Why most engines can't find this mate in 3 ?

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Mincho Georgiev
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Re: Why most engines can't find this mate in 3 ?

Post by Mincho Georgiev »

Pawny's output (from a FEN as you said)

Code: Select all

setboard 1r3k1r/1bp5/1p1bR1Q1/3p4/3P4/2P5/P4PPP/6K1 w - - 0 1
go
 1 21          1.63 h2h4
 2 372         1.83 g6f5
 2 434         4.76 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6
 2 998         9.89 e6f6 f8e7 g6g7 e7d8 g7h8
 3 2           9.89 e6f6 f8e7 g6g7 e7d8 g7h8
 3 349         10.09 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6
 3 576         99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
 4 429         99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
 5 374         99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
 6 1603        99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
 7 730         99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
 8 1751        99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
 9 1559        99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
10 1895        99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
11 930         99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
12 2398        99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
13 2421        99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
14 2663        99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
15 2663        99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
16 2663        99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
17 2663        99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
18 2663        99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
19 2663        99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
20 2663        99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
21 2663        99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
22 2663        99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
23 2663        99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
24 2663        99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
25 2663        99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
26 2663        99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
27 2663        99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
28 2663        99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
29 2663        99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
30 2663        99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
31 2597        99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
32 2591        99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
33 2597        99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
34 2591        99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
35 2597        99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
36 2597        99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
37 2666        99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
38 2666        99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
39 2666        99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
40 2666        99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
41 2666        99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
42 2666        99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
43 2666        99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
44 2666        99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
45 2666        99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
46 2666        99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
47 2666        99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
48 2666        99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
49 2666        99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
50 2666        99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
51 2666        99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
52 2666        99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
53 2666        99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
54 2666        99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
55 2666        99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
56 2666        99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
57 2666        99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
58 2666        99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
59 2666        99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
60 2666        99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
61 2666        99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
62 2666        99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
63 2666        99.95 g6f5 f8g8 e6g6 g8h7 f5h5
   12337 Kn/s,  0.17 sec

move g6f5


gives mate in 3.
lech
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Re: And why most engines can't find this draw ?

Post by lech »

Marek Soszynski wrote:
Spliffjiffer wrote:Ka6 draws, but almost no engine can find it...
On my system Critter finds it in well under a minute. But I gave up waiting for Crafty, Firenzina, Komodo CCT, Shredder, various versions/derivatives of Stockfish...
Sting SF 3 solves it in 4 minutes on my dual core and beleive that all the others clones too. :lol:
Maybe, I can't be friendly, but let me be useful.
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hgm
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Re: Why most engines can't find this mate in 3 ?

Post by hgm »

Some carification:

In this game Ditrty seemed to exhibit a search bug. It was announcing mate in 10 while Spartacus was saying mated in 11. As the game progressed the engines kept disagreeing 1 ply. After 32... Kg7 Dirty's DTM suddenly jumped up. It obviously had not included that move in its tree as a valid defence. It recalculated a mate, and started to execute it, but again on the assumption that Kf8-g7 would not be a valid move. At that time Spartacus had lost the mate from view altogether (its score rising back to -3) because the only mates within its horizon would have to go over an already reached position, which it scored as 0. At some point Spartacus' score even fell back to 0 because actual repeats occured.

After Dirty was surprised by the Kg7 defence for the second time, it also lost the imagined too-fast mate from view, because it would involve repeats. Hence it advanced a Pawn to create a clean slate. There it finally did find a mate.
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Marek Soszynski
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Re: And why most engines can't find this draw ?

Post by Marek Soszynski »

lech wrote:
Marek Soszynski wrote:
Spliffjiffer wrote:Ka6 draws, but almost no engine can find it...
On my system Critter finds it in well under a minute. But I gave up waiting for Crafty, Firenzina, Komodo CCT, Shredder, various versions/derivatives of Stockfish...
Sting SF 3 solves it in 4 minutes on my dual core and beleive that all the others clones too. :lol:
Your patience was greater than mine.

On my system after a re-run:

Critter 45s
Sting 403s

Meanwhile stockfish_13060116_x64 is still looking after 1100+s (depth 39).
Marek Soszynski
F. Bluemers
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Re: Why most engines can't find this mate in 3 ?

Post by F. Bluemers »

Paloma wrote:
Peter Skinner wrote: Something is wrong with your engines of the interface you are using.

Peter
No, the reason is i analysis this direct in the game notation, not from the FEN-string :)

to show how different Analysis between FEN-string an Notation can be.

This occurs more often than you think.
It is therefore important from which case analysis starts.

Load this game and start from 34... Kf8

[Event "Int. CSVN Tournament"]
[Site "Leiden"]
[Date "2013.06.02"]
[Round "5.1"]
[White "Dirty"]
[Black "Spartacus"]
[ECO "A40"]
[Result "1-0"]

