Best engines for positional analysis?

[JBNielsen]

Which engines are best to help you (players with +2000 elo) to improve your positional play?

[M ANSARI]

The problem with engines is that they go too deep into a position and are way too tactically strong when compared to humans. So they might play a move that looks like it is positionally very poor, yet it is a good move as there is a tactical reasoning behind that move. I feel that positional play is a language that can simplify the tactical language of chess, and makes chess much more understandable to humans. For example if you see an open file you put your rook there immediately if you don't see any other tactical resource ... but an engine might look very deep and find that tactically there is a better move that forces a loss of material and avoid it. A human off hand will think that the engine is playing a poor "computery" move, but again the human cannot calculate tactics as well.

Best for learning positional chess for a human is to get a good book made by humans for humans. Or to go through the games of GM's and try to understand the basic concepts of how to place your pieces.

[lucasart]

The problem with engines is that they go too deep into a position and are way too tactically strong when compared to humans. So they might play a move that looks like it is positionally very poor, yet it is a good move as there is a tactical reasoning behind that move. I feel that positional play is a language that can simplify the tactical language of chess, and makes chess much more understandable to humans. For example if you see an open file you put your rook there immediately if you don't see any other tactical resource ... but an engine might look very deep and find that tactically there is a better move that forces a loss of material and avoid it. A human off hand will think that the engine is playing a poor "computery" move, but again the human cannot calculate tactics as well.

Best for learning positional chess for a human is to get a good book made by humans for humans. Or to go through the games of GM's and try to understand the basic concepts of how to place your pieces.

100% agree

[JBNielsen]

The problem with engines is that they go too deep into a position and are way too tactically strong when compared to humans. So they might play a move that looks like it is positionally very poor, yet it is a good move as there is a tactical reasoning behind that move. I feel that positional play is a language that can simplify the tactical language of chess, and makes chess much more understandable to humans. For example if you see an open file you put your rook there immediately if you don't see any other tactical resource ... but an engine might look very deep and find that tactically there is a better move that forces a loss of material and avoid it. A human off hand will think that the engine is playing a poor "computery" move, but again the human cannot calculate tactics as well.

Best for learning positional chess for a human is to get a good book made by humans for humans. Or to go through the games of GM's and try to understand the basic concepts of how to place your pieces.

100% agree

Thanks. I understand what you write.

But I want to analyze my own games and learn from them.
The game below is played by a friend of mine, though.

Is fx 11.Bf4 really ca. 0,26 better than 11.c3?
I want to trust the engine as much as possibly positionally.

The analysis below is done with Fruit 2.1 with 60sec/move.
I don't trust that much anymore.
Several other engines (tactically) understand, that 20.-,Qxb3 is a bad move.

What I want is a good engine for analysis like this.

