Note that so far approx. 2700 games are already played
And the scratch engine database includes 113 games lost on time
That means in every 100 games, there is possibility to see 3-4 games forfeits on time (the number is not too big, honestly I expected much more...)
Those games which are lost on time are mainly belong to Djinn v1.008 (39 games), without those lost games on time, probably Djinn would be in Top 20
Since today, I started testing only the Top 20 scratch engines
Soon I will test a few scratch engines more (Jazz,Milady,Neurone...)
Games and more info coming soon!
Have fun,
Sedat
I see that the baron is included in the scratch engines.
Note that I read that the baron started from tscp.
Note that I started from some code from tscp but not from some working code(For example the code that I started did not include something of the evaluation function of tscp) so it is not the same for movei.
I do not claim that the version of baron that you test is similiar to tscp
but it may be interesting to know results by the similiarity tool.
Baron is completely original. I suppose this kind of affirmation remembers me about your fantastic move 1. h3!!.
Any real chess programmer, who knows Richard Pijl, not you of course, can affirm without any doubt that new Baron was created from scratch. Your Movei is derived from TSCP because you said it openly here.
I find it so silly, that I suppose Richard will pass this. My goodness, the things that I have to read here!
Note that
I did not say that the new baron include something from tscp but only that baron started from tscp.
From the page that miguel gave:
"Although all of Tom's original code has gone now, it gave me the opportunity to quickly build a working program."
I admit openly that I started from some code of tscp that did not include evaluation function or move generator that it is clearly less than what Richard admitted.
You distort my words when you say that I admit openly that movei is a tscp derivative.
If we define chess code as code that is relevant only for chess and not for other games then
I think that there was never chess code that is common for movei and tscp(unless you consider some names of variables to be chess code).
The common pv array that movei use and also tscp use is not a chess code because it can be used also for other games and I do not consider the way that I store moves to be chess code(originally by struct like tscp and later I replaced it by integer)
I guess that when richard said that all of Tom's original code has gone now he meant only to chess code and I doubt that he replaced every line to see that there is no common lines between the baron and tscp.
No, I don't distort anything. It is you that affirms things without having any base. You said it here that Movei derived from TSCP. There is no distortion. Simple.
As always, you guess wrongly. Richard is an original chess programmer and his code is completely created from scratch, programe that you won't have.
End of story.
Richard doesn't post because he doesn't have time to read the silliness of post like this.... Blah... Blah... etc. Movei is derived engine too from TSCP. Using your words: I _guess_ you attack what you did not reach in years...
New Baron is an original engine but I _guess_ that you don't understand that. I _do not claim_ that Richard will read this. _My point_ was to show that you are always posting baseless statements.
I won't answer to Miguel since it doesn't make sense to explain 1000 times what is already known.
Note that so far approx. 2700 games are already played
And the scratch engine database includes 113 games lost on time
That means in every 100 games, there is possibility to see 3-4 games forfeits on time (the number is not too big, honestly I expected much more...)
Those games which are lost on time are mainly belong to Djinn v1.008 (39 games), without those lost games on time, probably Djinn would be in Top 20
Since today, I started testing only the Top 20 scratch engines
Soon I will test a few scratch engines more (Jazz,Milady,Neurone...)
Games and more info coming soon!
Have fun,
Sedat
I see that the baron is included in the scratch engines.
Note that I read that the baron started from tscp.
Note that I started from some code from tscp but not from some working code(For example the code that I started did not include something of the evaluation function of tscp) so it is not the same for movei.
I do not claim that the version of baron that you test is similiar to tscp
but it may be interesting to know results by the similiarity tool.
Baron is completely original. I suppose this kind of affirmation remembers me about your fantastic move 1. h3!!.
Any real chess programmer, who knows Richard Pijl, not you of course, can affirm without any doubt that new Baron was created from scratch. Your Movei is derived from TSCP because you said it openly here.
I find it so silly, that I suppose Richard will pass this. My goodness, the things that I have to read here!
There is absolutely no reason to attack Uri. He is just providing a link to the chess programming wiki. In that page, it says nothing wrong about The Baron, in fact, it mentions it was a LEGAL derivative. In addition, it seems to be correct. It would be rare to see something crazy wrong there (Gerd seems to be quite thorough) so I googled.
