP and each one should pay for it if interest. Furthermore I have fun with my work and for my hobby I should pay if I like that (not the problem).

If I understand:

Komodo 9 ...
Komodo 9.5 ... 3 months later
Komodo 10 ... 3 months later
Komodo 10.5 ... 3 months later
Komodo 11 ... 3 months later ... again update Price + 40$

The price for 9.5 and 10.5 is the same as for 10 only.

So I have nothing more if I need only two of this versions because 2x Komodo testing in the year is enough (other engines are important too, World isn't Komodo only).

For two versions which are interesting in my case ... expensive.
= 39$ + 40$ if I do that (can't see an Advantage) because if I test 4 versions I have to pay ...

39$ + 40$ + 4x18 for energy (4x 6 days = 4x 1.600 games) = 151$ for only 1 program = 151$ and 24 days of 360.

If all other programmers do hat I can test in the year ...
360 : 24 = 15 engines (4 versions).

Around 60 interesting engines are available higher or around the same Level Crafty have (not all are updated often). Two versions in the year are enough for a Rating List and the costs are OK.

39$ + 39$ + 18$ + 18$ = 114$ + time todo that = around 10$ per months.

Best
Frank

PS1: Often updated engines are really a Problem for People working on a Rating List system. Biggest Problem is that other engines have to Play again and again vs. the same program. That isn't good for each others ... would be the same if I added 4 derviate engines in a rating list. If I have to sorted out the older Version a really good Rating List system is more and more complicated.

PS2: Price is OK for the number 1 or number 2. But for People which working on a Rating list are 4 versions in the year many work and really expensive.

PS3: Nothing to do with the Situation that the playing style of Komodo 8 is for me much more interesting as the playing style from Stockfish. With Stockfish I must life in danger that the game is draw after view moves (hard but reality).
I like computer chess!

APassionForCriminalJustic
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Re: Komodo 9 Announcement

Post by APassionForCriminalJustic » Wed Apr 22, 2015 6:49 pm

Frank Quisinsky wrote:Hi Larry,

to test 4 versions p.A. is a lot of work and expensive (electricity costs). I pay in the past for Komodo, will not have it for free (same for other engines). I think I am not a VIP and each one should pay for it if interest. Furthermore I have fun with my work and for my hobby I should pay if I like that (not the problem).

If I understand:

Komodo 9 ...
Komodo 9.5 ... 3 months later
Komodo 10 ... 3 months later
Komodo 10.5 ... 3 months later
Komodo 11 ... 3 months later ... again update Price + 40$

The price for 9.5 and 10.5 is the same as for 10 only.

So I have nothing more if I need only two of this versions because 2x Komodo testing in the year is enough (other engines are important too, World isn't Komodo only).

For two versions which are interesting in my case ... expensive.
= 39$ + 40$ if I do that (can't see an Advantage) because if I test 4 versions I have to pay ...

39$ + 40$ + 4x18 for energy (4x 6 days = 4x 1.600 games) = 151$ for only 1 program = 151$ and 24 days of 360.

If all other programmers do hat I can test in the year ...
360 : 24 = 15 engines (4 versions).

Around 60 interesting engines are available higher or around the same Level Crafty have (not all are updated often). Two versions in the year are enough for a Rating List and the costs are OK.

39$ + 39$ + 18$ + 18$ = 114$ + time todo that = around 10$ per months.

Best
Frank

PS1: Often updated engines are really a Problem for People working on a Rating List system. Biggest Problem is that other engines have to Play again and again vs. the same program. That isn't good for each others ... would be the same if I added 4 derviate engines in a rating list. If I have to sorted out the older Version a really good Rating List system is more and more complicated.

PS2: Price is OK for the number 1 or number 2. But for People which working on a Rating list are 4 versions in the year many work and really expensive.

PS3: Nothing to do with the Situation that the playing style of Komodo 8 is for me much more interesting as the playing style from Stockfish. With Stockfish I must life in danger that the game is draw after view moves (hard but reality).
Just test the official-release versions then. You do not need to include any of the development versions into your rating lists; you also do not need to test them either.