Code: Select all

                ----- Error --------      Score IF This line was played
1. e4                .          0.00       0.20    e4.
.....e6         x    .          0.06       0.26    Nf6 e5 Nd5 Nf3 Nc6 d4 e6 Bc4 Bb4+ Bd2 d6 Bxd5 Bx
2. d4                .          0.00       0.32    Nf3 d5 e5 Nc6 d4 Nge7 Nc3 Ng6 Be3 Bb4 Bd3 O-O O-
2... d5              .          0.00       0.35    Nc6 d5 Ne5 Nf3 Nxf3+ Qxf3 Nf6 Nc3 Bb4 Bc4 exd5 e
3. Nd2          oooo .          0.32       0.23    exd5 exd5 Bb5+ Nc6 Nf3 Bd6 O-O Ne7 Nc3 O-O Re1 B
3... c5         xxx  .          0.24      -0.09    Nf6 e5 Nfd7 Ngf3 c5 c4 Nc6 cxd5 exd5 Bb5 cxd4 Nb
4. exd5              .          0.00       0.15    exd5 Qxd5 dxc5 Bxc5 Ngf3 Nf6 Bc4 Qc6 O-O Nbd7 Qe
4... Qxd5       x    .          0.06       0.24    Qxd5 dxc5 Bxc5 Ngf3 Nf6 Bc4 Qh5 O-O Nc6 Nb3 O-O 
5. Ngf3              .          0.00       0.30    dxc5 Bxc5 Ngf3 Nf6 Bc4 Qh5 O-O Nc6 Nb3 O-O Nxc5 
5... Nc6             .          0.00       0.48    cxd4 Bc4 Qc5 O-O Nc6 Qe2 a6 Ne4 Qb6 c3 Bd7 Re1 f
6. Bc4               .          0.00       0.47    Bc4 Qh5 Nb3 cxd4 Nbxd4 Bd7 O-O Nf6 Nb5 Rc8 Be2 Q
6... Qd7        xxx  .          0.15       0.47    Qh5 Nb3 cxd4 Nbxd4 Bd7 O-O Nf6 Nb5 Rc8 Be2 Qc5 B
7. Nb3               .          0.03       0.62    Nb3 cxd4 Nbxd4 Nxd4 Nxd4 Qc7 Qe2 Nf6 O-O Bc5 Nb5
7... cxd4            .          0.00       0.59    cxd4 O-O Nf6 Nbxd4 Bc5 Nxc6 Qxc6 Ne5 Qb6 c3 O-O 
8. O-O               .          0.00       0.50    O-O Nf6 Nbxd4 Bc5 Nxc6 Qxc6 Ne5 Qb6 c3 O-O Bd3 Q
8... Nf6             .          0.00       0.54    Nf6 Nbxd4 Nxd4 Nxd4 Qc7 Qe2 a6 Bg5 Be7 Rad1 O-O 
9. Nfxd4        oooo .          0.25       0.50    Nbxd4 Nxd4 Nxd4 Qc7 Qe2 a6 Nf5 b5 Bd3 Bb7 a4 g6 
9... Nxd4       xxx  .          0.23       0.25    Be7 Bb5 e5 Nf3 Qc7 Re1 Bg4 h3 Rd8 Bd2 Bxf3 Qxf3 
10. Nxd4             .          0.00       0.48    Nxd4 Qc7 Qe2 a6 Nf5 b5 Bb3 g6 Bg5 gxf5 Bxf6 Rg8 
10... a6             .          0.00       0.50    Qc7 Qe2 Bd7 Nb5 Qb6 c3 Rc8 Be3 Bc5 Rad1 O-O Nd6 
11. c3          oooo .          0.26       0.47    Bf4 b5 Be2 Bc5 Bf3 Nd5 Be5 O-O Be4 Bxd4 Qxd4 f6 
11... b5        xx   .          0.14       0.21    Bd6 Bd3 Qc7 g3 h6 Qf3 O-O Be3 Bd7 Rfd1 e5 Nf5 Bc
12. Bb3              .          0.00       0.35    Bb3 Bb7 a4 Bc5 axb5 O-O b6 Bxb6 Bf4 Rfd8 Be5 Be4
12... Bb7       x    .          0.07       0.40    Bb7 a4 Bc5 Be3 Qc7 axb5 O-O bxa6 Bxa6 Re1 e5 Nf5
13. Qe2         ooo  .          0.19       0.47    a4 Bc5 Be3 Qc7 axb5 O-O bxa6 Bxa6 Re1 Bb7 f3 Bd6
13... Be7       xxxx .          0.28       0.28    Bc5 Rd1 Qc7 Bc2 O-O Bg5 Be7 a4 b4 cxb4 h6 Bd2 Ra
14. Rd1         ooo  .          0.15       0.56    Rd1 Nd5 a4 O-O axb5 axb5 Rxa8 Rxa8 Nxb5 Bc6 Nd4 
14... Bd5       xxxx .          0.25       0.41    O-O Nf5 Qc7 Nxe7+ Qxe7 Be3 Rac8 a4 b4 c4 e5 f3 R
15. a4               .          0.00       0.66    Bg5 O-O Nf5 exf5 Bxf6 Bxf6 Rxd5 Rae8 Qd2 Qc6 Rxf
15... b4        xx   .          0.12       0.67    O-O Bxd5 exd5 axb5 axb5 Rxa8 Rxa8 Nxb5 Ra5 Nd4 B
16. Bxd5        o    .          0.08       0.79    c4 Bb7 Bf4 Bc5 Be5 Qe7 Bc2 Rd8 Nb3 Bd6 Bxd6 Rxd6
16... Qxd5           .          0.00       0.71    Qxd5 Bf4 Qe4 Qxe4 Nxe4 cxb4 Bxb4 f3 Nf6 Be5 Rc8 