Richard himself acknowledged TSCP for the initial old Baron (which was completely rewritten IIRC) http://docs3.chomikuj.pl/2278220280,PL,0,0,readme.txt
A C K N O W L E D G E M E N T S
-------------------------------
I used ideas already implemented in other chess programs when writing my own chess
engine. The starting point was one of the smallest chess programs around: Tom's Simple
Chess Program version 1.73.
I would like to thank Tom Kerrigan for making the source of the program available.
Although all of Tom's original code has gone now, it gave me the opportunity
to quickly build a working program.
Current Baron must have zero lines from TSCP and there nothing wrong with it. Quoting Anthony Cozzie (googled from the winboard forum)
" If someone wants to create an engine with Glaurung as a base, I don't see why that is a problem, as long as they specifically note this on its webpage/credits/whatever. I know The Baron originally started out as TSCP; no one thinks any less of Richard for doing this. " http://www.open-aurec.com/wbforum/viewt ... TSCP#p3535
Having said that, Sedat has a criteria for his own tournament. He is not placing guilt or an ethical concerns, if I understand well. If he were, it would be a complete different story. As an example, he may not include Crafty because it is a continuation of Cray Blitz. He is not saying Bob is cloning himself. Some people have tournaments based on the language spoken by the author, the country, or whatever. Sedat may not include some engine if at one point a template was used, regardless of legitimacy.
These are topics in which people get really touchy, I understand that and the reasons for it, but in this thread nobody accused anybody of anything. I hope this won't turn into anything that would start offending people.
Miguel
Did you notice from which year this information is? Did you notice that Baron is a complete new engine from scratch?
The topic is not touchy. It is in information that is reliable.
Why Sedat asks directly to the Author instead causing so noising thread?
Note that so far approx. 2700 games are already played
And the scratch engine database includes 113 games lost on time
That means in every 100 games, there is possibility to see 3-4 games forfeits on time (the number is not too big, honestly I expected much more...)
Those games which are lost on time are mainly belong to Djinn v1.008 (39 games), without those lost games on time, probably Djinn would be in Top 20
Since today, I started testing only the Top 20 scratch engines
Soon I will test a few scratch engines more (Jazz,Milady,Neurone...)
Games and more info coming soon!
Have fun,
Sedat
I see that the baron is included in the scratch engines.
Note that I read that the baron started from tscp.
Note that I started from some code from tscp but not from some working code(For example the code that I started did not include something of the evaluation function of tscp) so it is not the same for movei.
I do not claim that the version of baron that you test is similiar to tscp
but it may be interesting to know results by the similiarity tool.
Baron is completely original. I suppose this kind of affirmation remembers me about your fantastic move 1. h3!!.
Any real chess programmer, who knows Richard Pijl, not you of course, can affirm without any doubt that new Baron was created from scratch. Your Movei is derived from TSCP because you said it openly here.
I find it so silly, that I suppose Richard will pass this. My goodness, the things that I have to read here!
Note that
I did not say that the new baron include something from tscp but only that baron started from tscp.
From the page that miguel gave:
"Although all of Tom's original code has gone now, it gave me the opportunity to quickly build a working program."
I admit openly that I started from some code of tscp that did not include evaluation function or move generator that it is clearly less than what Richard admitted.
You distort my words when you say that I admit openly that movei is a tscp derivative.
If we define chess code as code that is relevant only for chess and not for other games then
I think that there was never chess code that is common for movei and tscp(unless you consider some names of variables to be chess code).
The common pv array that movei use and also tscp use is not a chess code because it can be used also for other games and I do not consider the way that I store moves to be chess code(originally by struct like tscp and later I replaced it by integer)
I guess that when richard said that all of Tom's original code has gone now he meant only to chess code and I doubt that he replaced every line to see that there is no common lines between the baron and tscp.
No, I don't distort anything. It is you that affirms things without having any base. You said it here that Movei derived from TSCP. There is no distortion. Simple.
As always, you guess wrongly. Richard is an original chess programmer and his code is completely created from scratch, programe that you won't have.
End of story.
Richard doesn't post because he doesn't have time to read the silliness of post like this.... Blah... Blah... etc. Movei is derived engine too from TSCP. Using your words: I _guess_ you attack what you did not reach in years...
