I was just wondering, I sometimes see a post here about computer Go, and vaguely remember that people like Vincent Diepeveen seemed to have tried their hand at computer Go programming. Was wondering if there are some strong programs these days using new heuristics. Maybe Vas gone to computer Go? Well, I suppose not, because there is not much money to be made there and he needs to support a family.
I came across a fairly recent article that gives an introduction, it seems relatively easy to follow for us dumb chess players The Mystery of Go, the Ancient Game That Computers Still Can’t Win.
I see one person there, not unknown to us here in computer chess, who has taken up the challenges of a new game:
Rémi Coulom (left) and his computer program, Crazy Stone, take on grandmaster Norimoto Yoda in the game of Go. Photo: Takashi Osato/WIRED.
How many chess programmers are turning to Go?
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How many chess programmers are turning to Go?
Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first
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are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
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place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you
are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
-- Brian W. Kernighan
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Re: How many chess programmers are turning to Go?
I learned to play Go a few months ago and I've kind of wondered about the same question.
It seems the situation of computer Go is similar to the one of computer chess in the 90's. You say that there is not many money to be made on this field, but I'm not that sure about it (for example, the android app for playing on KGS, a famous GO server costs 7.40€. Of course it has nothing to do with building a Go engine, but it can give you an idea that there are people who spend money on it). It seems that in spite of the advances that have been recently done, Go is for the moment completly mastered by humans. For example, AFAIK, actual softwares don't have yet a proper post mortem analysis feature.
Currently Go looks more like a challenge for programmers than chess; the receipt for a strong chess engine is already known (not saying that it's easy to do, but that the technical knowledge is right there for whoever wants/can use it), but for Go it seems there is a long road to go over.
Best
E Diaz
It seems the situation of computer Go is similar to the one of computer chess in the 90's. You say that there is not many money to be made on this field, but I'm not that sure about it (for example, the android app for playing on KGS, a famous GO server costs 7.40€. Of course it has nothing to do with building a Go engine, but it can give you an idea that there are people who spend money on it). It seems that in spite of the advances that have been recently done, Go is for the moment completly mastered by humans. For example, AFAIK, actual softwares don't have yet a proper post mortem analysis feature.
Currently Go looks more like a challenge for programmers than chess; the receipt for a strong chess engine is already known (not saying that it's easy to do, but that the technical knowledge is right there for whoever wants/can use it), but for Go it seems there is a long road to go over.
Best
E Diaz
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2. leren [v] (teach, learn, instruct) impart skills or knowledge to.
1. leren [vc] (learn, larn, acquire) acquire or gain knowledge or skills.
2. leren [v] (teach, learn, instruct) impart skills or knowledge to.
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Re: How many chess programmers are turning to Go?
I started writing a Go engine about half a year ago. It's very different from chess programming so it's been a lot of fun. Sadly my program, Accelerator, isn't strong yet, but I expect this to change after I start using heavy playouts. Haven't done that yet due to my computer breaking down and not being able to test things for two and a half weeks. I do not known of any other not already mentioned chess programmers turning to go programming with the exception of mr. Dailey, who is deceased.
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Re: How many chess programmers are turning to Go?
While computer Go resembles computer Chess from 90's, both are/were not "completely mastered by humans", as you expressed it. Computer Chess in 90's on x386, x486, early Pentiums, was reaching 2,300-2,400 human Elo level, more than 99% of humans are below that, and it was "mastered" only by GMs against bots. Similarly, some Go engines now on 20-cores reach 6 dan level, which is higher than 99% of human Go players, and only Go pros and the strongest of amateurs master it against bots.pocopito wrote:I learned to play Go a few months ago and I've kind of wondered about the same question.
It seems the situation of computer Go is similar to the one of computer chess in the 90's. You say that there is not many money to be made on this field, but I'm not that sure about it (for example, the android app for playing on KGS, a famous GO server costs 7.40€. Of course it has nothing to do with building a Go engine, but it can give you an idea that there are people who spend money on it). It seems that in spite of the advances that have been recently done, Go is for the moment completly mastered by humans. For example, AFAIK, actual softwares don't have yet a proper post mortem analysis feature.