17. Nc2         ooo  .          0.22       0.67    cxb4 Bxb4 Bf4 Qe4 Qxe4 Nxe4 Rac1 a5 Nc6 Bc5 Rc2 
17... Qb7            .          0.00       0.45    Qb7 Nxb4 Bxb4 cxb4 Qxb4 Bg5 O-O Bxf6 gxf6 Rd3 Rf
18. Nxb4             .          0.02       0.37    Nxb4 Bxb4 cxb4 Qxb4 Bg5 O-O Bxf6 gxf6 Rd3 Rfd8 b
18... Bxb4      xxx  .          0.19       0.35    Bxb4 cxb4 Qxb4 Bg5 O-O Bxf6 gxf6 Rd3 Rfd8 b3 Rxd
19. cxb4             .          0.00       0.54    cxb4 Qxb4 b3 Qxb3 Ba3 Rg8 Qe5 Qb6 Bc5 Qc6 Rac1 R
19... Qxb4           .          0.00       0.58    Qxb4 b3 Qe4 Qxe4 Nxe4 Bb2 Rb8 f3 Nf6 Bxf6 gxf6 R
20. b3               .          0.00       0.53    b3 Qxb3 Ba3 Qc3 Bd6 Qc6 Rac1 Qxa4 Rc7 Rd8 Re7+ K
20... Qb7            .          0.00       0.55    Qxb3 Ba3 Qc3 Bd6 Qc6 Rac1 Qxa4 Rc7 Rd8 Qf3 Nd7 B
21. Ba3              .          0.00       0.54    Rd3 O-O Bb2 Qe4 Qxe4 Nxe4 f3 Nf6 Bxf6 gxf6 b4 Ra
21... h5        xx   .          0.14       1.07    h5 Qe5 h4 h3 Rg8 Rac1 Nd5 Qg5 Qxb3 Bd6 Nf6 Be5 N
22. Qe5              .          0.00       1.21    Qe5 Rg8 Rd3 Rc8 Re1 Qb6 a5 Qb8 Qf5 Rc6 Bc5 h4 f4
22... h4        xxx  .          0.17       1.53    Rg8 Rd4 Rd8 Rxd8+ Kxd8 Rc1 Nd5 Qxh5 Ke8 Qh7 Nf6 
23. Rac1        oooooo          1.06       1.70    h3 Nd5 Qxg7 O-O-O Qe5 Qb8 Rac1+ Kb7 Qe2 Rdg8 Rd4
23... h3             .          0.00       0.64    h3 gxh3 Rh5 Qg3 Ne4 Rc7 Nxg3 Rxb7 Nf5 Rdd7 f6 Rf
24. f3          ooo  .          0.19       0.50    gxh3 Rh5 Qg3 Ne4 Rc7 Nxg3 Rxb7 Nf5 Kg2 f6 Rdd7 R
24... Qb6+           .          0.00       0.31    Qb6+ Bc5 Qb8 Qg5 hxg2 h4 Rh7 b4 Qb7 Kxg2 Rc8 Rc3
25. Bc5              .          0.02       0.28    Bc5 Qb8 Qg5 hxg2 h4 Rh7 Rc3 Qc7 Kxg2 Qb7 Rcd3 Rc
25... Qb8            .          0.00       0.26    Qb8 Qg5 hxg2 Rd6 O-O Rd2 Rd8 Rxg2 Ne8 b4 Rd3 Qg4
26. Qd4         oooo .          0.26       0.26    Qg5 hxg2 h4 Rh7 Rd3 Qb7 Kxg2 Rc8 Rcd1 Rh6 Rd7 Qx
26... Rh5            .          0.00       0.00    hxg2 Bd6 Qxb3 Rc7 Nd5 Rd3 Qb1+ Rd1 Qb3
27. Bd6         oooooo          0.89      -0.03    g4 Rd5 Qc3 Qb7 Rxd5 Qxd5 Ba3 Rb8 Qc7 Qd8 Qc6+ Nd
27... Qb7       xxxxxxxxx       3.00      -0.92    Qxb3 Rb1 Qa2 Rb2 Qd5 Qxd5 Rxd5 Rxd5 Nxd5 gxh3 O-
28. Rc7              .          0.00       4.78    Rc7 Qxc7 Bxc7 Rd5 Qa1 hxg2 Kxg2 Rxd1 Qxd1 Nd5 Qc
28... Qd5       xxxxxx          0.99       4.98    Qxc7 Bxc7 Rd5 Qa1 hxg2 Rxd5 Nxd5 Bg3 f6 Qc1 Ne7 
29. Re7+             .          0.00       5.97    Re7+ Kf8 Ra7+ Kg8 Qxd5 Rxa7 Qc6 hxg2 Kxg2 Rg5+ K
29... Kf8       x    .          0.07       6.02    Kf8 Ra7+ Kg8 Qxd5 Rxa7 Qc6 hxg2 Kxg2 Nd5 Kg3 g6 
30. Ra7+             .          0.00       6.09    Ra7+ Kg8 Qxd5 Rxa7 Qc6 hxg2 Kxg2 Nd5 Bb8 Re7 Kg3
30... Kg8       x    .          0.08       6.09    Kg8 Qxd5 Rxa7 Qc6 hxg2 Kxg2 Nd5 Bb8 Re7 Kg3 a5 B
31. Qxd5             .          0.00       6.17    Qxd5 Rxa7 Qc6 hxg2 Bb8 Re7 Rd8+ Kh7 Qc2+ Rf5 Be5
31... Rxa7      xx   .          0.15       6.20    Rxa7 Qc6 hxg2 Bb8 Re7 Rd8+ Kh7 Qc2+ Rf5 Be5 Nh5 
32. Qc6              .          0.00       6.35    Qc6 hxg2 Bb8 Re7 Rd8+ Kh7 Qc2+ Rf5 Be5 Nh5 Qe4 a
32... hxg2      xxx  .          0.16       6.35    hxg2 Bb8 Re7 Rd8+ Kh7 Qc2+ Rf5 Be5 Nh5 Qe4 a5 Kx
33. Bc5              .          0.00       6.51    Bb8 Re7 Rd8+ Kh7 Qc2+ Rf5 Be5 Nh5 Qe4 a5 Kxg2 Kg
                                           6.87

