Is it actually a draw?

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Milos
Posts: 4190
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:47 am

Is it actually a draw?

Post by Milos »

The position came out in yesterday's TCEC match between Fire and SF.
I believe Fire played the wrong move (57. ..Ke7 instead of Kg7), but the position was actually draw despite extremely high evaluation score by SF and H4.
I ran out the position on H4 with 6-men syz for 6 hours and after 400 billion nodes and 500 million TB hits it was absolutely incapable to make any progress despite +20 score.
Could someone actually explain how to win this position coz for me it looks really like a dead draw?
[d]8/5k2/5r2/1p3q2/5B2/5R2/Q6K/8 b - - 15 57
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Edsel Apostol
Posts: 803
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:53 am
Full name: Edsel Apostol

Re: Is it actually a draw?

Post by Edsel Apostol »

Fire seems to have blundered. It might not have resolved a fail low due to limited time and have played an inferior move. I've analyzed it in the latest dev version of Hannibal and that is the point where there is a big jump in eval in favor of white. Hannibal favored Kg7 instead of Ke7.

[D] 8/5k2/5r2/1p3q2/5B2/5R2/Q6K/8 b - - 15 57

Code: Select all

 20	00:01	 5,278k	4,195k	-0.44	Kf7-g7 Qa2-a7+ Kg7-g8 Qa7-a8+ Kg8-f7 Qa8-b7+ Kf7-g8 Rf3-g3+ Rf6-g6 Qb7-b8+ Kg8-f7 Qb8-c7+ Kf7-g8 Qc7-d8+ Kg8-f7 Bf4-g5 Qf5-e5 Qd8-d7+ Kf7-g8 Qd7-c8+ Kg8-f7 Qc8-b7+ Kf7-g8 Qb7-a8+ Kg8-h7
 21	00:02	 11,350k	5,047k	-0.41	Kf7-g7 Qa2-a7+ Kg7-g8 Qa7-a8+ Kg8-f7 Qa8-b7+ Kf7-g8 Rf3-g3+ Rf6-g6 Qb7-b8+ Kg8-f7 Qb8-c7+ Kf7-g8 Qc7-d8+ Kg8-f7 Bf4-g5 Qf5-e5 Kh2-g2 Qe5-e2+ Kg2-h1 Qe2-e1+ Rg3-g1 Qe1-e4+ Kh1-h2 Qe4-e5+ Rg1-g3
 22	00:02	 15,341k	5,136k	-0.42	Kf7-g7 Qa2-a7+ Kg7-g8 Qa7-a8+ Kg8-f7 Qa8-b7+ Kf7-g8 Qb7-b8+ Kg8-f7 Qb8-c7+ Kf7-g8 Rf3-g3+ Rf6-g6 Bf4-g5 Qf5-f2+ Rg3-g2 Qf2-f8 Qc7-d7 b5-b4 Qd7-d5+ Qf8-f7 Qd5-a8+ Qf7-f8 Qa8-b7 Qf8-d6+ Kh2-h1 Rg6-g7
 23	00:05	 33,446k	5,607k	-0.41	Kf7-g7 Qa2-a7+ Kg7-g8 Qa7-a8+ Kg8-f7 Qa8-b7+ Kf7-g8 Qb7-b8+ Kg8-f7 Qb8-c7+ Kf7-g8 Rf3-g3+ Rf6-g6 Bf4-g5 Qf5-f2+ Rg3-g2 Qf2-f8 Qc7-d7 b5-b4 Qd7-d5+ Qf8-f7 Qd5-a8+ Qf7-f8 Qa8-e4 Qf8-f7 Qe4xb4 Qf7-c7+ Kh2-h1
 24	00:14	 86,551k	5,962k	-0.41	Kf7-g7 Qa2-g2+ Kg7-f7 Qg2-f2 Qf5-e4 Qf2-a7+ Kf7-g8 Qa7-b8+ Kg8-f7 Qb8-c7+ Kf7-g8 Qc7-d8+ Kg8-f7 Qd8-d7+ Kf7-g8 Rf3-g3+ Rf6-g6 Qd7-d8+ Kg8-g7 Qd8-c7+ Kg7-g8 Qc7-c8+ Kg8-f7 Bf4-g5 Qe4-e2+ Kh2-g1
 25	00:16	 99,106k	5,981k	-0.42	Kf7-g7 Qa2-g2+ Kg7-f7 Qg2-f2 Kf7-g8 Qf2-b2 Kg8-f7 Qb2-b3+ Kf7-g7 Qb3-a2 Qf5-e4 Qa2-a7+ Kg7-g8 Qa7-b8+ Kg8-f7 Qb8-c7+ Kf7-g8 Rf3-g3+ Rf6-g6 Qc7-d8+ Kg8-g7 Qd8-d7+ Kg7-g8 Qd7-c8+ Kg8-f7 Bf4-g5 Qe4-e2+ Kh2-g1 Qe2-e4
 26	00:22	 132,355k	5,998k	-0.41	Kf7-g7 Qa2-g2+ Kg7-f7 Qg2-f2 Kf7-g8 Qf2-b2 Kg8-f7 Qb2-b3+ Kf7-g7 Qb3-a2 Qf5-e4 Qa2-a7+ Kg7-g8 Qa7-b8+ Kg8-f7 Qb8-c7+ Kf7-g8 Rf3-g3+ Rf6-g6 Qc7-c8+ Kg8-f7 Qc8-d7+ Kf7-g8 Qd7-d8+ Kg8-f7 Bf4-g5 Qe4-e2+ Kh2-g1 b5-b4
 27	00:35	 215,065k	6,020k	-0.41	Kf7-g7 Qa2-g2+ Kg7-f7 Qg2-f2 Kf7-g8 Qf2-b2 Kg8-f7 Qb2-b3+ Kf7-g7 Qb3-a2 Qf5-e4 Qa2-a7+ Kg7-g8 Qa7-b8+ Kg8-f7 Qb8-c7+ Kf7-g8 Rf3-g3+ Rf6-g6 Qc7-c8+ Kg8-f7 Qc8-d7+ Kf7-g8 Qd7-d8+ Kg8-f7 Bf4-g5 Qe4-e2+ Rg3-g2 Qe2-e5+ Rg2-g3 b5-b4
 28	00:48	 293,252k	6,097k	-0.41	Kf7-g7 Qa2-g2+ Kg7-f7 Qg2-f2 Kf7-g8 Qf2-b2 Kg8-f7 Qb2-b3+ Kf7-g7 Qb3-a2 Qf5-e4 Qa2-a7+ Kg7-g8 Qa7-b8+ Kg8-f7 Qb8-c7+ Kf7-g8 Qc7-c8+ Kg8-f7 Qc8-d7+ Kf7-g8 Rf3-g3+ Rf6-g6 Qd7-d8+ Kg8-f7 Qd8-c7+ Kf7-g8 Qc7-c8+ Kg8-f7 Bf4-g5 Qe4-e2+ Kh2-g1 Qe2-e4
 29	00:57	 349,369k	6,111k	-0.42	Kf7-g7 Qa2-g2+ Kg7-f7 Qg2-f2 Kf7-g8 Qf2-b2 Kg8-f7 Qb2-b3+ Kf7-g7 Qb3-a2 Qf5-e4 Qa2-a7+ Kg7-g8 Qa7-b8+ Kg8-f7 Qb8-c7+ Kf7-g8 Rf3-g3+ Rf6-g6 Qc7-b8+ Kg8-f7 Qb8-a7+ Kf7-g8 Qa7-a2+ Kg8-f8 Bf4-g5 Rg6-e6 Qa2-a7 Qe4-e2+ Rg3-g2 Qe2-f3
 30	02:21	 895,953k	6,319k	-0.41	Kf7-g7 Qa2-g2+ Kg7-f7 Qg2-f2 Kf7-g8 Qf2-b2 Kg8-f7 Qb2-b3+ Kf7-g7 Qb3-a2 Qf5-e4 Qa2-a7+ Kg7-g8 Qa7-b8+ Kg8-f7 Qb8-c7+ Kf7-g8 Qc7-c8+ Kg8-f7 Qc8-d7+ Kf7-g8 Qd7-d8+ Kg8-g7 Rf3-g3+ Rf6-g6 Bf4-h6+ Kg7-h7 Bh6-g5 Qe4-e2+ Kh2-g1 Qe2-e1+ Kg1-g2 Qe1-e2+ Kg2-h1 Qe2-e1+ Rg3-g1 Qe1-e5 Qd8-d3
[D] 8/4k3/5r2/1p3q2/5B2/5R2/Q6K/8 w - - 16 58