It seems only a question of time, maybe 10-20 years, until bots will become stronger in Go, even compared to Go pros.
Currently Go looks more like a challenge for programmers than chess; the receipt for a strong chess engine is already known (not saying that it's easy to do, but that the technical knowledge is right there for whoever wants/can use it), but for Go it seems there is a long road to go over.
Best
E Diaz
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Re: How many chess programmers are turning to Go?
Similar thoughts crossed my mindLaskos wrote:While computer Go resembles computer Chess from 90's, both are/were not "completely mastered by humans", as you expressed it. Computer Chess in 90's on x386, x486, early Pentiums, was reaching 2,300-2,400 human Elo level, more than 99% of humans are below that, and it was "mastered" only by GMs against bots. Similarly, some Go engines now on 20-cores reach 6 dan level, which is higher than 99% of human Go players, and only Go pros and the strongest of amateurs master it against bots.pocopito wrote:I learned to play Go a few months ago and I've kind of wondered about the same question.
It seems the situation of computer Go is similar to the one of computer chess in the 90's. You say that there is not many money to be made on this field, but I'm not that sure about it (for example, the android app for playing on KGS, a famous GO server costs 7.40€. Of course it has nothing to do with building a Go engine, but it can give you an idea that there are people who spend money on it). It seems that in spite of the advances that have been recently done, Go is for the moment completly mastered by humans. For example, AFAIK, actual softwares don't have yet a proper post mortem analysis feature.
It seems only a question of time, maybe 10-20 years, until bots will become stronger in Go, even compared to Go pros.Currently Go looks more like a challenge for programmers than chess; the receipt for a strong chess engine is already known (not saying that it's easy to do, but that the technical knowledge is right there for whoever wants/can use it), but for Go it seems there is a long road to go over.
Best
E Diaz
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Re: How many chess programmers are turning to Go?
The other notable chess programmer who attempted a Go engine is Gian-Carlo Pascutto. Though better known for Sjeng, he was the first person to offer a monte carlo Go program for sale: Leela. I don't think he has worked on either program for several years, however.
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Re: How many chess programmers are turning to Go?
Oh yes! if i was a chess programmer i think i too, would be turning to go back home now.
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Re: How many chess programmers are turning to Go?
Kudos to Remi Coulom! His program Crazy Stone is widely mentioned as the pioneer of MCTS/UCT, that revolutionized Computer Go back in 2005. And now it is the strongest, or one of the strongest, with a 6 dan leval on home PC. Very few human players are above 6 dan, and that means that Go programs will soon be on par with the Kasparov's of Go, and eventually be on another level, just like in Chess.Eelco de Groot wrote:I was just wondering, I sometimes see a post here about computer Go, and vaguely remember that people like Vincent Diepeveen seemed to have tried their hand at computer Go programming. Was wondering if there are some strong programs these days using new heuristics. Maybe Vas gone to computer Go? Well, I suppose not, because there is not much money to be made there and he needs to support a family.
I came across a fairly recent article that gives an introduction, it seems relatively easy to follow for us dumb chess players The Mystery of Go, the Ancient Game That Computers Still Can’t Win.
I see one person there, not unknown to us here in computer chess, who has taken up the challenges of a new game:
Rémi Coulom (left) and his computer program, Crazy Stone, take on grandmaster Norimoto Yoda in the game of Go. Photo: Takashi Osato/WIRED.
On the other hand, Remi's program is closed source. To break the dan/elo barriers, a strong engine using the same state-of-the-art techniques needs to be open source. And that's the case already with Fuego. I'm sure in the coming years, the strongest programs will be open source, and will be on par with the best humans (and better in a few years more).
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Re: How many chess programmers are turning to Go?
Thanks everyone for the replies and comments! If we had a way to display Go diagrams, maybe we could make a subforum for it!
Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first
place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you
are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
-- Brian W. Kernighan
place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you
are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
-- Brian W. Kernighan
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Re: How many chess programmers are turning to Go?
I tried to elicit some interest:Eelco de Groot wrote:Thanks everyone for the replies and comments! If we had a way to display Go diagrams, maybe we could make a subforum for it!
http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=504919