New Baron is an original engine but I _guess_ that you don't understand that. I _do not claim_ that Richard will read this. _My point_ was to show that you are always posting baseless statements.
I won't answer to Miguel since it doesn't make sense to explain 1000 times what is already known.
Have a _guessing weekend_
Arturo Ochoa.
Here is a link for my post
I did not say that movei is derived from tscp.
I did not start with tscp and most of the code of tscp was never in movei
and I understand the claim that movei is derived from tscp to be that I started from the full tscp code and modified it.
Note that I believe richard and I consider the baron as original engine
but
1)In order to have an original engine you do not need to have nothing from another code.
Chess programs use the same code for tablebases and people still consider them as original engines.
2)It is not clear to me what richard meant when he said
""Although all of Tom's original code has gone now"
It is possible that he meant only to what I consider to be chess code.
It is also possible that after starting from tscp he started again from scratch.
I believe what he is going to say about it but I do not believe you about it
after you distort my words.
Note that so far approx. 2700 games are already played
And the scratch engine database includes 113 games lost on time
That means in every 100 games, there is possibility to see 3-4 games forfeits on time (the number is not too big, honestly I expected much more...)
Those games which are lost on time are mainly belong to Djinn v1.008 (39 games), without those lost games on time, probably Djinn would be in Top 20
Since today, I started testing only the Top 20 scratch engines
Soon I will test a few scratch engines more (Jazz,Milady,Neurone...)
Games and more info coming soon!
Have fun,
Sedat
I see that the baron is included in the scratch engines.
Note that I read that the baron started from tscp.
Note that I started from some code from tscp but not from some working code(For example the code that I started did not include something of the evaluation function of tscp) so it is not the same for movei.
I do not claim that the version of baron that you test is similiar to tscp
but it may be interesting to know results by the similiarity tool.
Baron is completely original. I suppose this kind of affirmation remembers me about your fantastic move 1. h3!!.
Any real chess programmer, who knows Richard Pijl, not you of course, can affirm without any doubt that new Baron was created from scratch. Your Movei is derived from TSCP because you said it openly here.
I find it so silly, that I suppose Richard will pass this. My goodness, the things that I have to read here!
There is absolutely no reason to attack Uri. He is just providing a link to the chess programming wiki. In that page, it says nothing wrong about The Baron, in fact, it mentions it was a LEGAL derivative. In addition, it seems to be correct. It would be rare to see something crazy wrong there (Gerd seems to be quite thorough) so I googled.
Richard himself acknowledged TSCP for the initial old Baron (which was completely rewritten IIRC) http://docs3.chomikuj.pl/2278220280,PL,0,0,readme.txt
A C K N O W L E D G E M E N T S
-------------------------------
I used ideas already implemented in other chess programs when writing my own chess
engine. The starting point was one of the smallest chess programs around: Tom's Simple
Chess Program version 1.73.
I would like to thank Tom Kerrigan for making the source of the program available.
Although all of Tom's original code has gone now, it gave me the opportunity
to quickly build a working program.
Current Baron must have zero lines from TSCP and there nothing wrong with it. Quoting Anthony Cozzie (googled from the winboard forum)
" If someone wants to create an engine with Glaurung as a base, I don't see why that is a problem, as long as they specifically note this on its webpage/credits/whatever. I know The Baron originally started out as TSCP; no one thinks any less of Richard for doing this. " http://www.open-aurec.com/wbforum/viewt ... TSCP#p3535
Having said that, Sedat has a criteria for his own tournament. He is not placing guilt or an ethical concerns, if I understand well. If he were, it would be a complete different story. As an example, he may not include Crafty because it is a continuation of Cray Blitz. He is not saying Bob is cloning himself. Some people have tournaments based on the language spoken by the author, the country, or whatever. Sedat may not include some engine if at one point a template was used, regardless of legitimacy.
These are topics in which people get really touchy, I understand that and the reasons for it, but in this thread nobody accused anybody of anything. I hope this won't turn into anything that would start offending people.
Miguel
Did you notice from which year this information is? Did you notice that Baron is a complete new engine from scratch?
The topic is not touchy. It is in information that is reliable.
Why Sedat asks directly to the Author instead causing so noising thread?
Computer chess forum is so absurd....
