ChessGUI 0.245f is available

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hgm
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Re: ChessGUI 0.245f is available

Post by hgm » Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:25 pm

Matthias Gemuh wrote:
hgm wrote::cry:
You mistakenly chose the wrong emoticon !

Maybe you meant 8-) or :D or :wink: ?
Not at all. You encourage non-compliancy amongst engine builders, by catering to their bugs. This will eventually lead to chaos.

I think that is a very bad thing. If Stockfish reports wrong scores, it should be fixed in Stockfish.

GUI developers should take responsibility to guard the standards.

Dirt
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Re: ChessGUI 0.245f is available

Post by Dirt » Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:38 pm

hgm wrote:I think that is a very bad thing. If Stockfish reports wrong scores, it should be fixed in Stockfish.
Why do you think Stockfish is wrong? I think it's just that the users are adapted to Houdini's evaluation now. Fixing users would seem to be the job of the GUI.

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hgm
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Re: ChessGUI 0.245f is available

Post by hgm » Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:45 pm

Well, if they differ, one of the two must be wrong. It should not be difficult to figure out which of the two. There are hundreds of engines that do it right. I use neither Houdini nor Stockfish, so I wouldn't know.

There is a clear standard for how scores should be reported, however (centiPawn), both in WB protocol and UCI. If engines report scores that should be multiplied by a fixed factor to be meaningfully compared with other engine scores, these engines are non-compliant, and should be fixed. Encouraging such non-compliance by letting the GUI fix it on an engine by engine basis is helping to create chaos.

If there are users that rather see the score in full Pawn units, or milliQueens, or 1/256 Pawns, then doing that conversion for all engines alike would be a GUI task. But users should not be bothered calibrating individual engines.

Modern Times
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Re: ChessGUI 0.245f is available

Post by Modern Times » Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:57 pm

I don't think there is a standard involved ? This is simply the engine's evaluation of the position. As it happens, Stockfish evaluations are a little different from say Houdini. And for example, I think Gaviota is usually a little more optimistic than other engines.

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Graham Banks
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Re: ChessGUI 0.245f is available

Post by Graham Banks » Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:23 pm

Matthias Gemuh wrote:ChessGUI 0.245f is available

... now supports Sysygy.


Matthias.
Matthias - have you managed to implement sudden death games for tied knockout matches?
If you haven't, I'd really appreciate it if you could.

The other feature that would be useful would be the evaluation given in brackets after each move in the displayed pgn.

Regards,
Graham.
My email addresses:
gbanksnz at gmail.com
gbanksnz at yahoo.co.nz

Martin Thoresen
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Re: ChessGUI 0.245f is available

Post by Martin Thoresen » Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:40 pm

Matthias Gemuh wrote:ChessGUI 0.245f is available

... now supports Sysygy.


Matthias.
Hi Matthias,

I've sent you several emails during the last few months but you haven't replied. My top requests:

1: Will you look to improve the pairing algorithm for round robins?
2: Is it possible to get the full PV instead of the 12 move limited version?

Best,
Martin

Uri Blass
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Re: ChessGUI 0.245f is available

Post by Uri Blass » Mon Dec 16, 2013 12:02 am

hgm wrote:Well, if they differ, one of the two must be wrong. It should not be difficult to figure out which of the two. There are hundreds of engines that do it right. I use neither Houdini nor Stockfish, so I wouldn't know.

There is a clear standard for how scores should be reported, however (centiPawn), both in WB protocol and UCI. If engines report scores that should be multiplied by a fixed factor to be meaningfully compared with other engine scores, these engines are non-compliant, and should be fixed. Encouraging such non-compliance by letting the GUI fix it on an engine by engine basis is helping to create chaos.

If there are users that rather see the score in full Pawn units, or milliQueens, or 1/256 Pawns, then doing that conversion for all engines alike would be a GUI task. But users should not be bothered calibrating individual engines.
I do not think that it is clear what is the meaning of a pawn with all the positional bonuses that programs have in their evaluation for mobility passed pawns and other things.

difference in a score between programs can be not because of different material evaluation but because of different positional evaluation.

The side that has material advantage often has more passed pawns or better mobility so practically the evaluation may be bigger than the material difference.

gladius
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Re: ChessGUI 0.245f is available

Post by gladius » Mon Dec 16, 2013 4:05 am

hgm wrote:Well, if they differ, one of the two must be wrong. It should not be difficult to figure out which of the two. There are hundreds of engines that do it right. I use neither Houdini nor Stockfish, so I wouldn't know.

There is a clear standard for how scores should be reported, however (centiPawn), both in WB protocol and UCI. If engines report scores that should be multiplied by a fixed factor to be meaningfully compared with other engine scores, these engines are non-compliant, and should be fixed. Encouraging such non-compliance by letting the GUI fix it on an engine by engine basis is helping to create chaos.

If there are users that rather see the score in full Pawn units, or milliQueens, or 1/256 Pawns, then doing that conversion for all engines alike would be a GUI task. But users should not be bothered calibrating individual engines.
SF reports scores in centipawns directly from the evaluation. Houdini actually scales it's internal scores into win probabilities. Both are completely valid IMO.

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Matthias Gemuh
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Re: ChessGUI 0.245f is available

Post by Matthias Gemuh » Mon Dec 16, 2013 9:12 am

Graham Banks wrote: Matthias - have you managed to implement sudden death games for tied knockout matches?
If you haven't, I'd really appreciate it if you could.

The other feature that would be useful would be the evaluation given in brackets after each move in the displayed pgn.

Regards,
Graham.
see pm.
My engine was quite strong till I added knowledge to it.
http://www.chess.hylogic.de

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Matthias Gemuh
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Re: ChessGUI 0.245f is available

Post by Matthias Gemuh » Mon Dec 16, 2013 9:17 am

Martin Thoresen wrote: Hi Matthias,

I've sent you several emails during the last few months but you haven't replied. My top requests:

1: Will you look to improve the pairing algorithm for round robins?
2: Is it possible to get the full PV instead of the 12 move limited version?

Best,
Martin
I don't think you earnestly expected me to reply to any of them. Why should I ?
I had a highlighting colour in your chat in Stage 1 of your Season 2 TCEC.
From Stage 2 onwards, you disqualified me from having a green colour in your chat. Even when I specifically asked for a green colour, you refused giving it, pointing me to a rule you had made that permits only engine authors to have a highlighting colour.
I have so far invested dozens of hours tweaking ChessGUI to meet your TCEC demands. Why should I continue doing the dirty work back-stage when a mere green colour in the chat is too much to honour me with ?
I understand that no other GUI is able to replace ChessGUI in TCEC at the
moment, so use it till alternatives become available.

Matthias.
My engine was quite strong till I added knowledge to it.
http://www.chess.hylogic.de

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