Code: Select all

20	00:00	 2,832k	4,760k	+6.08	Qa2-a7+ Ke7-e8 Rf3-e3+ Rf6-e6 Qa7-b8+ Ke8-f7 Qb8-c7+ Kf7-g6 Re3-g3+ Kg6-h5 Rg3-g5+ Qf5xg5 Bf4xg5 Kh5xg5 Qc7-c5+ Kg5-f4 Qc5xb5 Re6-e4 Qb5-b6 Re4-e2+ Kh2-h3 Re2-e3+ Kh3-h4 Re3-e5 Qb6-d4+ Re5-e4 Qd4-f6+ Kf4-e3+ Kh4-g3 Ke3-d3 Qf6-d6+ Re4-d4 Qd6-e5
 21	00:00	 3,753k	4,887k	+6.26	Qa2-a7+ Ke7-e8 Rf3-e3+ Rf6-e6 Qa7-b8+ Ke8-f7 Qb8-c7+ Kf7-g6 Re3-g3+ Kg6-h5 Rg3-g5+ Qf5xg5 Bf4xg5 Kh5xg5 Kh2-g3 Kg5-f5 Qc7-d7 b5-b4 Qd7-b5+ Re6-e5 Qb5xb4 Re5-e3+ Kg3-f2 Re3-e4 Qb4-c5+ Re4-e5 Qc5-c4 Re5-a5 Qc4-c2+ Kf5-f6 Qc2-c6+ Kf6-f5
 22	00:01	 5,448k	5,082k	+6.33	Qa2-a7+ Ke7-e8 Rf3-e3+ Rf6-e6 Qa7-b8+ Ke8-f7 Qb8-c7+ Kf7-g6 Re3-g3+ Kg6-h5 Rg3-g5+ Qf5xg5 Bf4xg5 Kh5xg5 Kh2-g3 Re6-e3+ Kg3-f2 Re3-e6 Qc7-c5+ Kg5-f4 Qc5xb5 Re6-e4 Qb5-d5 Re4-e7 Qd5-d4+ Kf4-f5 Kf2-f3 Re7-e5 Qd4-c3 Re5-d5 Qc3-c4 Kf5-e6
 23	00:01	 7,881k	5,244k	+6.55	Qa2-a7+ Ke7-e8 Rf3-e3+ Rf6-e6 Qa7-b8+ Ke8-f7 Qb8-c7+ Kf7-g6 Re3-g3+ Kg6-h5 Rg3-g5+ Qf5xg5 Bf4xg5 Kh5xg5 Kh2-g3 Kg5-f5 Qc7-d7 Kf5-e5 Qd7xb5+ Ke5-d4 Qb5-b4+ Kd4-d5 Kg3-f3 Re6-f6+ Kf3-e3 Rf6-e6+ Ke3-d3 Re6-e5 Qb4-c4+ Kd5-d6 Kd3-d4 Re5-f5 Qc4-a6+ Kd6-d7 Qa6-g6
 24	00:02	 11,848k	5,452k	+6.60	Qa2-a7+ Ke7-e8 Rf3-e3+ Rf6-e6 Qa7-b8+ Ke8-f7 Qb8-c7+ Kf7-g6 Re3-g3+ Kg6-h5 Rg3-g5+ Qf5xg5 Bf4xg5 Kh5xg5 Kh2-g3 Re6-e3+ Kg3-f2 Re3-e6 Qc7-c5+ Kg5-f4 Qc5xb5 Re6-e5 Qb5-c4+ Kf4-g5 Qc4-c6 Kg5-g4 Qc6-d7+ Kg4-f4 Qd7-d4+ Kf4-f5 Kf2-f3 Kf5-e6 Kf3-f4 Re5-b5 Kf4-e4 Ke6-e7 Qd4-c4
 25	00:03	 18,172k	5,460k	+8.36	Qa2-a7+ Ke7-e8 Rf3-e3+ Rf6-e6 Qa7-b8+ Ke8-f7 Qb8-c7+ Kf7-e8 Qc7-c8+ Ke8-f7 Qc8-d7+ Kf7-f6 Bf4-g5+ Kf6xg5 Qd7xe6 Qf5-f2+ Kh2-h3 Qf2-f1+ Kh3-g3 Qf1-g1+ Kg3-f3 Qg1-f1+ Kf3-e4 Qf1-b1+ Ke4-d4 Qb1-b4+ Kd4-d3 Qb4-b1+ Kd3-c3 Qb1-a1+ Kc3-b4 Qa1-a4+ Kb4-c5 Qa4-a7+ Kc5xb5 Qa7-b7+ Kb5-c5 Qb7-c7+ Kc5-d4 Qc7-f4+ Re3-e4 Qf4-f2+ Kd4-d5 Qf2-f5+ Qe6xf5+ Kg5xf5
 26	00:04	 23,147k	5,592k	+8.24	Qa2-a7+ Ke7-e8 Rf3-e3+ Rf6-e6 Qa7-b8+ Ke8-f7 Qb8-c7+ Kf7-e8 Qc7-c8+ Ke8-f7 Qc8-d7+ Kf7-f6 Bf4-g5+ Kf6xg5 Qd7xe6 Qf5-f2+ Kh2-h3 Qf2-f1+ Kh3-g3 Qf1-g1+ Kg3-f3 Qg1-f1+ Kf3-e4 Qf1-b1+ Ke4-d5 Qb1-a2+ Kd5-d4 Qa2-a7+ Kd4-d3 Qa7-a3+ Kd3-e2 Qa3-b2+ Ke2-f3 Qb2-a1 Qe6-e5+ Qa1xe5 Re3xe5+ Kg5-f6 Re5xb5
 27	00:05	 28,952k	5,691k	+8.36	Qa2-a7+ Ke7-e8 Rf3-e3+ Rf6-e6 Qa7-b8+ Ke8-f7 Qb8-c7+ Kf7-e8 Qc7-c8+ Ke8-f7 Qc8-d7+ Kf7-f6 Bf4-g5+ Kf6xg5 Qd7xe6 Qf5-f2+ Kh2-h3 Qf2-f1+ Kh3-g3 Qf1-g1+ Kg3-f3 Qg1-f1+ Kf3-e4 Qf1-b1+ Ke4-d4 Qb1-b4+ Kd4-d3 Qb4-b1+ Kd3-c3 Qb1-a1+ Kc3-b4 Qa1-a4+ Kb4-c5 Qa4-a7+ Kc5xb5 Qa7-b7+ Kb5-c5 Qb7-c7+ Kc5-d4 Qc7-f4+ Re3-e4 Qf4-f2+ Kd4-d5 Qf2-f5+ Qe6xf5+ Kg5xf5
 28	00:06	 40,546k	6,002k	+8.36	Qa2-a7+ Ke7-e8 Rf3-e3+ Rf6-e6 Qa7-b8+ Ke8-f7 Qb8-c7+ Kf7-e8 Qc7-c8+ Ke8-f7 Qc8-d7+ Kf7-f6 Bf4-g5+ Kf6xg5 Qd7xe6 Qf5-f2+ Kh2-h3 Qf2-f1+ Kh3-g3 Qf1-g1+ Kg3-f3 Qg1-f1+ Kf3-e4 Qf1-b1+ Ke4-d4 Qb1-b4+ Kd4-d3 Qb4-b1+ Kd3-c3 Qb1-a1+ Kc3-b4 Qa1-a4+ Kb4-c5 Qa4-a7+ Kc5xb5 Qa7-b7+ Kb5-c5 Qb7-c7+ Kc5-d4 Qc7-f4+ Re3-e4 Qf4-f2+ Kd4-d5 Qf2-f5+ Qe6xf5+ Kg5xf5
 29	00:09	 59,068k	6,173k	+8.36	Qa2-a7+ Ke7-e8 Rf3-e3+ Rf6-e6 Qa7-b8+ Ke8-f7 Qb8-c7+ Kf7-e8 Qc7-c8+ Ke8-f7 Qc8-d7+ Kf7-f6 Bf4-g5+ Kf6xg5 Qd7xe6 Qf5-f2+ Kh2-h3 Qf2-f1+ Kh3-g3 Qf1-g1+ Kg3-f3 Qg1-f1+ Kf3-e4 Qf1-b1+ Ke4-d4 Qb1-b4+ Kd4-d3 Qb4-b1+ Kd3-c3 Qb1-a1+ Kc3-b4 Qa1-a4+ Kb4-c5 Qa4-a7+ Kc5xb5 Qa7-b7+ Kb5-c4 Qb7-c7+ Kc4-d4 Qc7-f4+ Re3-e4 Qf4-f2+ Kd4-d5 Qf2-f5+ Qe6xf5+ Kg5xf5
 30	00:43	 313,558k	7,201k	+8.34	Qa2-a7+ Ke7-e8 Rf3-e3+ Rf6-e6 Qa7-b8+ Ke8-f7 Qb8-c7+ Kf7-e8 Qc7-c8+ Ke8-f7 Qc8-d7+ Kf7-f6 Bf4-g5+ Kf6xg5 Qd7xe6 Qf5-f2+ Kh2-h3 Qf2-f1+ Kh3-g3 Qf1-g1+ Kg3-f3 Qg1-f1+ Kf3-e4 Qf1-b1+ Ke4-d4 Qb1-b4+ Kd4-d3 Qb4-b1+ Kd3-c3 b5-b4+ Kc3-c4 Qb1-a2+ Re3-b3 Qa2-c2+ Kc4xb4 Qc2-d2+ Kb4-c5 Qd2-f2+ Kc5-d6
 31	00:48	 347,261k	7,124k	+8.69	Qa2-a7+ Ke7-e8 Rf3-e3+ Rf6-e6 Qa7-b8+ Ke8-f7 Qb8-c7+ Kf7-e8 Qc7-c8+ Ke8-f7 Qc8-d7+ Kf7-f6 Bf4-g5+ Kf6xg5 Qd7xe6 Qf5-f2+ Kh2-h3 Qf2-f1+ Kh3-g3 Qf1-g1+ Kg3-f3 Qg1-f1+ Kf3-e4 Qf1-b1+ Ke4-d5 Qb1-a2+ Kd5-c5 Qa2-a7+ Kc5xb5 Qa7-b7+ Kb5-c4 Qb7-c7+ Kc4-d3 Qc7-h7+ Re3-e4 Qh7-f5 Qe6xf5+ Kg5xf5 Kd3-d4 Kf5-f6 Re4-e5 Kf6-g6 Re5-b5 Kg6-f6
 32	00:56	 400,144k	7,117k	+8.79	Qa2-a7+ Ke7-e8 Rf3-e3+ Rf6-e6 Qa7-b8+ Ke8-f7 Qb8-c7+ Kf7-e8 Qc7-c8+ Ke8-f7 Qc8-d7+ Kf7-f6 Bf4-g5+ Kf6xg5 Qd7xe6 Qf5-f2+ Kh2-h3 Qf2-f1+ Kh3-g3 Qf1-g1+ Kg3-f3 Qg1-f1+ Kf3-e4 Qf1-b1+ Ke4-d5 Qb1-a2+ Kd5-c5 Qa2-a7+ Kc5xb5 Qa7-b7+ Kb5-c4 Qb7-c7+ Kc4-d3 Qc7-h7+ Re3-e4 Qh7-g6 Qe6xg6+ Kg5xg6 Re4-f4 Kg6-g5 Kd3-e3
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Edsel Apostol
Posts: 803
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:53 am
Full name: Edsel Apostol