I do not see how you can notice that an engine is a complete new engine from scratch.
You can believe or not believe the author about it.
I believe richard in case of the baron but you are certainly not richard.
I also think that richard did nothing wrong in case that few lines of tscp(not of playing chess code) are still in the baron.
Note that so far approx. 2700 games are already played
And the scratch engine database includes 113 games lost on time
That means in every 100 games, there is possibility to see 3-4 games forfeits on time (the number is not too big, honestly I expected much more...)
Those games which are lost on time are mainly belong to Djinn v1.008 (39 games), without those lost games on time, probably Djinn would be in Top 20
Since today, I started testing only the Top 20 scratch engines
Soon I will test a few scratch engines more (Jazz,Milady,Neurone...)
Games and more info coming soon!
Have fun,
Sedat
I see that the baron is included in the scratch engines.
Note that I read that the baron started from tscp.
Note that I started from some code from tscp but not from some working code(For example the code that I started did not include something of the evaluation function of tscp) so it is not the same for movei.
I do not claim that the version of baron that you test is similiar to tscp
but it may be interesting to know results by the similiarity tool.
Baron is completely original. I suppose this kind of affirmation remembers me about your fantastic move 1. h3!!.
Any real chess programmer, who knows Richard Pijl, not you of course, can affirm without any doubt that new Baron was created from scratch. Your Movei is derived from TSCP because you said it openly here.
I find it so silly, that I suppose Richard will pass this. My goodness, the things that I have to read here!
Note that
I did not say that the new baron include something from tscp but only that baron started from tscp.
From the page that miguel gave:
"Although all of Tom's original code has gone now, it gave me the opportunity to quickly build a working program."
I admit openly that I started from some code of tscp that did not include evaluation function or move generator that it is clearly less than what Richard admitted.
You distort my words when you say that I admit openly that movei is a tscp derivative.
If we define chess code as code that is relevant only for chess and not for other games then
I think that there was never chess code that is common for movei and tscp(unless you consider some names of variables to be chess code).
The common pv array that movei use and also tscp use is not a chess code because it can be used also for other games and I do not consider the way that I store moves to be chess code(originally by struct like tscp and later I replaced it by integer)
I guess that when richard said that all of Tom's original code has gone now he meant only to chess code and I doubt that he replaced every line to see that there is no common lines between the baron and tscp.
No, I don't distort anything. It is you that affirms things without having any base. You said it here that Movei derived from TSCP. There is no distortion. Simple.
As always, you guess wrongly. Richard is an original chess programmer and his code is completely created from scratch, programe that you won't have.
End of story.
Richard doesn't post because he doesn't have time to read the silliness of post like this.... Blah... Blah... etc. Movei is derived engine too from TSCP. Using your words: I _guess_ you attack what you did not reach in years...
New Baron is an original engine but I _guess_ that you don't understand that. I _do not claim_ that Richard will read this. _My point_ was to show that you are always posting baseless statements.
I won't answer to Miguel since it doesn't make sense to explain 1000 times what is already known.
Have a _guessing weekend_
Arturo Ochoa.
Here is a link for my post
I did not say that movei is derived from tscp.
I did not start with tscp and most of the code of tscp was never in movei
and I understand the claim that movei is derived from tscp to be that I started from the full tscp code and modified it.
Note that I believe richard and I consider the baron as original engine
but
1)In order to have an original engine you do not need to have nothing from another code.
Chess programs use the same code for tablebases and people still consider them as original engines.
2)It is not clear to me what richard meant when he said
""Although all of Tom's original code has gone now"
It is possible that he meant only to what I consider to be chess code.
It is also possible that after starting from tscp he started again from scratch.
I believe what he is going to say about it but I do not believe you about it
after you distort my words.
1) So , in short, Movei is derived fully from TSCP. So, no need to say _I guess_. Indeed, it is fact. 1-0
2) So you know change from _I guess_ to _I believe_: Once you are wrong in your beliefs... New Baron is a completely original engine. 2-0
3) Baron has own tablebase,s so no Nalimov tablebases in new Baron. 3-0
4) As you did not read my answers: Baron is completly new. It is not _a possibility_. It is a fact. 4-0.
