Test Position: Nikolic Fischer revisited 19...Bg4!!

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acase
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Re: Test Position: Nikolic Fischer revisited 19...Bg4!!

Post by acase » Thu Nov 27, 2014 12:42 am

If there is anyone else who has a rebuttal to 19...Bg4!! to prove Fischer (and me) wrong, I would love to hear from you!, I would like to think that I covered all of the variations, but I know it is very possible that a patzer like me may have missed something that you, my fellow computer chess aficionados may see.

Vinvin
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Re: Test Position: Nikolic Fischer revisited 19...Bg4!!

Post by Vinvin » Thu Nov 27, 2014 10:53 am

acase wrote:If there is anyone else who has a rebuttal to 19...Bg4!! to prove Fischer (and me) wrong, I would love to hear from you!, I would like to think that I covered all of the variations, but I know it is very possible that a patzer like me may have missed something that you, my fellow computer chess aficionados may see.
Please, a PGN with all your variations.
Houdini is probably better than Stockfish to analyze such positions (with mating threats).

acase
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Re: Test Position: Nikolic Fischer revisited 19...Bg4!!

Post by acase » Thu Nov 27, 2014 11:29 am

Vinvin wrote:
acase wrote:If there is anyone else who has a rebuttal to 19...Bg4!! to prove Fischer (and me) wrong, I would love to hear from you!, I would like to think that I covered all of the variations, but I know it is very possible that a patzer like me may have missed something that you, my fellow computer chess aficionados may see.
Please, a PGN with all your variations.
Houdini is probably better than Stockfish to analyze such positions (with mating threats).

My PGN, as you can imagine, has been edited so many times over a few months that it is a very sloppy mess and would probably be illegible for most because it is so crappy. I would be embarrassed to post it (so I will not). I prefer that others post a variation they think may refute 19...Bg4!! and then I'll post a rebuttal or I'll congratulate them for busting 19...Bg4!!

peter
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Re: Update: 20.Qb1! seems to defend

Post by peter » Thu Nov 27, 2014 6:49 pm

acase wrote:
Perhaps you have a different move in mind for white in that sequence other than 22.Ng2? or perhaps you might see a different way for white in my lines.
Hi!

As for 22.a6 is the following line correct for you or do you have anything shorter there till White's advantage is a clearly winning one?

19... Bg4 20. Qb1 Nf3+ 21. Bxf3 Bxf3
22. a6 Ng4+ 23. Kg1 Bxf4 24. exf4 Nh6 25. Kh2 bxa6 26. bxc6 Qxc6 27. Qa2 Ng4+ 28. Kg1 Nf6 29. Kh2 Qd7 30. Qxa6 Qf5 31. Qa2 Kg7 32. Bc1 Rab8 33. h4 a5 34. Rb1 e3 35. fxe3 Qd3
Peter.

acase
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Re: Update: 20.Qb1! seems to defend

Post by acase » Fri Nov 28, 2014 4:39 am

peter wrote:
acase wrote:
Perhaps you have a different move in mind for white in that sequence other than 22.Ng2? or perhaps you might see a different way for white in my lines.
Hi!

As for 22.a6 is the following line correct for you or do you have anything shorter there till White's advantage is a clearly winning one?

19... Bg4 20. Qb1 Nf3+ 21. Bxf3 Bxf3
22. a6 Ng4+ 23. Kg1 Bxf4 24. exf4 Nh6 25. Kh2 bxa6 26. bxc6 Qxc6 27. Qa2 Ng4+ 28. Kg1 Nf6 29. Kh2 Qd7 30. Qxa6 Qf5 31. Qa2 Kg7 32. Bc1 Rab8 33. h4 a5 34. Rb1 e3 35. fxe3 Qd3

Hi Peter!

Thanks for your reply, I must admit that I didn't consider 22.a6 and I'll have to research your line carefully, you'll have to forgive me if it takes me a day or two as I must go to work Friday morning and it promises to be a long day at work.

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
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Re: Update: 20.Qb1! seems to defend

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Fri Nov 28, 2014 6:15 am

Here a6 ba6 bc6 Qf5 wins

[d]r3r1k1/p4p2/p1P3p1/2Pp1q1p/3PpPn1/2N2bPP/1R1B1P2/1Q3RK1 w - - 0 10

peter
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Re: Update: 20.Qb1! seems to defend

Post by peter » Fri Nov 28, 2014 6:33 am

No prob, take your time, I just wanted to show what I think to be the toughest way for White to defend
Peter.

peter
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Re: Update: 20.Qb1! seems to defend

Post by peter » Fri Nov 28, 2014 7:57 am

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:Here a6 ba6 bc6 Qf5 wins

[d]r3r1k1/p4p2/p1P3p1/2Pp1q1p/3PpPn1/2N2bPP/1R1B1P2/1Q3RK1 w - - 0 10
How do you reach this position, Lyudmil?
Fen says 10th move, in my variant I don't come there with 9 moves transposing in any way I see.
Can you give your line, please?
Immediate 22...bxa6 after 22.a6 doesn't work and there wouldn't be black Queen on f5 and N on g4 already. This after 23.bxc6 would allow the white Knight to get to g2 after Qc6 as well as after Qf5.

I can get to a position similar to yours at 26th move ...Qf5 instead of Qxc6, but then the white king is on h2, not on g1 as in your Position.

Here's the one I come to after 26...Qf5?:

[D]r3r1k1/p4p2/p1P3pn/2Pp1q1p/3PpP2/2N2bPP/1R1B1P1K/1Q3R2 w - - 0 1

and with the threat of white c7

27.Qa2 Ng4+ 28.Kg1 doesnt work as well for Black as after eliminating the white c-pawn first, which also adds threats as for White's heavy figures to come to Black's seventh.
E.g. 28...Kg7 29.Rb7
Peter.

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
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Re: Update: 20.Qb1! seems to defend

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Fri Nov 28, 2014 8:18 am

peter wrote:
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:Here a6 ba6 bc6 Qf5 wins

[d]r3r1k1/p4p2/p1P3p1/2Pp1q1p/3PpPn1/2N2bPP/1R1B1P2/1Q3RK1 w - - 0 10
How do you reach this position, Lyudmil?
Fen says 10th move, in my variant I don't come there with 9 moves transposing in any way I see.
Can you give your line, please?
Immediate 22...bxa6 after 22.a6 doesn't work and there wouldn't be black Queen on f5 and N on g4 already. This after 23.bxc6 would allow the white Knight to get to g2 after Qc6 as well as after Qf5.

I can get to a position similar to yours at 26th move ...Qf5 instead of Qxc6, but then the white king is on h2, not on g1 as in your Position.

Here's the one I come to after 26...Qf5?:

[D]r3r1k1/p4p2/p1P3pn/2Pp1q1p/3PpP2/2N2bPP/1R1B1P1K/1Q3R2 w - - 0 1

and with the threat of white c7

27.Qa2 Ng4+ 28.Kg1 doesnt work as well for Black as after eliminating the white c-pawn first, which also adds threats as for White's heavy figures to come to Black's seventh.
E.g. 28...Kg7 29.Rb7
The fen does not matter, it is the position that matters.

I do not know, I just looked at the position and thought it was won.

On Qa2, Rac8 should be enough.

[d]2r1r1k1/p4p2/p1P2np1/2Pp1q1p/3PpP2/2N2bPP/QR1B1P1K/5R2 w - - 0 12

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
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Re: Update: 20.Qb1! seems to defend

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Fri Nov 28, 2014 8:21 am

I see what you mean, you put the knight on h6, but I put it on f6, where it belongs.

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