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fern
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Re: Komodo 9 Announcement

Post by fern » Wed Apr 22, 2015 7:04 pm

Great you still keep working in Komodo, but I cannot avoid to tell you that at this level of playing force the 40 elo extra points are less desirable or important, at least for a player like me, than a new GUI.
There is something tired and even bothersome in just loading an engine in the very same gui, whatever it be. The field to gui expansion is huge. I am not just talking of the presentation in the screen, but of new, innovative services to make of a program a real chess partner, which today they are not.
I know I have said this same thing many times, without any effect, but I am a man of hope-... :-)

Fern

Frank Quisinsky
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Re: Komodo 9 Announcement

Post by Frank Quisinsky » Wed Apr 22, 2015 7:09 pm

Hi Adam,

yes, only this one I can do or I need more systems for testing. Mabe I will buy a third machine.

I will start the fight around place 1 ...

1.600 games vs. TOP-33 for Komodo 9 x64 at first. Directly after this one Stockfish current dev. BMI2 x64 (from the same day Komodo is released) have to play vs. the same participants. In this case both versions are sync for the follow test-runs.

Best
Frank
I like computer chess!

Frank Quisinsky
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Re: Komodo 9 Announcement

Post by Frank Quisinsky » Wed Apr 22, 2015 7:43 pm

Hi Fernando,

do you know how many work it is to develop a new GUI. Six years I am working with Martin. I answere at this time of over 100.000 mails. Over 70.000 Messages in Arena Support Forum. Martin is working around 3-5 days in the week many hours on it and I too with new ideas. We do here so many things, contacts with DGT in develops first FRC / Chess960 GUI. Arena was the first really good Chess960 GUI. We had at this time around 400 People with interest on it and much of this People helps with ideas. Rheinhard Scharnagl is one of them and wrote later a book about Chess960.

A good example is the Hiarcs Chess Explorer. I am looking from time to time in the work Mark do here. He is working very logical in construction, better in priorities of new options. Have a look how long he is working as one-men-team.

Same for Stefan Meyer Kahlen. Many years no updates but I know that Stefan works for around two years on new grafics and interesting options. First priority for him the own chess server.

That is indeed an important Point (chess server).
With a chess server you can get a bit Money for the dev. time back. And to develop an own server is a very large work.

Today we have so many nice GUIs avaiable. I think that it's indeed enough if programmers of engines concentrate his energy on the own engine development only.

Do develop a new GUI ...
You can't do other things over years and you must have a lot of knowlege to all the protocols and other standards.

I think if a new GUI a Group of persons should try that in Teamwork. Maybe such a Project the Stockfish team do.

I can understand your wish but a really good GUI ... impossible in a short time of development.

Best
Frank
I like computer chess!

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fern
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Re: Komodo 9 Announcement

Post by fern » Wed Apr 22, 2015 7:55 pm

I know, frank. I never said it is easy. BUT the strength issue is already developed. Forces must go to the other side.
Fern

lkaufman
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Re: Komodo 9 Announcement

Post by lkaufman » Wed Apr 22, 2015 8:02 pm

Vinvin wrote:
lkaufman wrote:We plan to release Komodo 9 on Tuesday, April 28 if nothing goes wrong. It will be the current version, number 1416.00, unless we find a meaningful improvement or make UCI option changes in the next couple days. We are satisfied that it is as large an improvement over Komodo 8 as Komodo 8 was over Komodo 7.
Two new major features have been added. One is Persistent Hash, which is desirable for analysis. The other is that Komodo can now play Chess 960 (a.k.a. Fischerrandom). Maximum hash size has been raised to 64 Gb, and UCI options have been added to control the amount of reduction (lmr) and pruning (lmp). Although we believe the defaults are near-optimum for bullet chess, it is our hope that users will discover that for long time control games some other settings are better.
We will have more accurate estimates of elo gain as release date gets closer, but as of now we think the gain is more than 40 elo in single-core mode and 50 in multi-processor mode. As usual, gains come from all areas, including search, evaluation, and time management. Most noticeable should be the increase in search depth reached in a given amount of time, which is due to better extension, reduction, and pruning rules. We have done quite a bit to improve performance at blitz time controls, but we still anticipate that Komodo will earn its highest ratings against other engines at longer time controls.
We have decided to offer would-be purchasers the choice to simply buy Komodo 9, or to purchase a year's subscription to upgrades. We expect, but cannot promise, that upgrades will be quarterly, but we won't put out an upgrade unless we estimate we have gained at least ten elo and/or added a new feature. If we make a breakthru we might put out an upgrade sooner. The pricing is such that if you would normally buy new versions twice a year (roughly our past frequency of release) the extra upgrades will be free. In either case, those who bought Komodo 8 will get about a $20 discount. Subscription purchasers will also get older versions for free. All prices will be slid down by one version, so Komodo 6 will now be free.
We will no longer include the Android version with the Windows package, but it will be available soon from Google PlayStore for less than $5.