Re: Is it actually a draw?

Post by Edsel Apostol »

I actually have let Hannibal defend the position against Gull and Gull seems to find a win. Key move is Rh3.

You can try pitting SF as white and Houdini/Komodo as black to see how the top engines progress from this position.

[D] 8/5k2/5r2/1p3q2/5B2/5R2/Q6K/8 b - - 15 57
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zullil
Posts: 6442
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 12:31 am
Location: PA USA
Full name: Louis Zulli

Re: Is it actually a draw?

Post by zullil »

Milos wrote:The position came out in yesterday's TCEC match between Fire and SF.
I believe Fire played the wrong move (57. ..Ke7 instead of Kg7), but the position was actually draw despite extremely high evaluation score by SF and H4.
I ran out the position on H4 with 6-men syz for 6 hours and after 400 billion nodes and 500 million TB hits it was absolutely incapable to make any progress despite +20 score.
Could someone actually explain how to win this position coz for me it looks really like a dead draw?
[d]8/5k2/5r2/1p3q2/5B2/5R2/Q6K/8 b - - 15 57
Latest Stockfish:

Code: Select all

info depth 48 seldepth 89 score cp -2588 nodes 3833506837 nps 10050486 time 381425 multipv 1 pv f7g7 a2a7 g7g8 a7b8 g8f7 b8c7 f7g8 f3g3 f6g6 g3h3 g6f6 c7b8 g8f7 b8a7 f7g8 a7a2 g8g7 a2g2 g7f7 h3h4 f5f4 h4f4 f6f4 g2d5 f7f6 h2g3 f4c4 d5b5 c4d4 b5c5 d4d8 c5e3 f6f5 g3f3 d8d1 e3e4 f5f6 f3g3 d1d6 g3f4 d6e6 e4b4 f6g7 b4b7 g7g6 b7d7 e6b6 d7d3 g6f7 d3c4 f7g6 c4c2 g6h6 c2h2 h6g7 h2g1 b6g6 g1d4 g7g8 f4f5 g8h7 d4h4 g6h6 h4e7 h7g8 e7e8 g8g7 f5g5 h6h7 e8e5 g7f8 e5f6 f8e8 f6e6 h7e7 e6g8 e8d7 g5f6 e7e8 g8d5 d7c7 d5a5 c7d6 a5b4 d6d7 b4b5 d7d8 b5g5 d8c8 g5g4 c8d8 g4d4 d8c8 d4c4 c8d8 c4b5 e8f8 f6e6 f8e8 e6d6
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kranium
Posts: 2129
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 10:43 am

Re: Is it actually a draw?

Post by kranium »

Milos wrote:The position came out in yesterday's TCEC match between Fire and SF.
I believe Fire played the wrong move (57. ..Ke7 instead of Kg7), but the position was actually draw despite extremely high evaluation score by SF and H4.
I ran out the position on H4 with 6-men syz for 6 hours and after 400 billion nodes and 500 million TB hits it was absolutely incapable to make any progress despite +20 score.
Could someone actually explain how to win this position coz for me it looks really like a dead draw?
[d]8/5k2/5r2/1p3q2/5B2/5R2/Q6K/8 b - - 15 57
FEN: 8/5k2/5r2/1p3q2/5B2/5R2/Q6K/8 b - - 0 57

Hi Milos,

I sent Martin version 3.2 (with tablebase support) last month, but decided not to use it because I hadn't had enough time to test it as much as I wanted...
well, turns out it does a much better job with this difficult position than 3.1 (which is without TBs), see depths 25 and 26 below

Fire 3.2 x64 Release:

Code: Select all

   1	00:00	         436	0	-0.59	Kf7-f8
   1	00:00	         970	0	-0.46	Rf6-e6
   2	00:00	       1,161	0	-0.46	Rf6-e6 Kh2-g3
   3	00:00	       3,318	0	-0.50	Rf6-e6 Kh2-g3 Kf7-g6 Qa2-b2
   4	00:00	       3,760	0	-0.50	Rf6-e6 Kh2-g3 Kf7-g6 Qa2-b2
   5	00:00	       6,242	0	-0.56	Rf6-e6 Kh2-g3 Kf7-g6 Qa2-b2 Re6-e4
   5	00:00	       9,753	0	-0.49	Qf5-e6 Qa2-a7+ Kf7-g6 Rf3-e3 Qe6-g4 Re3-g3
   6	00:00	      17,075	0	-0.38	Rf6-e6 Kh2-g3 Kf7-g6 Qa2-a3 Re6-e4 Qa3-d6+ Qf5-e6
   7	00:00	      52,641	3,290,000	-0.43	Kf7-g7 Qa2-a7+ Kg7-g8 Qa7-b8+ Kg8-f7 Qb8-c7+ Kf7-g8 Qc7-d8+ Kg8-f7 Qd8-d4 Rf6-g6
   8	00:00	      75,533	2,436,000	-0.44	Kf7-g7 Qa2-a7+ Kg7-g8 Qa7-b8+ Kg8-f7 Qb8-c7+ Kf7-g8 Kh2-g2 Rf6-g6+ Kg2-f1 b5-b4 Qc7-c4+ Qf5-e6 Qc4xb4
   9	00:00	     111,531	3,597,000	-0.44	Kf7-g7 Qa2-a7+ Kg7-g8 Qa7-b8+ Kg8-f7 Qb8-b7+ Kf7-g8 Qb7-a8+ Kg8-f7 Qa8-a2+
  10	00:00	     295,460	6,286,000	-0.50	Kf7-g7 Kh2-g3 Qf5-e6 Qa2-a1 Kg7-f7 Qa1-d4 Qe6-c4 Qd4-d7+ Kf7-g8 Qd7-e8+ Kg8-h7 Qe8-e7+ Kh7-g6
  11	00:00	     701,308	7,460,000	-0.50	Kf7-g7 Qa2-g2+ Kg7-f7 Qg2-a2+
  12	00:00	   1,353,578	9,599,000	-0.53	Kf7-g7 Qa2-b2 Kg7-g8 Qb2-b3+ Kg8-g7 Kh2-g2 Qf5-e4 Qb3xb5 Rf6-g6+ Bf4-g5 Rg6-c6 Bg5-e3 Rc6-c2+ Be3-f2 Qe4-g4+ Rf3-g3
  13	00:00	   2,110,002	9,634,000	-0.53	Kf7-g7 Qa2-g2+ Kg7-f7 Qg2-a2+
  14	00:00	   5,200,565	11,900,000	-0.55	Kf7-g7 Qa2-b2 Kg7-g8 Qb2-b3+ Rf6-e6 Kh2-g1 Kg8-h7 Qb3-c3 Re6-f6 Qc3-d4 Qf5-b1+ Kg1-h2 Qb1-c2+ Rf3-f2 Qc2-f5 Kh2-g1 Qf5-g4+ Kg1-f1 Qg4-h3+ Kf1-e1
  15	00:00	   6,769,908	12,046,000	-0.56	Kf7-g7 Qa2-a7+ Kg7-g8 Qa7-b8+ Kg8-f7 Qb8-c7+ Kf7-g8 Rf3-g3+ Rf6-g6 Rg3-h3 Rg6-f6 Qc7-b8+ Kg8-f7 Qb8-c7+ Kf7-g8
  16	00:00	   7,787,100	12,167,000	-0.56	Kf7-g7 Qa2-a7+ Kg7-g8 Qa7-b8+ Kg8-f7 Qb8-c7+ Kf7-g8 Rf3-g3+ Rf6-g6 Rg3-h3 Rg6-f6 Qc7-b8+ Kg8-f7 Qb8-c7+ Kf7-g8
  17	00:01	   9,857,300	12,154,000	-0.64	Kf7-g7 Qa2-a7+ Kg7-g8 Qa7-b8+ Kg8-f7 Qb8-c7+ Kf7-g8 Rf3-g3+ Rf6-g6 Rg3-h3 Rg6-g4 Qc7-b8+ Kg8-f7 Qb8-a7+ Kf7-g8 Qa7-a8+ Kg8-f7 Qa8-a2+ Kf7-g7 Qa2-b2+ Kg7-f7 Qb2-b3+ Kf7-f6 Rh3-h6+ Rg4-g6 Qb3-c3+ Kf6-e6 Qc3-c8+ Ke6-f6 Qc8-c3+
  18	00:01	  12,557,433	12,384,000	-0.64	Kf7-g7 Qa2-a7+ Kg7-g8 Qa7-b8+ Kg8-f7 Qb8-c7+ Kf7-g8 Rf3-g3+ Rf6-g6 Rg3-h3 Rg6-g4 Qc7-b8+ Kg8-f7 Qb8-a7+ Kf7-g8 Qa7-a8+ Kg8-f7 Qa8-a2+ Kf7-g7 Qa2-b2+ Kg7-f7 Qb2-b3+ Kf7-f6 Rh3-h6+ Rg4-g6 Qb3-c3+ Kf6-e6 Qc3-c6+ Ke6-f7 Qc6-c7+ Kf7-e6 Qc7-c8+ Ke6-f6 Qc8-c3+
  19	00:01	  18,280,439	12,873,000	-0.64	Kf7-g7 Qa2-a7+ Kg7-g8 Qa7-b8+ Kg8-f7 Qb8-c7+ Kf7-g8 Rf3-g3+ Rf6-g6 Rg3-h3 Rg6-g4 Qc7-b8+ Kg8-f7 Qb8-a7+ Kf7-g8 Qa7-a8+ Kg8-f7 Qa8-a2+ Kf7-g7 Qa2-b2+ Kg7-f7 Qb2-b3+ Kf7-f6 Rh3-h6+ Rg4-g6 Qb3-c3+ Kf6-e6 Qc3-c6+ Ke6-f7 Qc6-c7+ Kf7-e6 Qc7-c8+ Ke6-f6 Qc8-c3+
  20	00:02	  26,606,775	13,119,000	-0.64	Kf7-g7 Qa2-a7+ Kg7-g8 Qa7-b8+ Kg8-f7 Qb8-c7+ Kf7-g8 Rf3-g3+ Rf6-g6 Rg3-h3 Rg6-g4 Qc7-b8+ Kg8-f7 Qb8-a7+ Kf7-g8 Qa7-a8+ Kg8-f7 Qa8-a2+ Kf7-g7 Qa2-b2+ Kg7-f7 Qb2-b3+ Kf7-f6 Rh3-h6+ Rg4-g6 Qb3-c3+ Kf6-e6 Qc3-c6+ Ke6-f7 Qc6-c7+ Kf7-e6 Qc7-b6+ Ke6-f7 Qb6-b7+ Kf7-f6 Qb7-c6+ Kf6-f7
  21	00:07	 104,625,288	15,242,000	-0.64	Kf7-g7 Qa2-a7+ Kg7-g8 Qa7-a8+ Kg8-f7 Qa8-a2+
  22	00:09	 132,048,549	14,929,000	-0.64	Kf7-g7 Qa2-a7+ Kg7-g8 Qa7-a8+ Kg8-f7 Qa8-a2+
  23	00:12	 182,659,207	14,802,000	-0.64	Kf7-g7 Qa2-a7+ Kg7-g8 Qa7-a8+ Kg8-f7 Qa8-a2+
  24	00:26	 340,184,014	12,872,000	-1.19	Kf7-g7 Qa2-a7+ Kg7-g8 Rf3-g3+ Rf6-g6 Qa7-b8+ Kg8-f7 Qb8-c7+ Kf7-g8 Rg3-h3 Rg6-f6 Qc7-b8+ Kg8-f7 Qb8-b7+ Kf7-g8 Qb7-g2+ Kg8-f7 Rh3-h4 b5-b4 Bf4-g3 b4-b3 Qg2-b7+ Kf7-g8 Qb7xb3+ Qf5-e6 Rh4-g4+ Kg8-h7 Qb3-b7+ Rf6-f7 Rg4-h4+ Kh7-g8 Qb7-a8+ Rf7-f8 Qa8-g2 Qe6-g6 Qg2-d5+ Rf8-f7 Bg3-e5 Qg6-c2+ Kh2-h3 Qc2-f5+ Rh4-g4+ Kg8-h7 Kh3-h4 Qf5-f2+ Rg4-g3 Qf2-h2+ Rg3-h3
  25	01:55	1,575,527,428	13,625,000	-5.53	Kf7-g7 Qa2-a7+ Kg7-g8 Rf3-g3+ Rf6-g6 Qa7-b8+ Kg8-f7 Qb8-c7+ Kf7-g8 Rg3-h3 Rg6-f6 Qc7-b8+ Kg8-f7 Qb8-b7+ Kf7-g8 Qb7-g2+ Kg8-f7 Rh3-h4 b5-b4 Bf4-g3 b4-b3 Qg2-b7+ Kf7-g8 Qb7xb3+ Qf5-e6 Rh4-g4+ Kg8-h7 Qb3-b7+ Rf6-f7 Rg4-h4+ Kh7-g8 Qb7-a8+ Rf7-f8 Qa8-g2 Qe6-g6 Qg2-a2+ Rf8-f7 Qa2-c4 Qg6-f5 Rh4-g4+ Kg8-h8 Qc4-d4+ Kh8-h7 Rg4-h4+ Kh7-g6 Qd4-h8 Rf7-e7 Qh8-h6+ Kg6-f7 Rh4-f4 Re7-e2+ Kh2-g1 Re2-g2+ Kg1xg2
  26	19:30	20,493,795,721	17,516,000	-13.34	Kf7-g7 Qa2-a7+ Kg7-g8 Rf3-g3+ Rf6-g6 Qa7-b8+ Kg8-f7 Qb8-c7+ Kf7-g8 Rg3-h3 Rg6-f6 Qc7-b8+ Kg8-f7 Qb8-b7+ Kf7-g8 Qb7-g2+ Kg8-f7 Rh3-h4 b5-b4 Bf4-g3 b4-b3 Qg2-b7+ Kf7-g8 Qb7xb3+ Qf5-e6 Rh4-g4+ Kg8-h7 Qb3-b7+ Rf6-f7 Rg4-h4+ Kh7-g8 Qb7-a8+ Rf7-f8 Qa8-g2 Qe6-g6 Qg2-a2+ Rf8-f7 Qa2-c4 Qg6-f5 Rh4-g4+ Kg8-h8 Qc4-d4+ Kh8-h7 Rg4-h4+ Kh7-g6 Qd4-h8 Rf7-e7 Qh8-h6+ Kg6-f7 Rh4-f4 Re7-e2+ Kh2-g1 Kf7-g8 Rf4xf5 Re2-g2+ Kg1-f1 Rg2-g1+ Kf1-e2 Rg1-e1+
I don't know however if it would have changed the result of this game however, as Stockfish plays extremely strong endgames even without TBs, and searches much deeper than any other engine at present...

Anyway, if Fire goes through, I'll probably let 3.2 finish the tournament...

Best regards,
Norm

PS- It's been a long time, hope all is well, would love to have you back on the team!
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User avatar
Houdini
Posts: 1471
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:00 am

Re: Is it actually a draw?

Post by Houdini »

Milos wrote:Could someone actually explain how to win this position coz for me it looks really like a dead draw?
Just play out Houdini's PV, +20 for Houdini is definitely a win...
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Milos
Posts: 4190
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:47 am

Re: Is it actually a draw?