1. d4 b6 2. e4 Bb7 3. Nd2 e6 4. Ngf3 Nf6 5. Bd3 d5 6. exd5
exd5 7. O-O Nc6 8. Ne5 Nxe5 9. Re1 Nfd7 10. Nf3 Bb4 11. Bg5
f6 12. Nxe5 Nxe5 13. Rxe5+ Kf7 14. Qf3 a5 15. c3 Bd6
16. Re3 a4 17. Rae1 a3 18. Re6 axb2 19. Rxf6+ Kg8 20. Qh5
Qxf6 21. Bxf6 gxf6 22. Qg4+ Kf8 23. Qe6 b1=Q 24. Qxf6+ Kg8
25. Bxb1 Rf8 26. Qg5+ Kf7 27. Qf5+ Kg7 28. Qg4+ Kf7 29. Re6
Rb8 30. Bg6+ hxg6 31. Qxg6+ Kf8 32. Qf5+ Kg7 33. Qf6+ Kg8
34. Qg6+ Kf8 35. Qf5+ Kg7 36. f4 Rh6 37. Qg5+ Kf7 38. Qxh6
Be7 39. Qg6+ Kf8 40. Qf5+ Bf6 41. Rxf6+ Ke7 42. Rf7+ Kd8
43. Qd7# 1-0
Hi,Interesting,but more interesting is that Dirty saw M2 at move 32 if black would have played
32 Kf8 and normally it wouldn't have a problem mating in 2 after kg7.
Maybe the laptop overheated(turboboost) or it's bug but I can't reproduce it.
Best
Fonzy
F. Bluemers
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Re: Why most engines can't find this mate in 3 ?

Post by F. Bluemers »

Paloma wrote:
Peter Skinner wrote: Something is wrong with your engines of the interface you are using.

Peter
No, the reason is i analysis this direct in the game notation, not from the FEN-string :)

to show how different Analysis between FEN-string an Notation can be.

This occurs more often than you think.
It is therefore important from which case analysis starts.

Load this game and start from 34... Kf8

[Event "Int. CSVN Tournament"]
[Site "Leiden"]
[Date "2013.06.02"]
[Round "5.1"]
[White "Dirty"]
[Black "Spartacus"]
[ECO "A40"]
[Result "1-0"]

1. d4 b6 2. e4 Bb7 3. Nd2 e6 4. Ngf3 Nf6 5. Bd3 d5 6. exd5
exd5 7. O-O Nc6 8. Ne5 Nxe5 9. Re1 Nfd7 10. Nf3 Bb4 11. Bg5
f6 12. Nxe5 Nxe5 13. Rxe5+ Kf7 14. Qf3 a5 15. c3 Bd6
16. Re3 a4 17. Rae1 a3 18. Re6 axb2 19. Rxf6+ Kg8 20. Qh5
Qxf6 21. Bxf6 gxf6 22. Qg4+ Kf8 23. Qe6 b1=Q 24. Qxf6+ Kg8
25. Bxb1 Rf8 26. Qg5+ Kf7 27. Qf5+ Kg7 28. Qg4+ Kf7 29. Re6
Rb8 30. Bg6+ hxg6 31. Qxg6+ Kf8 32. Qf5+ Kg7 33. Qf6+ Kg8
34. Qg6+ Kf8 35. Qf5+ Kg7 36. f4 Rh6 37. Qg5+ Kf7 38. Qxh6
Be7 39. Qg6+ Kf8 40. Qf5+ Bf6 41. Rxf6+ Ke7 42. Rf7+ Kd8
43. Qd7# 1-0
Hi,Interesting,but more interesting is that Dirty saw M2 at move 32 if black would have played
32 Kf8 and normally it wouldn't have a problem mating in 2 after kg7.
Maybe the laptop overheated(turboboost) or it's bug but I can't reproduce it.
See also hgm's post above.
Best
Fonzy
lech
Posts: 1136
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:02 pm

Re: And why most engines can't find this draw ?

Post by lech »

Marek Soszynski wrote:
lech wrote:
Marek Soszynski wrote:
Spliffjiffer wrote:Ka6 draws, but almost no engine can find it...
On my system Critter finds it in well under a minute. But I gave up waiting for Crafty, Firenzina, Komodo CCT, Shredder, various versions/derivatives of Stockfish...
Sting SF 3 solves it in 4 minutes on my dual core and beleive that all the others clones too. :lol:
Your patience was greater than mine.

On my system after a re-run:

Critter 45s
Sting 403s

Meanwhile stockfish_13060116_x64 is still looking after 1100+s (depth 39).
Marek, I think in the near future the 1100+s is not any diference. :)
Maybe, I can't be friendly, but let me be useful.
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Steve Maughan
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Location: Florida, USA

Re: Why most engines can't find this mate in 3 ?

Post by Steve Maughan »

Hi Herbert,

Monarch is so weak, with hardly any clever extensions, it finds mate in 3 instantly. It only needs 719 nodes. I'm not sure what the problem is with other engines.

[D]1r3k1r/1bp5/1p1bR1Q1/3p4/3P4/2P5/P4PPP/6K1 w - -

Engine: Monarch 1.7 (1024 MB)
by Steve Maughan
3/09 0:00 +M3 1.Qf5+ Kg8 2.Rg6+ Kh7 3.Qh5+ (719)
4/09 0:00 +M3 1.Qf5+ Kg8 2.Rg6+ Kh7 3.Qh5+ (1.452)
5/09 0:00 +M3 1.Qf5+ Kg8 2.Rg6+ Kh7 3.Qh5+ (3.094)
best move: Qg6-f5 time: 0:00.406 min n/s: 22.428 nodes: 4.553
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hgm
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Re: Why most engines can't find this mate in 3 ?

Post by hgm »

Steve Maughan wrote:I'm not sure what the problem is with other engines.
How does Monarch handle the repetition after 1.Qf5+ then? Do you count only third occurrence as a draw?
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Steve Maughan
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Re: Why most engines can't find this mate in 3 ?

Post by Steve Maughan »

Oops, my mistake. I was analyzing the first occurrence. On the second occurrence Monarch makes the same mistake as everyone.

Monarch returns a draw when the position is encountered for the first time. I suppose an improvement would be return a draw on the first occurrence if both positions are part of the search and on the third occurrence if part of the game history.

Steve