Larry and Mark for KomodoChess
Will it be sold via Chessbase with the interface too (as version 8) ?
We expect that Chessbase will sell Komodo 9 with their interface just as they did Komodo 8, but it is not yet clear whether they will offer updates and if so at what price.
Komodo rules!

lkaufman
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Re: Komodo 9 Announcement

Post by lkaufman » Wed Apr 22, 2015 8:06 pm

TShackel wrote:
lkaufman wrote:We plan to release Komodo 9 on Tuesday, April 28 if nothing goes wrong. It will be the current version, number 1416.00, unless we find a meaningful improvement or make UCI option changes in the next couple days. We are satisfied that it is as large an improvement over Komodo 8 as Komodo 8 was over Komodo 7.
Two new major features have been added. One is Persistent Hash, which is desirable for analysis. The other is that Komodo can now play Chess 960 (a.k.a. Fischerrandom). Maximum hash size has been raised to 64 Gb, and UCI options have been added to control the amount of reduction (lmr) and pruning (lmp). Although we believe the defaults are near-optimum for bullet chess, it is our hope that users will discover that for long time control games some other settings are better.
We will have more accurate estimates of elo gain as release date gets closer, but as of now we think the gain is more than 40 elo in single-core mode and 50 in multi-processor mode. As usual, gains come from all areas, including search, evaluation, and time management. Most noticeable should be the increase in search depth reached in a given amount of time, which is due to better extension, reduction, and pruning rules. We have done quite a bit to improve performance at blitz time controls, but we still anticipate that Komodo will earn its highest ratings against other engines at longer time controls.
We have decided to offer would-be purchasers the choice to simply buy Komodo 9, or to purchase a year's subscription to upgrades. We expect, but cannot promise, that upgrades will be quarterly, but we won't put out an upgrade unless we estimate we have gained at least ten elo and/or added a new feature. If we make a breakthru we might put out an upgrade sooner. The pricing is such that if you would normally buy new versions twice a year (roughly our past frequency of release) the extra upgrades will be free. In either case, those who bought Komodo 8 will get about a $20 discount. Subscription purchasers will also get older versions for free. All prices will be slid down by one version, so Komodo 6 will now be free.
We will no longer include the Android version with the Windows package, but it will be available soon from Google PlayStore for less than $5.

Larry and Mark for KomodoChess
Thanks Larry. Thanks for the good news. I just had a question as to if you noticed any changes/improvements in the playing style of komodo. As a grandmaster I think you'd have special knowledge on that topic. For example, in Komodo 8 I noticed a better understanding of king attacks. So is there any distinctive changes? I buy chess engines both for strength, and for a human-like playing style with good positional, attacking, and closed position skills. Just wondering if you noticed any changes in komodo 9.0 versus 8.0.

Thanks.

Sincerely,

Tim.
I think the improvements are spread out over all aspects of the game, so I wouldn't say that the style will be noticeably different. Hopefully the overvaluation of many drawn endgames will be less obvious. King attacks should be detected earlier in most cases due to the increased search depth. Lots of little things.
Komodo rules!

Frank Quisinsky
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Re: BTW: GUI developing ... sorry to the Komodo people!

