Robert Flesher wrote:A beautiful position that illustrates the advantage that a single tempo can give. Then zugzwang and black is lost. The key to this position is looking at it yourself, before using an engine. It's very instructive! Some very strong engine(s) also struggle here. Komodo CCT after 5 min cannot see the win on my machine.
[D]4k3/5ppp/8/8/8/8/PPP5/3K4 w - - 0 1
Humans cannot calculate all possible lines so how looking at it by myself can help?
seeing the solution does not help to be able to practically win it because black can practically play a different move.
For example 1.Ke2 Ke7 or 1.Ke2 a5 or 1.Ke2 Kd7 2.Kf3 Kc6
Impossible to calculate all lines and if humans can understand that white wins then I would like to read some strategy that tells me what to do in every position and not a variation.
Hi Uri, I did not say calculate it youself. I said look at the position yourself without an engine. You of all people I thought would understand this. LOL, I guess not!. I studied and learned the secrets of this postion without an engine. I wanted people to move the pieces and try to understand this position. I guess this was the wrong place to post this.
Since i can see by myself why 18...h2 was forced, and that it loses, so all i need now is to try to see if there is any other improvement before that.
Obviously you have already done all that, and found it is a forced win in every variation, and therefore it looks like a wonderful bit of endgame technique to be familiar with.
[Oh! and I am refering to the 32 move variation by Critter which someone put up on the first page here.]
Robert Flesher wrote:A beautiful position that illustrates the advantage that a single tempo can give. Then zugzwang and black is lost. The key to this position is looking at it yourself, before using an engine. It's very instructive! Some very strong engine(s) also struggle here. Komodo CCT after 5 min cannot see the win on my machine.
[D]4k3/5ppp/8/8/8/8/PPP5/3K4 w - - 0 1
Humans cannot calculate all possible lines so how looking at it by myself can help?
seeing the solution does not help to be able to practically win it because black can practically play a different move.
For example 1.Ke2 Ke7 or 1.Ke2 a5 or 1.Ke2 Kd7 2.Kf3 Kc6
Impossible to calculate all lines and if humans can understand that white wins then I would like to read some strategy that tells me what to do in every position and not a variation.
Hi Uri, I did not say calculate it youself. I said look at the position yourself without an engine. You of all people I thought would understand this. LOL, I guess not!. I studied and learned the secrets of this postion without an engine. I wanted people to move the pieces and try to understand this position. I guess this was the wrong place to post this.
Since i can see by myself why 18...h2 was forced, and that it loses, so all i need now is to try to see if there is any other improvement before that.
Obviously you have already done all that, and found it is a forced win in every variation, and therefore it looks like a wonderful bit of endgame technique to be familiar with.
[Oh! and I am refering to the 32 move variation by Critter which someone put up on the first page here.]
Arpad Rusz wrote:If one sets the critical position's value to DRAW, FinalGen reports a win for 1.Ke2 and 1.Ke1.
Sorry, I made a mistake in my previous post. You should read:
If one sets the critical position's value to WHITE WINS, FinalGen reports a win for 1.Ke2 and 1.Ke1.
Arpad Rusz wrote:If one sets the critical position's value to DRAW, FinalGen reports a win for 1.Ke2 and 1.Ke1.
Sorry, I made a mistake in my previous post. You should read:
If one sets the critical position's value to WHITE WINS, FinalGen reports a win for 1.Ke2 and 1.Ke1.
duncan wrote:tried your position, for some reason did not get your results. did you do no 50 rules move ?
Yes, I did used "No 50 moves rule (Depth To Promotion)".
Now I managed to get more precise results using two seeded positions:
[D]8/8/8/PkP5/1P4p1/5pKp/8/8 b - - 0 1 WHITE WINS
[D]8/8/PkP5/1P4p1/5pKp/8/8/8 w - - 0 1 BLACK WINS
From [D]4k3/5ppp/8/8/8/8/PPP5/3K4 w - - 0 1 I've got the following values:
Ke2 White wins in 24
Ke1 White wins in 25
c4 White wins or Draw
a4 White wins or Draw
b4 Draw
c3 Black wins in 25
b3 Black wins in 25
a3 Black wins in 25
Kd2 Black wins in 25
Kc1 Black wins in 25
duncan wrote:tried your position, for some reason did not get your results. did you do no 50 rules move ?
Yes, I did used "No 50 moves rule (Depth To Promotion)".
Now I managed to get more precise results using two seeded positions:
[D]8/8/8/PkP5/1P4p1/5pKp/8/8 b - - 0 1 WHITE WINS
[D]8/8/PkP5/1P4p1/5pKp/8/8/8 w - - 0 1 BLACK WINS
From [D]4k3/5ppp/8/8/8/8/PPP5/3K4 w - - 0 1 I've got the following values:
Ke2 White wins in 24
Ke1 White wins in 25
c4 White wins or Draw
a4 White wins or Draw
b4 Draw
c3 Black wins in 25
b3 Black wins in 25
a3 Black wins in 25
Kd2 Black wins in 25
Kc1 Black wins in 25
thanks. very useful.
how did you get 2 positions in the finalgen. did you use include in file facility ? (I could not get mine to work)
After you click the "Set value" button, you can set another position, etc.
If you want to use a file, that should be a .txt file with FENs. The values are set by using the letters W, D, or L (Win, Draw, Lost) before every FEN string followed by '|'. E.g.:
W|8/8/8/PkP5/1P4p1/5pKp/8/8 b - - 0 1
L|8/8/PkP5/1P4p1/5pKp/8/8/8 w - - 0 1
D|8/8/PkP5/1P3pp1/5K1p/8/8/8 w - - 0 1
D|8/8/8/P1k5/1PP3p1/5pKp/8/8 b - - 0 1