                               White      Black
Total error                     3.94       6.55
Evaluated moves                   33         32
Error/move                     0.119      0.205
Performancerating               2604       2035
 - positional &#40;err<0.70&#41;        2972       2831



                               DabbabaListPgnAnalyze 1.7 / Jens Bæk Nielsen

[pgn]
[White "A"]
[Black "P"]
[Resultat "1-0"]
1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 c5 4. exd5 Qxd5 5. Ngf3 Nc6 6. Bc4 Qd7 7. Nb3 cxd4
8. O-O Nf6 9. Nfxd4 Nxd4 10. Nxd4 a6 11. c3 b5 12. Bb3 Bb7 13. Qe2 Be7
14. Rd1 Bd5 15. a4 b4 16. Bxd5 Qxd5 17. Nc2 Qb7 18. Nxb4 Bxb4 19. cxb4 Qxb4
20. b3 Qb7 21. Ba3 h5 22. Qe5 h4 23. Rac1 h3 24. f3 Qb6+ 25. Bc5 Qb8
26. Qd4 Rh5 27. Bd6 Qb7 28. Rc7 Qd5 29. Re7+ Kf8 30. Ra7+ Kg8 31. Qxd5 Rxa7
32. Qc6 hxg2 33. Bc5 1-0
[/pgn]

