Test Position: Nikolic Fischer revisited 19...Bg4!!

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BeyondCritics
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Re: Test Position: Nikolic Fischer revisited 19...Bg4!!

Post by BeyondCritics » Tue Nov 25, 2014 12:39 am

Allen: I have an immediate winning line here i believe, but in order not to spoil the tension i didn't posted it. So post your lines and then let us compare.

Yes facing Fisher over the board was always a true nightmare for them. My personal favorite is still Capablanca.

acase
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Re: Test Position: Nikolic Fischer revisited 19...Bg4!!

Post by acase » Tue Nov 25, 2014 1:22 am

Vinvin wrote:
After 19. ... Bg4 20. hxg4 hxg4 21. Rh1 Nf3+ 22. Bxf3 gxf3 Stockfish want to play a subtle move (because 23.Nh3 gives advantage to black) : 23.Nd3!, it's seems to be = .

[Event "e"]
[Site "s"]
[White "w"]
[Black "b"]
[Result "*"]
[FEN "r3r1k1/pp1q1p2/2p2npb/PPPp1bnp/3PpN2/2N1P1PP/1R1B1PBK/3Q1R2 b - - 0 19"]

19. ... Bg4 20. hxg4 hxg4 21. Rh1 Nf3+ 22. Bxf3 gxf3 23. Nd3 (23. Nh3 Kg7
24. Kg1 Rh8 25. Qf1 a6) 23. .. exd3 24. Qxf3 *

3 best moves after 24.Qxf3 :

FEN: r3r1k1/pp1q1p2/2p2npb/PPPp4/3P4/2NpPQP1/1R1B1P1K/7R b - - 0 24
30/47 03:10 345.880k 1.813k +0,46 24. ... Ce4
30/47 03:10 345.880k 1.813k 0,00 24. ... Rg7 25.a6 b6 26.bxc6 Dxc6 27.Rg2 Fg5 28.cxb6 axb6 29.Dd1 Txa6 30.f4 Fh6 31.g4 g5 32.Df3 De6 33.f5 Dc6 34.Dh3 Th8 35.Dg3 Dd7 36.De5 Te8 37.Dg3 Th8
30/47 03:10 345.880k 1.813k 0,00 24. ... Fg5 25.Dg2 Rg7 26.a6 b6 27.Rg1 cxb5 28.f4 Fh6 29.Txb5 Ce4 30.Cxe4 Dxb5 31.Cd6 Db3 32.Cxe8+ Txe8 33.cxb6 Dd1+ 34.Rh2 Dh5+ 35.Rg1 Dd1+


Hello Vincent,


After your continuation by Stockfish "19. ... Bg4 20. hxg4 hxg4 21. Rh1 Nf3+ 22. Bxf3 gxf3 23. Nd3"

23.Nd3 loses to 23...Kg7! as black is not obliged to capture the knight as Stockfish suggests in the continuation you posted.

rabbits23
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Re: Test Position: Nikolic Fischer revisited 19...Bg4!!

Post by rabbits23 » Tue Nov 25, 2014 2:31 am

Oliver: I played 20) ... Nf3+ and (SF) replies 21) BxN Then follows 21)...pxB 22)bxc6 bxc6 23)hxg4 (-1.13) Bxf4 24)exf4 At this point SF initially wants to play h4 for black but I keyed in hxg4 with the same plan Fischer had of getting the rooks on the h file and putting lots of pressure on black's king. SF displays (-4.28) after this and so I then stopped the analysis. I haven't looked at Capablanca's games so I don't know anything about his style of play or talents. I'll make a point of going through some of his games shortly.
So what was the winning line you found?
Allan

BeyondCritics
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Re: Test Position: Nikolic Fischer revisited 19...Bg4!!