Post by Milos »

Houdini wrote:
Milos wrote:Could someone actually explain how to win this position coz for me it looks really like a dead draw?
Just play out Houdini's PV, +20 for Houdini is definitely a win...
Problem is there is not much PV, and most of it is just shuffling. Maybe analysis output would help:

Code: Select all

FEN: 8/Q5k1/5r2/1p3q2/5B2/5R2/7K/8 b - - 17 58 

Houdini 4 Pro x64:
  4/14	00:00	       1'099	0	-3.09	Kg6 Rg3+ Kh5 Rh3+ Qxh3+ Kxh3 Rxf4 Qc5+ Kg6 Qxb5 Kf7
  5/14	00:00	       1'296	0	-3.09	Kg6 Rg3+ Kh5 Rh3+ Qxh3+ Kxh3 Rxf4 Qc5+ Kg6 Qxb5 Kf7
  6/14	00:00	       1'634	0	-3.09	Kg6 Rg3+ Kh5 Rh3+ Qxh3+ Kxh3 Rxf4 Qc5+ Kg6 Qxb5 Kf7
  7/17	00:00	       2'839	2'839'000	-3.22	Kg6 Rg3+ Kh5 Rh3+ Qxh3+ Kxh3 Rxf4 Qc5+ Kg6 Qxb5 Rf5 Qc6+ Kg5
  8/19	00:00	       5'161	469'000	-3.33	Kg6 Rg3+ Kh5 Rh3+ Qxh3+ Kxh3 Rxf4 Qc5+ Kg6 Qxb5 Rf5 Qd3
  9/25	00:00	      36'961	1'155'000	-3.77	Kg6 Rg3+ Kh5 Rh3+ Qxh3+ Kxh3 Rxf4 Qc5+ Kg6 Qxb5 Rf5 Qd3 Kf6 Kg4 Re5 Qd6+ Re6 Qd4+ Re5
 10/25	00:00	      99'064	2'153'000	-3.82	Kg6 Rg3+ Kh5 Rh3+ Qxh3+ Kxh3 Rxf4 Qc5+ Kh6 Kg3 Rf6 Qxb5 Rd6 Qc5 Rg6+ Kf4 Rf6+ Ke5 Kg6 Qc2+ Kg7
 11/25-	00:00	     104'332	1'932'000	-3.98	Kg6 Rg3+
 11/25-	00:00	     105'862	1'764'000	-4.30	Kg6 Rg3+
 11/25-	00:00	     109'239	1'316'000	-7.40	Kg6 Rg3+
 11/29	00:00	     441'950	3'809'000	-10.09	Kg6 Rg3+ Kh5 Rh3+ Qxh3+ Kxh3 Kg6 Bc1 Rf5 Qb6+ Kf7 Bb2 Rf3+ Kg4 Rf1 Qxb5 Rg1+ Kf5 Re1 Qd5+ Ke7 Bf6+ Kf8
 12/30-	00:00	     464'434	2'884'000	-10.50	Kg6 Rg3+
 12/32-	00:00	     513'295	2'804'000	-11.33	Kg6 Rg3+
 12/32	00:00	     557'003	2'785'000	-11.15	Kg8 Rg3+ Rg6 Qb8+ Kf7 Qc7+ Kg8 Rh3 Rf6 Qb8+ Kf7 Qa7+ Kg8 Qa2+ Kg7 Qg2+ Kf7 Bg3 b4 Qb7+ Kg8 Qa8+ Rf8 Qg2 Qg6 Rh4 Rf5 Qa8+ Kf7 Qb7+ Kf6 Qb6+ Kf7 Qc7+ Kg8 Qc4+ Kg7 Rg4 Rh5+ Kg1 Rg5 Qd4+ Kf7 Qf4+ Qf5 Rxg5 Qxf4 Bxf4 Ke6 Rb5 Kd7 Rxb4 Kc6 Kf2 Kc5 Bd2 Kc6 Kf3 Kd5 Kf4 Kd6 Ke4 Kc7 Rb3 Kd7 Rb6 Kc7 Be3 Kd7 Bf4 Ke7 Rc6 Ke8 Kf5 Ke7 Rc7+ Ke8
 13/78	00:00	     557'021	2'771'000	-11.15	Kg8 Rg3+ Rg6 Qb8+ Kf7 Qc7+ Kg8 Rh3 Rf6 Qb8+ Kf7 Qa7+ Kg8 Qa2+ Kg7 Qg2+ Kf7 Bg3 b4 Qb7+ Kg8 Qa8+ Rf8 Qg2 Qg6 Rh4 Rf5 Qa8+ Kf7 Qb7+ Kf6 Qb6+ Kf7 Qc7+ Kg8 Qc4+ Kg7 Rg4 Rh5+ Kg1 Rg5 Qd4+ Kf7 Qf4+ Qf5 Rxg5 Qxf4 Bxf4 Ke6 Rb5 Kd7 Rxb4 Kc6 Kf2 Kc5 Bd2 Kc6 Kf3 Kd5 Kf4 Kd6 Ke4 Kc7 Rb3 Kd7 Rb6 Kc7 Be3 Kd7 Bf4 Ke7 Rc6 Ke8 Kf5 Ke7 Rc7+ Ke8
 14/78	00:00	     557'484	2'654'000	-11.15	Kg8 Rg3+ Rg6 Qb8+ Kf7 Qc7+ Kg8 Rh3 Rf6 Qb8+ Kf7 Qa7+ Kg8 Qa2+ Kg7 Qg2+ Kf7 Bg3 b4 Qb7+ Kg8 Qa8+ Rf8 Qg2 Qg6 Rh4 Rf5 Qa8+ Kf7 Qb7+ Kf6 Qb6+ Kf7 Qc7+ Kg8 Qc4+ Kg7 Rg4 Rh5+ Kg1 Rg5 Qd4+ Kf7 Qf4+ Qf5 Rxg5 Qxf4 Bxf4 Ke6 Rb5 Kd7 Rxb4 Kc6 Kf2 Kc5 Bd2 Kc6 Kf3 Kd5 Kf4 Kd6 Ke4 Kc7 Rb3 Kd7 Rb6 Kc7 Be3 Kd7 Bf4 Ke7 Rc6 Ke8 Kf5 Ke7 Rc7+ Ke8
 15/78	00:00	     562'266	2'392'000	-11.15	Kg8 Rg3+ Rg6 Qb8+ Kf7 Qc7+ Kg8 Rh3 Rf6 Qb8+ Kf7 Qa7+ Kg8 Qa2+ Kg7 Qg2+ Kf7 Bg3 b4 Qb7+ Kg8 Qa8+ Rf8 Qg2 Qg6 Rh4 Rf5 Qa8+ Kf7 Qb7+ Kf6 Qb6+ Kf7 Qc7+ Kg8 Qc4+ Kg7 Rg4 Rh5+ Kg1 Rg5 Qd4+ Kf7 Qf4+ Qf5 Rxg5 Qxf4 Bxf4 Ke6 Rb5 Kd7 Rxb4 Kc6 Kf2 Kc5 Bd2 Kc6 Kf3 Kd5 Kf4 Kd6 Ke4 Kc7 Rb3 Kd7 Rb6 Kc7 Be3 Kd7 Bf4 Ke7 Rc6 Ke8 Kf5 Ke7 Rc7+ Ke8
 16/78	00:00	     573'821	2'332'000	-11.15	Kg8 Rg3+ Rg6 Qb8+ Kf7 Qc7+ Kg8 Rh3 Rf6 Qb8+ Kf7 Qa7+ Kg8 Qa2+ Kg7 Qg2+ Kf7 Bg3 b4 Qb7+ Kg8 Qa8+ Rf8 Qg2 Qg6 Rh4 Rf5 Qa8+ Kf7 Qb7+ Kf6 Qb6+ Kf7 Qc7+ Kg8 Qc4+ Kg7 Rg4 Rh5+ Kg1 Rg5 Qd4+ Kf7 Qf4+ Qf5 Rxg5 Qxf4 Bxf4 Ke6 Rb5 Kd7 Rxb4 Kc6 Kf2 Kc5 Bd2 Kc6 Kf3 Kd5 Kf4 Kd6 Ke4 Kc7 Rb3 Kd7 Rb6 Kc7 Be3 Kd7 Bf4 Ke7 Rc6 Ke8 Kf5 Ke7 Rc7+ Ke8