Note that so far approx. 2700 games are already played
And the scratch engine database includes 113 games lost on time
That means in every 100 games, there is possibility to see 3-4 games forfeits on time (the number is not too big, honestly I expected much more...)
Those games which are lost on time are mainly belong to Djinn v1.008 (39 games), without those lost games on time, probably Djinn would be in Top 20
Since today, I started testing only the Top 20 scratch engines
Soon I will test a few scratch engines more (Jazz,Milady,Neurone...)
Games and more info coming soon!
Have fun,
Sedat
I see that the baron is included in the scratch engines.
Note that I read that the baron started from tscp.
Note that I started from some code from tscp but not from some working code(For example the code that I started did not include something of the evaluation function of tscp) so it is not the same for movei.
I do not claim that the version of baron that you test is similiar to tscp
but it may be interesting to know results by the similiarity tool.
Baron is completely original. I suppose this kind of affirmation remembers me about your fantastic move 1. h3!!.
Any real chess programmer, who knows Richard Pijl, not you of course, can affirm without any doubt that new Baron was created from scratch. Your Movei is derived from TSCP because you said it openly here.
I find it so silly, that I suppose Richard will pass this. My goodness, the things that I have to read here!
Note that
I did not say that the new baron include something from tscp but only that baron started from tscp.
From the page that miguel gave:
"Although all of Tom's original code has gone now, it gave me the opportunity to quickly build a working program."
I admit openly that I started from some code of tscp that did not include evaluation function or move generator that it is clearly less than what Richard admitted.
You distort my words when you say that I admit openly that movei is a tscp derivative.
If we define chess code as code that is relevant only for chess and not for other games then
I think that there was never chess code that is common for movei and tscp(unless you consider some names of variables to be chess code).
The common pv array that movei use and also tscp use is not a chess code because it can be used also for other games and I do not consider the way that I store moves to be chess code(originally by struct like tscp and later I replaced it by integer)
I guess that when richard said that all of Tom's original code has gone now he meant only to chess code and I doubt that he replaced every line to see that there is no common lines between the baron and tscp.
No, I don't distort anything. It is you that affirms things without having any base. You said it here that Movei derived from TSCP. There is no distortion. Simple.
As always, you guess wrongly. Richard is an original chess programmer and his code is completely created from scratch, programe that you won't have.
End of story.
Richard doesn't post because he doesn't have time to read the silliness of post like this.... Blah... Blah... etc. Movei is derived engine too from TSCP. Using your words: I _guess_ you attack what you did not reach in years...
New Baron is an original engine but I _guess_ that you don't understand that. I _do not claim_ that Richard will read this. _My point_ was to show that you are always posting baseless statements.
I won't answer to Miguel since it doesn't make sense to explain 1000 times what is already known.
Have a _guessing weekend_
Arturo Ochoa.
Here is a link for my post
I did not say that movei is derived from tscp.
I did not start with tscp and most of the code of tscp was never in movei
and I understand the claim that movei is derived from tscp to be that I started from the full tscp code and modified it.
Note that I believe richard and I consider the baron as original engine
but
1)In order to have an original engine you do not need to have nothing from another code.
Chess programs use the same code for tablebases and people still consider them as original engines.
2)It is not clear to me what richard meant when he said
""Although all of Tom's original code has gone now"
It is possible that he meant only to what I consider to be chess code.
It is also possible that after starting from tscp he started again from scratch.
I believe what he is going to say about it but I do not believe you about it
after you distort my words.
1) So , in short, Movei is derived fully from TSCP. So, no need to say _I guess_. Indeed, it is fact. 1-0
2) So you know change from _I guess_ to _I believe_: Once you are wrong in your beliefs... New Baron is a completely original engine. 2-0
3) Baron has own tablebase,s so no Nalimov tablebases in new Baron. 3-0
4) As you did not read my answers: Baron is completly new. It is not _a possibility_. It is a fact. 4-0.
End of story. Over...
1 is not correct and you continue to claim things that are not correct.
I did not start with the full code of tscp and most of the code of tscp was never in movei.
for 2 Richard said nothing so it is undecided.
for 3 I did not claim that the baron use nalimov tablebases.
for 4
We do not know the facts.
There is no way to prove that engines are original when you do not have the source.
You can only decide if to trust or not trust the author(it is possible to prove that some engine is not original but you cannot catch all non original engines.