[White "A"]
[Black "P"]
[Resultat "1-0"]
1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 c5 4. exd5 Qxd5 5. Ngf3 Nc6 6. Bc4 Qd7 7. Nb3 cxd4
8. O-O Nf6 9. Nfxd4 Nxd4 10. Nxd4 a6 11. c3 b5 12. Bb3 Bb7 13. Qe2 Be7
14. Rd1 Bd5 15. a4 b4 16. Bxd5 Qxd5 17. Nc2 Qb7 18. Nxb4 Bxb4 19. cxb4 Qxb4
20. b3 Qb7 21. Ba3 h5 22. Qe5 h4 23. Rac1 h3 24. f3 Qb6+ 25. Bc5 Qb8
26. Qd4 Rh5 27. Bd6 Qb7 28. Rc7 Qd5 29. Re7+ Kf8 30. Ra7+ Kg8 31. Qxd5 Rxa7
32. Qc6 hxg2 33. Bc5 1-0

[Uri Blass]

For your question I think that fruit2.1 is not good to get correct conclusions because it does not see deep enough.

For c3 and Bf4
The position is too complex even for computers to be sure about something.

Note that in many cases it is hard to know if a move is poor or not poor and if you suspect that the computer move is poor then I suggest simply to play against it in order to punish it for the poor move and if you fail you learn from experience why the move is not poor.

Here is stockfish's evaluations at depth 28-30

FEN: r1b1kb1r/1p1q1ppp/p3pn2/8/2BN4/8/PPP2PPP/R1BQ1RK1 w kq - 0 11

Stockfish_14030308_x64:

28/42 10:11 1,517,348,784 2,483,251 +0.21 c2-c3 Qd7-c7 Bc4-d3 Bf8-d6 g2-g3 h7-h6 Qd1-f3 Bd6-e5 Bc1-e3 O-O Rf1-e1 Rf8-d8 Ra1-d1 Bc8-d7 Qf3-e2 Be5-d6 Bd3-c2 Ra8-c8 a2-a4 Qc7-a5 Nd4-f5 Bd6-f8 Nf5-d6 Bf8xd6 Rd1xd6 Bd7-c6 b2-b4
28/42 10:11 1,517,348,784 2,483,251 +0.23 Bc1-f4 b7-b5 Bc4-b3 Bf8-c5 c2-c3 O-O Bf4-e5 Bc8-b7 Qd1-d3 Nf6-g4 Be5xg7 Qd7-c7 Qd3-h3 Kg8xg7 Qh3xg4+ Kg7-h8 Qg4-g3 Qc7xg3 h2xg3 Rf8-d8 Ra1-d1 Kh8-g7 Rf1-e1 Bc5xd4 c3xd4 Ra8-c8 f2-f3 Bb7-d5
28/42 10:11 1,517,348,784 2,483,251 +0.41 Bc4-b3 Bf8-c5 c2-c3 b7-b6 Rf1-e1 Bc5xd4 c3xd4 Bc8-b7 Bc1-g5 Ra8-d8 Bg5xf6 g7xf6 Qd1-g4
28/42 10:11 1,517,348,784 2,483,251 +0.43 Rf1-e1 Bf8-c5 c2-c3 b7-b5 Bc4-b3 Bc8-b7 Bc1-g5 Bc5xd4 c3xd4 Qd7-c6 f2-f3 O-O Qd1-d3 Nf6-d5 Ra1-c1 Qc6-d7 Rc1-c5 Rf8-c8 a2-a3 h7-h6 Bg5-d2 Nd5-f6 Qd3-e3 Bb7-d5 Bb3-c2
28/42 10:11 1,517,348,784 2,483,251 +0.49 Bc1-g5 b7-b5 Bc4-b3 Nf6-e4 Bg5-e3 Bc8-b7 a2-a4 b5-b4 Qd1-h5 Ne4-c5 Bb3-c4 Qd7-c7 Rf1-e1 g7-g6 Qh5-h3 Bf8-g7 Nd4xe6 Nc5xe6 Bc4xe6 O-O Be6-b3 Bg7xb2 Ra1-d1 Bb7-c6 Qh3-h4 Qc7-b7 f2-f3 Bb2-c3 Be3-d4
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
29/42 14:36 2,182,818,178 2,491,821 +0.15 Bc1-f4 b7-b5 Bc4-b3 Bf8-c5 c2-c3 O-O Bf4-e5 Bc8-b7 a2-a4 Qd7-e7 Bb3-c2 Nf6-d7 Be5-f4 b5-b4 Nd4-b3 b4xc3 b2xc3 Rf8-d8 Qd1-b1 g7-g6 Nb3-a5 Bb7-d5 c3-c4 Qe7-f6 c4xd5 Qf6xf4 d5xe6 Ra8-b8 e6xf7+ Qf4xf7 Na5-b3
29/42 14:36 2,182,818,178 2,491,821 +0.21 c2-c3 Qd7-c7 Bc4-d3 Bf8-d6 g2-g3 h7-h6 Qd1-f3 Bd6-e5 Bc1-e3 O-O Rf1-e1 Bc8-d7 Ra1-d1 Rf8-d8 Qf3-e2 Be5-d6 Bd3-c2 Ra8-c8 a2-a4 Qc7-a5 Nd4-f5 Bd6-f8 Nf5-d6 Bf8xd6 Rd1xd6 Bd7-c6 b2-b4
29/42 14:36 2,182,818,178 2,491,821 +0.37 Bc4-b3 Bf8-c5 c2-c3 b7-b6 Rf1-e1 Bc8-b7 Bc1-g5 Bc5xd4 c3xd4 Qd7-c6 f2-f3 Nf6-d5 Ra1-c1 Qc6-d7 Bb3-a4 b6-b5 Ba4-c2 Ra8-c8 a2-a3 O-O Qd1-d3 f7-f5 Qd3-e2 h7-h6 Bg5-h4 Rc8-c6 Bh4-g3 Rf8-c8
29/42 14:36 2,182,818,178 2,491,821 +0.41 Bc1-g5 b7-b5 Bc4-b3 Nf6-e4 Bg5-e3 Ne4-c5 Qd1-h5 Bc8-b7 c2-c4 Nc5xb3 a2xb3 Bf8-b4 Rf1-d1 O-O c4-c5 Qd7-d5 Qh5xd5 Bb7xd5 Nd4-c2 a6-a5 Nc2xb4 a5xb4 Rd1-c1 Ra8xa1 Rc1xa1 Bd5xb3 Be3-d2 Bb3-d5 Bd2xb4 Rf8-a8 Ra1xa8+ Bd5xa8 f2-f3
29/42 14:36 2,182,818,178 2,491,821 +0.43 Rf1-e1 Bf8-c5 c2-c3 b7-b5 Bc4-b3 Bc8-b7 Bc1-g5 Bc5xd4 c3xd4 Qd7-c6 f2-f3 O-O Qd1-d3 Nf6-d5 Ra1-c1 Qc6-d7 Rc1-c5 Ra8-c8 Bb3-c2 g7-g6 Qd3-a3 Rc8-a8 g2-g3 Rf8-c8 Bg5-d2 Nd5-f6 Qa3-d3
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
30/42 22:10 3,328,492,287 2,501,627 +0.11 c2-c3 Qd7-c7 Bc4-d3 Bf8-d6 g2-g3 h7-h6 Qd1-f3 Bd6-e5 Rf1-e1 O-O Qf3-e2 Be5-d6 Bc1-d2 Bc8-d7 Ra1-d1 Ra8-d8 c3-c4 e6-e5 Nd4-f5 e5-e4 Bd3xe4 Nf6xe4 Qe2xe4 Rf8-e8 Qe4-d3 Re8xe1+ Rd1xe1 Bd7xf5
30/42 22:10 3,328,492,287 2,501,627 +0.23 Bc1-f4 b7-b5 Bc4-b3 Bf8-c5 Bf4-e5 O-O c2-c3 Bc8-b7 a2-a4 b5-b4 c3xb4 Bc5-d6 Be5xd6 Qd7xd6 Nd4-c2 Bb7-d5 Bb3xd5 Nf6xd5 Qd1-d3 Rf8-c8 b4-b5 Qd6-c5 Nc2-d4 Qc5-c4 Qd3xc4 Rc8xc4
30/42 22:10 3,328,492,287 2,501,627 +0.43 Rf1-e1 Bf8-c5 c2-c3 b7-b5 Bc4-b3 Bc8-b7 Bc1-g5 Bc5xd4 c3xd4 Nf6-d5 Qd1-g4 O-O Ra1-c1 f7-f6 Bg5-d2
30/42 22:10 3,328,492,287 2,501,627 +0.45 Bc1-g5 b7-b5 Bc4-b3 Nf6-e4 Bg5-f4 Ne4-c5 Rf1-e1 Nc5xb3 a2xb3 Bf8-e7 Qd1-d3 g7-g5 Bf4-g3 O-O Ra1-d1 Rf8-d8 Qd3-e2 Bc8-b7 c2-c4 Ra8-c8 Nd4-f5 Qd7-e8 h2-h4 Rd8xd1 Nf5xe7+ Qe8xe7 Re1xd1 Rc8-d8 Rd1xd8+ Qe7xd8 Bg3-e5 Qd8-e7 Qe2-g4 f7-f6 Be5-c3
30/42 22:10 3,328,492,287 2,501,627 +0.54 Bc4-b3 Qd7-c7 Rf1-e1 Bc8-d7 g2-g3 Bf8-e7 Bc1-f4 Qc7-b6 c2-c3 O-O Qd1-f3 Rf8-d8 Ra1-d1 Ra8-c8 Bf4-e5 Rc8-c5 h2-h3 Rc5-c8 g3-g4 h7-h6 h3-h4 Bd7-e8 g4-g5 Nf6-d7 g5xh6 Nd7xe5 Re1xe5