 17/78	00:00	     615'170	2'375'000	-11.15	Kg8 Rg3+ Rg6 Qb8+ Kf7 Qc7+ Kg8 Rh3 Rf6 Qb8+ Kf7 Qa7+ Kg8 Qa2+ Kg7 Qg2+ Kf7 Bg3 b4 Qb7+ Kg8 Qa8+ Rf8 Qg2 Qg6 Rh4 Rf5 Qa8+ Kf7 Qb7+ Kf6 Qb6+ Kf7 Qc7+ Kg8 Qc4+ Kg7 Rg4 Rh5+ Kg1 Rg5 Qd4+ Kf7 Qf4+ Qf5 Rxg5 Qxf4 Bxf4 Ke6 Rb5 Kd7 Rxb4 Kc6 Kf2 Kc5 Bd2 Kc6 Kf3 Kd5 Kf4 Kd6 Ke4 Kc7 Rb3 Kd7 Rb6 Kc7 Be3 Kd7 Bf4 Ke7 Rc6 Ke8 Kf5 Ke7 Rc7+ Ke8
 18/78	00:00	     617'146	2'219'000	-11.15	Kg8 Rg3+ Rg6 Qb8+ Kf7 Qc7+ Kg8 Rh3 Rf6 Qb8+ Kf7 Qa7+ Kg8 Qa2+ Kg7 Qg2+ Kf7 Bg3 b4 Qb7+ Kg8 Qa8+ Rf8 Qg2 Qg6 Rh4 Rf5 Qa8+ Kf7 Qb7+ Kf6 Qb6+ Kf7 Qc7+ Kg8 Qc4+ Kg7 Rg4 Rh5+ Kg1 Rg5 Qd4+ Kf7 Qf4+ Qf5 Rxg5 Qxf4 Bxf4 Ke6 Rb5 Kd7 Rxb4 Kc6 Kf2 Kc5 Bd2 Kc6 Kf3 Kd5 Kf4 Kd6 Ke4 Kc7 Rb3 Kd7 Rb6 Kc7 Be3 Kd7 Bf4 Ke7 Rc6 Ke8 Kf5 Ke7 Rc7+ Ke8
 19/78	00:00	     619'572	2'151'000	-11.15	Kg8 Rg3+ Rg6 Qb8+ Kf7 Qc7+ Kg8 Rh3 Rf6 Qb8+ Kf7 Qa7+ Kg8 Qa2+ Kg7 Qg2+ Kf7 Bg3 b4 Qb7+ Kg8 Qa8+ Rf8 Qg2 Qg6 Rh4 Rf5 Qa8+ Kf7 Qb7+ Kf6 Qb6+ Kf7 Qc7+ Kg8 Qc4+ Kg7 Rg4 Rh5+ Kg1 Rg5 Qd4+ Kf7 Qf4+ Qf5 Rxg5 Qxf4 Bxf4 Ke6 Rb5 Kd7 Rxb4 Kc6 Kf2 Kc5 Bd2 Kc6 Kf3 Kd5 Kf4 Kd6 Ke4 Kc7 Rb3 Kd7 Rb6 Kc7 Be3 Kd7 Bf4 Ke7 Rc6 Ke8 Kf5 Ke7 Rc7+ Ke8
 20/78	00:00	     623'111	2'090'000	-11.15	Kg8 Rg3+ Rg6 Qb8+ Kf7 Qc7+ Kg8 Rh3 Rf6 Qb8+ Kf7 Qa7+ Kg8 Qa2+ Kg7 Qg2+ Kf7 Bg3 b4 Qb7+ Kg8 Qa8+ Rf8 Qg2 Qg6 Rh4 Rf5 Qa8+ Kf7 Qb7+ Kf6 Qb6+ Kf7 Qc7+ Kg8 Qc4+ Kg7 Rg4 Rh5+ Kg1 Rg5 Qd4+ Kf7 Qf4+ Qf5 Rxg5 Qxf4 Bxf4 Ke6 Rb5 Kd7 Rxb4 Kc6 Kf2 Kc5 Bd2 Kc6 Kf3 Kd5 Kf4 Kd6 Ke4 Kc7 Rb3 Kd7 Rb6 Kc7 Be3 Kd7 Bf4 Ke7 Rc6 Ke8 Kf5 Ke7 Rc7+ Ke8
 21/78	00:00	     626'873	2'035'000	-11.15	Kg8 Rg3+ Rg6 Qb8+ Kf7 Qc7+ Kg8 Rh3 Rf6 Qb8+ Kf7 Qa7+ Kg8 Qa2+ Kg7 Qg2+ Kf7 Bg3 b4 Qb7+ Kg8 Qa8+ Rf8 Qg2 Qg6 Rh4 Rf5 Qa8+ Kf7 Qb7+ Kf6 Qb6+ Kf7 Qc7+ Kg8 Qc4+ Kg7 Rg4 Rh5+ Kg1 Rg5 Qd4+ Kf7 Qf4+ Qf5 Rxg5 Qxf4 Bxf4 Ke6 Rb5 Kd7 Rxb4 Kc6 Kf2 Kc5 Bd2 Kc6 Kf3 Kd5 Kf4 Kd6 Ke4 Kc7 Rb3 Kd7 Rb6 Kc7 Be3 Kd7 Bf4 Ke7 Rc6 Ke8 Kf5 Ke7 Rc7+ Ke8
 22/78	00:01	  21'131'850	11'092'000	-11.24	Kg8 Rg3+ Rg6 Qb8+ Kf7 Qc7+ Kg8 Rh3 Rf6 Qb8+ Kf7 Qa7+ Kg8 Qa2+ Kg7 Qg2+ Kf7 Bg3 b4 Qb7+ Kg8 Qa8+ Rf8 Qg2 Qg6 Rh4 Rf5 Qa8+ Kf7 Qb7+ Kf6 Qb6+ Kf7 Qc7+ Kg8 Qc4+ Kg7 Rg4 Rh5+ Kg1 Rg5 Qd4+ Kf7 Qf4+ Qf5 Rxg5 Qxf4 Bxf4 Ke6 Rb5 Kd7 Rxb4 Kc6 Kf2 Kc5 Bd2 Kc6 Kf3 Kd5 Be3 Kd6 Ke4 Kc7 Rb6 Kd7 Bf4 Ke7 Rc6 Ke8 Kf5 Ke7 Rc7+ Ke8
 23/79-	00:02	  29'139'389	11'012'000	-11.70	Kg8 Rg3+
 23/86-	00:03	  44'892'818	11'798'000	-12.63	Kg8 Rg3+
 23/103-	00:28	 436'188'532	15'467'000	-23.15	Kg8 Rg3+
 23/103	00:37	 574'807'229	15'340'000	-13.35	Kg8 Rg3+ Rg6 Qb8+ Kf7 Qc7+ Kg8 Rh3 Rf6 Qb8+ Kf7 Qa7+ Kg8 Qa2+ Kg7 Qg2+ Kf7 Bg3 b4 Qb7+ Kg8 Qa8+ Rf8 Qg2 Kf7 Rh4 Ke6 Qc6+ Kf7 Rf4 Rh8+ Kg2 Rh5 Rxf5+ Rxf5 Qc4+ Kf6 Qxb4 Kf7 Qc4+ Kf6 Bh4+ Ke5 Qc3+ Kd5 Bg3 Ke6 Qc4+ Kf6 Bh4+
 24/103-	00:37	 578'339'319	15'306'000	-13.91	Kg8 Rg3+
 24/103-	00:38	 580'789'715	15'275'000	-15.02	Kg8 Rg3+
 24/103-	00:44	 674'210'197	15'291'000	-27.69	Kg8 Rg3+
 24/103	00:49	 757'422'262	15'228'000	-16.53	Kg8 Rg3+ Rg6 Qb8+ Kf7 Qc7+ Kg8 Rh3 Rf6 Qb8+ Kf7 Qa7+ Kg8 Qa2+ Kg7 Qg2+ Kf7 Bg3 b4 Qb7+ Kg8 Qa8+ Rf8 Qg2 Kf7 Rh4 Kg6 Be5+ Kf7 Bb2 Ke6 Rh6+ Kf7 Qb7+ Ke8 Qc6+ Kf7 Rf6+ Qxf6 Qxf6+ Ke8 Qe6+ Kd8 Bd4 Kc7 Qe7+ Kc6 Qc5+ Kb7 Qxb4+ Kc6 Qc5+ Kd7 Qxf8 Ke6 Kg3 Kd5 Qc5+ Ke4 Qe5+ Kd3 Qe3+ Kc4