Post by Frank Quisinsky » Wed Apr 22, 2015 8:08 pm

Hi Fernando,

I think we have so many nice GUIs. ChessGUI, Winboard, Hiarcs Chess Explorer, Arena, Shredder and so many others. Chessbase is for myself to buggy without a good Support (I missed the Support and gave it up with this company). A lot of programmers try out a new way with Android, iOS.

But what we don't have ... and with stronger engines this is much more important ... a really good chess GUI in creating statistics.

Database programs, like Scid or ChessBase are on a level from max. 2.200 Elo in point of really good stats. We need more good stat options or we can't see the high Elo performance top engines have. With the level humans have we are to blind.

I am sure that with a GUI, easy to use for creating stats (interesting for create an opening book, information about playing style of engines, for Grandmaster to find out weeknesses from his opponents and so one) the community will celebrate it.

Same situation for years with Winboard or later with UCI ... we got more possibilites and with a great STATISTIC GUI we have a new toy.

Which such a toy the infinite!
That is the secrret of the future of computer chess.

An other secret is the idea by Prof. Ingo Althöfer.
Dreihirn ...

More and more important!
How we can get 100 Elo more Komodo or Stockfish have. User should able to used directly three or more engine for analyzes ... or we can build a combination for eng-eng matches. Such options are important for the future not only nice grafics for looking.

Best
Frank
Last edited by Frank Quisinsky on Wed Apr 22, 2015 8:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I like computer chess!

lkaufman
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Re: Komodo 9 Announcement

Post by lkaufman » Wed Apr 22, 2015 8:16 pm

Frank Quisinsky wrote:Hi Larry,

to test 4 versions p.A. is a lot of work and expensive (electricity costs). I pay in the past for Komodo, will not have it for free (same for other engines). I think I am not a VIP and each one should pay for it if interest. Furthermore I have fun with my work and for my hobby I should pay if I like that (not the problem).

If I understand:

Komodo 9 ...
Komodo 9.5 ... 3 months later
Komodo 10 ... 3 months later
Komodo 10.5 ... 3 months later
Komodo 11 ... 3 months later ... again update Price + 40$

The price for 9.5 and 10.5 is the same as for 10 only.

So I have nothing more if I need only two of this versions because 2x Komodo testing in the year is enough (other engines are important too, World isn't Komodo only).

For two versions which are interesting in my case ... expensive.
= 39$ + 40$ if I do that (can't see an Advantage) because if I test 4 versions I have to pay ...

39$ + 40$ + 4x18 for energy (4x 6 days = 4x 1.600 games) = 151$ for only 1 program = 151$ and 24 days of 360.

If all other programmers do hat I can test in the year ...
360 : 24 = 15 engines (4 versions).

Around 60 interesting engines are available higher or around the same Level Crafty have (not all are updated often). Two versions in the year are enough for a Rating List and the costs are OK.

39$ + 39$ + 18$ + 18$ = 114$ + time todo that = around 10$ per months.

Best
Frank

PS1: Often updated engines are really a Problem for People working on a Rating List system. Biggest Problem is that other engines have to Play again and again vs. the same program. That isn't good for each others ... would be the same if I added 4 derviate engines in a rating list. If I have to sorted out the older Version a really good Rating List system is more and more complicated.

PS2: Price is OK for the number 1 or number 2. But for People which working on a Rating list are 4 versions in the year many work and really expensive.

PS3: Nothing to do with the Situation that the playing style of Komodo 8 is for me much more interesting as the playing style from Stockfish. With Stockfish I must life in danger that the game is draw after view moves (hard but reality).
Yes, you understand everything correctly, except that we will probably only go to a new main version number once per year. Of course it is up to you whether to test each quarterly version, or only semiannual, or even only annual. I think most testing groups will test new versions after a six week or two month interval, at least for the top engines. Naturally no one would expect you to test a new version every quarter of Crafty or any other engine hundreds of elo from the top, but considering how often new versions of Stockfish are tested by some I think our policy is a good compromise. Maybe a good rule is to test new versions of engines within 100 elo of the top if there has been at least a 3 month interval, otherwise 6 months. With Houdini and Gull not updating this would mean just Komodo, Stockfish, and perhaps Fire would need more than semiannual tests.
Komodo rules!

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