[JBNielsen]

For c3 and Bf4
The position is too complex even for computers to be sure about something.

Note that in many cases it is hard to know if a move is poor or not poor and if you suspect that the computer move is poor then I suggest simply to play against it in order to punish it for the poor move and if you fail you learn from experience why the move is not poor.

It is hard to determine if a move is 0.20 weak by playing against a computer. You may easily make further errors in the following moves.
So it is hard to reach a conclusion.

But it is important to know if a move is 0.20 weaker than the best move. If you make such 5 weak moves your score is down 1.00 and you most likely have a lost position if your opponent has played perfect.

Computers are stronger than even Magnus Carlsen. So it must be possible to learn something from them.
If you analyze many of your games you might see a pattern in the moves you play wrong or a pattern in the computermoves you don't play...

I could try to analyze with Stockfish.........

[carldaman]

For c3 and Bf4
The position is too complex even for computers to be sure about something.

Note that in many cases it is hard to know if a move is poor or not poor and if you suspect that the computer move is poor then I suggest simply to play against it in order to punish it for the poor move and if you fail you learn from experience why the move is not poor.

It is hard to determine if a move is 0.20 weak by playing against a computer. You may easily make further errors in the following moves.
So it is hard to reach a conclusion.

But it is important to know if a move is 0.20 weaker than the best move. If you make such 5 weak moves your score is down 1.00 and you most likely have a lost position if your opponent has played perfect.

Computers are stronger than even Magnus Carlsen. So it must be possible to learn something from them.
If you analyze many of your games you might see a pattern in the moves you play wrong or a pattern in the computermoves you don't play...

I could try to analyze with Stockfish.........

Hi JB,

The new Stockfish is very strong all the way around and even has a knack for swindling lately

However, no engine is perfect, and much less _positionally_ perfect, but I have a soft spot for some older engines such as Deep Fritz 10.1 (last truly original version), and I know many are still fond of Komodo 4 (now free, by the way). Spike is a decent positional engine and so is Shredder 12.

Among older engine WChess had a nice style of play, but not sure if it was primarily positional in style. Such older engines were weaker (especially in endgame), but their moves could be more easily understood. In that same 2300-2400 range I also like Maverick.

Recently, the new Rhetoric 1.2 was released, with a very active style, often making positional sacrifices to get a lead in development. I highly recommend it.

Regards,
CL