 25/103-	00:50	 769'423'991	15'123'000	-17.22	Kg8 Rg3+
 25/103-	00:53	 799'721'957	15'049'000	-18.59	Kg8 Rg3+
 25/103-	00:53	 803'112'161	15'034'000	-22.56	Kg8 Rg3+
 25/103+	01:46	1'645'920'427	15'397'000	-15.85	Kg8
 25/103+	02:22	2'189'464'774	15'373'000	-14.48	Kg8
 25/103	02:57	2'654'937'516	14'971'000	-13.53	Kg8 Rg3+ Rg6 Qb8+ Kf7 Qc7+ Kg8 Rh3 Rf6 Qb8+ Kf7 Qa7+ Kg8 Qa2+ Kg7 Qg2+ Kf7 Bg3 b4 Qb7+ Kg8 Qa8+ Rf8 Qg2 Qg5 Qa2+ b3 Qxb3+ Kg7 Qb7+ Rf7 Qb2+ Kg6 Be5 Qg4 Qc2+ Kg5 Qc1+ Rf4 Rg3 Kf5 Qc8+ Kxe5
 26/103-	02:58	2'667'806'417	14'951'000	-14.09	Kg8 Rg3+
 26/103-	02:58	2'670'031'900	14'939'000	-15.22	Kg8 Rg3+
 26/103-	03:01	2'717'522'952	14'933'000	-28.02	Kg8 Rg3+
 26/103	03:30	3'149'789'880	14'978'000	-16.58	Kg8 Rg3+ Rg6 Qb8+ Kf7 Qc7+ Kg8 Rh3 Rf6 Qb8+ Kf7 Qb7+ Kg8 Qg2+ Kf7 Bg3 b4 Qb7+ Kg8 Qa8+ Rf8 Qg2 Qg5 Qa2+ b3 Qxb3+ Rf7 Qa2 Qf6 Rh4 Qg6 Qc4 Qg5 Rg4 Qxg4
 27/103-	03:32	3'173'932'683	14'959'000	-17.27	Kg8 Rg3+
 27/103-	03:32	3'183'644'191	14'950'000	-18.65	Kg8 Rg3+
 27/103-	03:33	3'192'014'831	14'942'000	-22.66	Kg8 Rg3+
 27/103	06:39	6'053'374'180	15'144'000	-16.43	Kg8 Rg3+ Rg6 Qb8+ Kf7 Qc7+ Kg8 Rh3 Rf6 Qb8+ Kf7 Qb7+ Kg8 Qg2+ Kf7 Bg3 Qg6 Qa2+ Re6 Rh4 Kg7 Qb2+ Qf6 Qxb5 Qh6
 28/103-	07:16	6'639'777'306	15'222'000	-17.10	Kg8 Rg3+
 28/103-	07:17	6'657'142'788	15'215'000	-18.46	Kg8 Rg3+
 28/103-	07:18	6'671'271'321	15'209'000	-22.41	Kg8 Rg3+
 28/103	10:36	9'748'161'347	15'315'000	-16.67	Kg8 Rg3+ Rg6 Qb8+ Kf7 Qc7+ Kg8 Rh3 Rf6 Qb8+ Kf7 Qb7+ Kg8 Qg2+ Kf7 Bg3 b4 Qb7+ Kg8 Qa8+ Rf8 Qg2 Qg6 Qd5+ Rf7 Be1 Kg7 Qe5+ Rf6 Rg3 Kh7 Rxg6 Kxg6 Bxb4 Rf2+ Kg3 Rf1 Qe6+ Kg7 Qg4+ Kf6 Bc3+ Ke7 Qe2+ Kd6 Qxf1 Kc5 Kg4 Kd5 Qd3+ Kc6 Qc4+ Kb6
 29/103-	10:41	9'808'243'574	15'301'000	-17.36	Kg8 Rg3+
 29/103-	10:58	10'014'220'736	15'211'000	-18.74	Kg8 Rg3+
 29/103-	11:01	10'052'754'271	15'207'000	-22.75	Kg8 Rg3+
 29/103	27:19	26'036'608'142	15'883'000	-318.00	Kg8 Rg3+ Rg6 Qb8+ Kf7 Qc7+ Kg8 Rh3 Rf6 Qb8+ Kf7 Qb7+ Kg8 Qg2+ Kf7 Bg3 b4 Qb7+ Kg8 Qa8+ Rf8 Qg2 Qg6 Qd5+ Rf7 Be1 Kg7 Qe5+ Rf6 Rg3 Kh7 Rxg6 Kxg6
 30/103	1:47:23	104'732'525'413	16'254'000	-318.00	Kg8 Rg3+ Rg6 Qb8+ Kf7 Qc7+ Kg8 Rh3 Rf6 Qb8+ Kf7 Qb7+ Kg8 Qg2+ Kf7 Bg3 b4 Qb7+ Kg8 Qa8+ Rf8 Qg2 Qg6 Qd5+ Rf7 Be1 Kg7 Qe5+ Rf6 Rg3 Kh7 Rxg6 Kxg6
 31/103+	2:13:13	130'954'577'895	16'382'000	-168.44	Kg8
 31/103+	2:16:14	133'844'945'759	16'373'000	-154.40	Kg8
 31/103+	2:20:28	137'851'184'263	16'355'000	-112.42	Kg8
 31/112	2:44:53	161'103'567'505	16'283'000	-16.28	Kg8 Rg3+ Rg6 Qb8+ Kf7 Qc7+ Kg8 Rh3 Rf6 Qb8+ Kf7 Qb7+ Kg8 Qg2+ Kf7 Bg3 Re6 Bd6 Qe4 Qf2+ Rf6 Qa7+ Kg8 Qb8+ Kf7 Qf8+ Ke6 Qe7+ Kd5 Qb7+ Kd4 Qb6+ Kd5 Rh5+ Rf5 Qc5+ Ke6 Rh6+ Rf6 Qc8+ Kd5 Rh5+ Kd4 Qc5+ Kd3 Rd5+ Qxd5 Qxd5+ Kc2 Qe4+ Kc3 Qe5+ Kc4 Qxf6 Kb3 Qf4 Kc2 Qf5+ Kc3 Qxb5 Kc2 Kg3
 32/112-	2:51:55	167'507'140'767	16'238'000	-16.95	Kg8 Rg3+
 32/112-	2:53:39	169'021'960'831	16'221'000	-18.30	Kg8 Rg3+
 32/112-	2:53:52	169'219'895'430	16'221'000	-22.21	Kg8 Rg3+
H4 is with 6-men syzygy. I played 2 more moves as they are kind of forced. As you can see, eval goes to +300 and back to 20. After that fail-high, it has now searched more than 700 billion nodes (almost 1 billion TB hits) and it still doesn't have output. And every PV line it showed is just shuffling.
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Milos
Posts: 4190
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:47 am