Post by BeyondCritics » Tue Nov 25, 2014 3:13 am

I had more or less the same line, albeit without bxc6 spliced in, which makes no key difference here.
Yes confirmed, in this position stockfish has same (relative) difficulties with the evaluation of hxg4
[d]r3r1k1/p2q1p2/2p2np1/P1Pp3p/Q2P1PP1/2N2pP1/1R1B1P1K/5R2 b - - 0 24

I was heavily influenced by the work "My great predecessors" from kasparov.
Kasparov is not only a great chess player, he is intelligent too (he has an incredible, unmatched IQ). That results in some deep understanding, which is unmatched in the chess world i think. Definitely recommended if you want to "meet" the chess giants. Presented games are beautiful, that goes without saying.
I must say, i do not have all books of the series. If i find the time to work on them, maybe i change my mind :-)

rabbits23
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Re: Test Position: Nikolic Fischer revisited 19...Bg4!!

Post by rabbits23 » Tue Nov 25, 2014 5:30 am

Thanks for that Oliver. I'll put Kasparov on my must reads as well. Something to
keep me busy.
Allan

BeyondCritics
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Location: Bergheim

Re: Test Position: Nikolic Fischer revisited 19...Bg4!!

Post by BeyondCritics » Tue Nov 25, 2014 5:37 am

Sign of excellence, your extension found us Qb1!, which i currently think is the only move that stops black from crushing white immediately, i move which i had not considered at first. Sorry that i first overlooked your post, i am currently short on time.
Do you provide a github branch?
I still have some questions with this pv. What happens after
20.Qb1 Bf3 21.a6 Bxg2 22.Kxg2 Nf3 23.axb7 Qxb7 24.Nfe2!?
preventing the weakenig due to Bxf4
[d]r3r1k1/pq3p2/2p2npb/1PPp3p/3Pp3/2N1PnPP/1R1BNPK1/1Q3R2 b - - 1 24
Since after 24.Qc2 Bxf4 25.gxf4 g5!? (stockfish official) is enough for a decent black advantage.

BeyondCritics
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Update: 20.Qb1! seems to defend

Post by BeyondCritics » Tue Nov 25, 2014 8:36 am

I think 20.Qb1! (as shown by the special stockfish from Gary) does the stunt. Suddenly i don't find the win anymore, anything is reduced to ashes everywhere...
Currently i believe, that black has the slightly better chances after 19...Bg4!? but no more.
[d]r3r1k1/pp1q1p2/2p2npb/PPPp2np/3PpNb1/2N1P1PP/1R1B1PBK/1Q3R2 b - - 2 20

Objections are welcome, but please keep polite.

acase
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Re: Update: 20.Qb1! seems to defend

Post by acase » Tue Nov 25, 2014 9:18 am

BeyondCritics wrote:I think 20.Qb1! (as shown by the special stockfish from Gary) does the stunt. Suddenly i don't find the win anymore, anything is reduced to ashes everywhere...
Currently i believe, that black has the slightly better chances after 19...Bg4!? but no more.
[d]r3r1k1/pp1q1p2/2p2npb/PPPp2np/3PpNb1/2N1P1PP/1R1B1PBK/1Q3R2 b - - 2 20

Objections are welcome, but please keep polite.


Oliver,


20.Qb1 loses to Nf3+ 21.Bxf3 Bxf3 22.Ng2 h4! now, if 23.Nxh4 then Kg7! does white in, and if 23.a6 is played then Ng4! 24.hxg4 Kg7! does the job.

Perhaps you have a different move in mind for white in that sequence other than 22.Ng2? or perhaps you might see a different way for white in my lines.

BeyondCritics
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Re: Update: 20.Qb1! seems to defend

Post by BeyondCritics » Tue Nov 25, 2014 9:40 am

No i had h4 overlooked completely. I agree now, h4 does the trick.
Congrats, chess is to difficult for me.
Did you find h4 on your own or did you use chess software?

acase
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Re: Update: 20.Qb1! seems to defend

Post by acase » Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:06 am

BeyondCritics wrote:No i had h4 overlooked completely. I agree now, h4 does the trick.
Congrats, chess is to difficult for me.
Did you find h4 on your own or did you use chess software?


I researched all replies to 19...Bg4!! on and off for a few months (I work quite a bit of overtime so sometimes it takes me a while :wink: ) all with software. I just recently looked at the position again before I posted it (with software of course) and added a few more lines.

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