Re: Is it actually a draw?

Post by Milos »

kranium wrote: Hi Milos,

I sent Martin version 3.2 (with tablebase support) last month, but decided not to use it because I hadn't had enough time to test it as much as I wanted...
well, turns out it does a much better job with this difficult position than 3.1 (which is without TBs), see depths 25 and 26 below

Fire 3.2 x64 Release:

Code: Select all

   1	00:00	         436	0	-0.59	Kf7-f8
   1	00:00	         970	0	-0.46	Rf6-e6
   2	00:00	       1,161	0	-0.46	Rf6-e6 Kh2-g3
   3	00:00	       3,318	0	-0.50	Rf6-e6 Kh2-g3 Kf7-g6 Qa2-b2
   4	00:00	       3,760	0	-0.50	Rf6-e6 Kh2-g3 Kf7-g6 Qa2-b2
   5	00:00	       6,242	0	-0.56	Rf6-e6 Kh2-g3 Kf7-g6 Qa2-b2 Re6-e4
   5	00:00	       9,753	0	-0.49	Qf5-e6 Qa2-a7+ Kf7-g6 Rf3-e3 Qe6-g4 Re3-g3
   6	00:00	      17,075	0	-0.38	Rf6-e6 Kh2-g3 Kf7-g6 Qa2-a3 Re6-e4 Qa3-d6+ Qf5-e6
   7	00:00	      52,641	3,290,000	-0.43	Kf7-g7 Qa2-a7+ Kg7-g8 Qa7-b8+ Kg8-f7 Qb8-c7+ Kf7-g8 Qc7-d8+ Kg8-f7 Qd8-d4 Rf6-g6
   8	00:00	      75,533	2,436,000	-0.44	Kf7-g7 Qa2-a7+ Kg7-g8 Qa7-b8+ Kg8-f7 Qb8-c7+ Kf7-g8 Kh2-g2 Rf6-g6+ Kg2-f1 b5-b4 Qc7-c4+ Qf5-e6 Qc4xb4
   9	00:00	     111,531	3,597,000	-0.44	Kf7-g7 Qa2-a7+ Kg7-g8 Qa7-b8+ Kg8-f7 Qb8-b7+ Kf7-g8 Qb7-a8+ Kg8-f7 Qa8-a2+
  10	00:00	     295,460	6,286,000	-0.50	Kf7-g7 Kh2-g3 Qf5-e6 Qa2-a1 Kg7-f7 Qa1-d4 Qe6-c4 Qd4-d7+ Kf7-g8 Qd7-e8+ Kg8-h7 Qe8-e7+ Kh7-g6
  11	00:00	     701,308	7,460,000	-0.50	Kf7-g7 Qa2-g2+ Kg7-f7 Qg2-a2+
  12	00:00	   1,353,578	9,599,000	-0.53	Kf7-g7 Qa2-b2 Kg7-g8 Qb2-b3+ Kg8-g7 Kh2-g2 Qf5-e4 Qb3xb5 Rf6-g6+ Bf4-g5 Rg6-c6 Bg5-e3 Rc6-c2+ Be3-f2 Qe4-g4+ Rf3-g3
  13	00:00	   2,110,002	9,634,000	-0.53	Kf7-g7 Qa2-g2+ Kg7-f7 Qg2-a2+
  14	00:00	   5,200,565	11,900,000	-0.55	Kf7-g7 Qa2-b2 Kg7-g8 Qb2-b3+ Rf6-e6 Kh2-g1 Kg8-h7 Qb3-c3 Re6-f6 Qc3-d4 Qf5-b1+ Kg1-h2 Qb1-c2+ Rf3-f2 Qc2-f5 Kh2-g1 Qf5-g4+ Kg1-f1 Qg4-h3+ Kf1-e1
  15	00:00	   6,769,908	12,046,000	-0.56	Kf7-g7 Qa2-a7+ Kg7-g8 Qa7-b8+ Kg8-f7 Qb8-c7+ Kf7-g8 Rf3-g3+ Rf6-g6 Rg3-h3 Rg6-f6 Qc7-b8+ Kg8-f7 Qb8-c7+ Kf7-g8
  16	00:00	   7,787,100	12,167,000	-0.56	Kf7-g7 Qa2-a7+ Kg7-g8 Qa7-b8+ Kg8-f7 Qb8-c7+ Kf7-g8 Rf3-g3+ Rf6-g6 Rg3-h3 Rg6-f6 Qc7-b8+ Kg8-f7 Qb8-c7+ Kf7-g8
  17	00:01	   9,857,300	12,154,000	-0.64	Kf7-g7 Qa2-a7+ Kg7-g8 Qa7-b8+ Kg8-f7 Qb8-c7+ Kf7-g8 Rf3-g3+ Rf6-g6 Rg3-h3 Rg6-g4 Qc7-b8+ Kg8-f7 Qb8-a7+ Kf7-g8 Qa7-a8+ Kg8-f7 Qa8-a2+ Kf7-g7 Qa2-b2+ Kg7-f7 Qb2-b3+ Kf7-f6 Rh3-h6+ Rg4-g6 Qb3-c3+ Kf6-e6 Qc3-c8+ Ke6-f6 Qc8-c3+
  18	00:01	  12,557,433	12,384,000	-0.64	Kf7-g7 Qa2-a7+ Kg7-g8 Qa7-b8+ Kg8-f7 Qb8-c7+ Kf7-g8 Rf3-g3+ Rf6-g6 Rg3-h3 Rg6-g4 Qc7-b8+ Kg8-f7 Qb8-a7+ Kf7-g8 Qa7-a8+ Kg8-f7 Qa8-a2+ Kf7-g7 Qa2-b2+ Kg7-f7 Qb2-b3+ Kf7-f6 Rh3-h6+ Rg4-g6 Qb3-c3+ Kf6-e6 Qc3-c6+ Ke6-f7 Qc6-c7+ Kf7-e6 Qc7-c8+ Ke6-f6 Qc8-c3+
  19	00:01	  18,280,439	12,873,000	-0.64	Kf7-g7 Qa2-a7+ Kg7-g8 Qa7-b8+ Kg8-f7 Qb8-c7+ Kf7-g8 Rf3-g3+ Rf6-g6 Rg3-h3 Rg6-g4 Qc7-b8+ Kg8-f7 Qb8-a7+ Kf7-g8 Qa7-a8+ Kg8-f7 Qa8-a2+ Kf7-g7 Qa2-b2+ Kg7-f7 Qb2-b3+ Kf7-f6 Rh3-h6+ Rg4-g6 Qb3-c3+ Kf6-e6 Qc3-c6+ Ke6-f7 Qc6-c7+ Kf7-e6 Qc7-c8+ Ke6-f6 Qc8-c3+
  20	00:02	  26,606,775	13,119,000	-0.64	Kf7-g7 Qa2-a7+ Kg7-g8 Qa7-b8+ Kg8-f7 Qb8-c7+ Kf7-g8 Rf3-g3+ Rf6-g6 Rg3-h3 Rg6-g4 Qc7-b8+ Kg8-f7 Qb8-a7+ Kf7-g8 Qa7-a8+ Kg8-f7 Qa8-a2+ Kf7-g7 Qa2-b2+ Kg7-f7 Qb2-b3+ Kf7-f6 Rh3-h6+ Rg4-g6 Qb3-c3+ Kf6-e6 Qc3-c6+ Ke6-f7 Qc6-c7+ Kf7-e6 Qc7-b6+ Ke6-f7 Qb6-b7+ Kf7-f6 Qb7-c6+ Kf6-f7
  21	00:07	 104,625,288	15,242,000	-0.64	Kf7-g7 Qa2-a7+ Kg7-g8 Qa7-a8+ Kg8-f7 Qa8-a2+
  22	00:09	 132,048,549	14,929,000	-0.64	Kf7-g7 Qa2-a7+ Kg7-g8 Qa7-a8+ Kg8-f7 Qa8-a2+
  23	00:12	 182,659,207	14,802,000	-0.64	Kf7-g7 Qa2-a7+ Kg7-g8 Qa7-a8+ Kg8-f7 Qa8-a2+
  24	00:26	 340,184,014	12,872,000	-1.19	Kf7-g7 Qa2-a7+ Kg7-g8 Rf3-g3+ Rf6-g6 Qa7-b8+ Kg8-f7 Qb8-c7+ Kf7-g8 Rg3-h3 Rg6-f6 Qc7-b8+ Kg8-f7 Qb8-b7+ Kf7-g8 Qb7-g2+ Kg8-f7 Rh3-h4 b5-b4 Bf4-g3 b4-b3 Qg2-b7+ Kf7-g8 Qb7xb3+ Qf5-e6 Rh4-g4+ Kg8-h7 Qb3-b7+ Rf6-f7 Rg4-h4+ Kh7-g8 Qb7-a8+ Rf7-f8 Qa8-g2 Qe6-g6 Qg2-d5+ Rf8-f7 Bg3-e5 Qg6-c2+ Kh2-h3 Qc2-f5+ Rh4-g4+ Kg8-h7 Kh3-h4 Qf5-f2+ Rg4-g3 Qf2-h2+ Rg3-h3
  25	01:55	1,575,527,428	13,625,000	-5.53	Kf7-g7 Qa2-a7+ Kg7-g8 Rf3-g3+ Rf6-g6 Qa7-b8+ Kg8-f7 Qb8-c7+ Kf7-g8 Rg3-h3 Rg6-f6 Qc7-b8+ Kg8-f7 Qb8-b7+ Kf7-g8 Qb7-g2+ Kg8-f7 Rh3-h4 b5-b4 Bf4-g3 b4-b3 Qg2-b7+ Kf7-g8 Qb7xb3+ Qf5-e6 Rh4-g4+ Kg8-h7 Qb3-b7+ Rf6-f7 Rg4-h4+ Kh7-g8 Qb7-a8+ Rf7-f8 Qa8-g2 Qe6-g6 Qg2-a2+ Rf8-f7 Qa2-c4 Qg6-f5 Rh4-g4+ Kg8-h8 Qc4-d4+ Kh8-h7 Rg4-h4+ Kh7-g6 Qd4-h8 Rf7-e7 Qh8-h6+ Kg6-f7 Rh4-f4 Re7-e2+ Kh2-g1 Re2-g2+ Kg1xg2
  26	19:30	20,493,795,721	17,516,000	-13.34	Kf7-g7 Qa2-a7+ Kg7-g8 Rf3-g3+ Rf6-g6 Qa7-b8+ Kg8-f7 Qb8-c7+ Kf7-g8 Rg3-h3 Rg6-f6 Qc7-b8+ Kg8-f7 Qb8-b7+ Kf7-g8 Qb7-g2+ Kg8-f7 Rh3-h4 b5-b4 Bf4-g3 b4-b3 Qg2-b7+ Kf7-g8 Qb7xb3+ Qf5-e6 Rh4-g4+ Kg8-h7 Qb3-b7+ Rf6-f7 Rg4-h4+ Kh7-g8 Qb7-a8+ Rf7-f8 Qa8-g2 Qe6-g6 Qg2-a2+ Rf8-f7 Qa2-c4 Qg6-f5 Rh4-g4+ Kg8-h8 Qc4-d4+ Kh8-h7 Rg4-h4+ Kh7-g6 Qd4-h8 Rf7-e7 Qh8-h6+ Kg6-f7 Rh4-f4 Re7-e2+ Kh2-g1 Kf7-g8 Rf4xf5 Re2-g2+ Kg1-f1 Rg2-g1+ Kf1-e2 Rg1-e1+
I don't know however if it would have changed the result of this game however, as Stockfish plays extremely strong endgames even without TBs, and searches much deeper than any other engine at present...

Anyway, if Fire goes through, I'll probably let 3.2 finish the tournament...

Best regards,
Norm

PS- It's been a long time, hope all is well, would love to have you back on the team!
Hi Norm,
I'm really glad Fire is doing well despite this loss (which I'm not really convinced is forced). Version 3.1 seams to be already stronger than 3.0 (which was big, big improvement).
Having TBs is always good idea, and since TCEC allows only 5-men (if I'm not mistaken) than DTM is probably a better idea then syzygy or some other WDL type of bases.
Testing is ofc required but after this round I wouldn't hesitate much in putting them.
I'd love if I had a bit more time (due to day job) to do some development, but for the moment I have to limit myself to following couple of interesting games on TCEC here and there and that's it. Maybe for the next season...

Best regards,
Milos
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User avatar
Houdini
Posts: 1471
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:00 am

Re: Is it actually a draw?

Post by Houdini »

Milos wrote:H4 is with 6-men syzygy. I played 2 more moves as they are kind of forced. As you can see, eval goes to +300 and back to 20. After that fail-high, it has now searched more than 700 billion nodes (almost 1 billion TB hits) and it still doesn't have output. And every PV line it showed is just shuffling.
It is a big jump from "Houdini cannot produce a stable PV" to your claim that "the position was actually draw despite extremely high evaluation score by SF and H4".
As Houdini and SF are telling you, the position most definitely is a win.

The instability of the PV and score is probably due to insufficient hash memory with respect to the search depth. Feel free to add hash memory, Houdini 4 can use up to 256 GB.
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Milos
Posts: 4190
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:47 am

Re: Is it actually a draw?

Post by Milos »

Houdini wrote:It is a big jump from "Houdini cannot produce a stable PV" to your claim that "the position was actually draw despite extremely high evaluation score by SF and H4".
As Houdini and SF are telling you, the position most definitely is a win.

The instability of the PV and score is probably due to insufficient hash memory with respect to the search depth. Feel free to add hash memory, Houdini 4 can use up to 256 GB.
The position is a win but the question is if it is reachable withing 50 moves in realistic conditions. And this question cannot be answered by any engine since it would require at least 7-men TBs. Even 256GB of hash is far from sufficient and I seriously doubt there is anyone here who could afford it. I'm already analyzing with 8GB hash (I could maybe go to 16GB but I don't think there is point).
The only resolution is to actually play at LTC H4 with 6-men vs. SF without TBs and see how it develops.
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