Testposition 60 - Bishop vs Knight

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Kyodai
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Re: Testposition 60 - Bishop vs Knight

Post by Kyodai »

Yes - you're right - the main variation should be 7.f3 - constructing the
Karsten Barrier with pawns b3-f3-g4-h4 - Nd4 (e2-c2) and K somewhere on the third rank.

There are many variations and this is really both thiresome and time consuming - but very interesting!

1) First mission now will be to win if Karsten's Barrier is kept as long as possible
(i.e. trying to hold the tin can intact)

2) Second to win vs the different tryings of breakout like b4 or f4 somewhere.

(Even then we are a step further than the GM:s who wanted to keep the
barrier for white)

I sent you a PM with my e-mail adress :)
peter
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Full name: Peter Martan

Re: Testposition 60 - Bishop vs Knight

Post by peter »

Kyodai wrote: I sent you a PM with my e-mail adress :)
Email for you
:)
Peter.
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Kyodai
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Re: Testposition 60 - Bishop vs Knight

Post by Kyodai »

Thanks Peter - got it :)

And for those who want to jump in the middle of all unclear variations -
the main issue is to find the optimized setup for black.

[D]6k1/p2b1ppp/8/8/3N4/1P5P/5PP1/6K1 b - - 0 1


Now we try

1...Kf8 2.Kf1 Ke7 3.Ke2 Kd6 4.Kd3 Kd5 5.h4 h5 6.g3 f6

keeping the bishop on d7 for a while - waiting for white to build his
Karsten Barrier with pawns b3-f3-g3-h4 - Nd4 (e2-c2) - King somewhere
on the third rank.

Yes, we manage to force white to open up his tin can. In several variations
he has to play either b4 or f4 and go for more active tactics with the Knight.
But looks sufficient for white so far............
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Houdini
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Re: Testposition 60 - Bishop vs Knight

Post by Houdini »

peter wrote:Maybe we should change to email not to overcharge this thread here?
Please continue to post here, it's fascinating.

From an engine developer's point of view, I'd love to see some similar positions (but with a different pawn configuration) where the Bishop side is - nearly - wining but our engines only give a very small advantage (say 0.2).

Robert
Lyudmil Tsvetkov
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Re: Testposition 60 - Bishop vs Knight

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov »

Kyodai wrote:Thanks Peter - got it :)

And for those who want to jump in the middle of all unclear variations -
the main issue is to find the optimized setup for black.

[D]6k1/p2b1ppp/8/8/3N4/1P5P/5PP1/6K1 b - - 0 1


Now we try

1...Kf8 2.Kf1 Ke7 3.Ke2 Kd6 4.Kd3 Kd5 5.h4 h5 6.g3 f6

keeping the bishop on d7 for a while - waiting for white to build his
Karsten Barrier with pawns b3-f3-g3-h4 - Nd4 (e2-c2) - King somewhere
on the third rank.

Yes, we manage to force white to open up his tin can. In several variations
he has to play either b4 or f4 and go for more active tactics with the Knight.
But looks sufficient for white so far............
Hi Sune.
Just to suggest a couple more variations after an early b4.
1...Kf8 2.b4 Ke7 3. Kf1 Kd6 4. Ke2 Kd5 5. Kd3 and now:
5...Bc8 (I think this is unnatural) 6. Kc3 Ba6 7. b5 Bb7 (7...Bc8 8. Nc6) 8. Nb3 (controlling the c5 square) and white seems to be already a tiny bit better, having counterchances on the queen side and threatening Kb4, Na5, etc.
5... a6 6. f3 (controlling e4) g5 (6...Bb5 7. Nb5 ab5 8. g3 should be a simple draw) 7. Kc3 Ke5 8. Kd3 Kf4 9. Ne2 with a draw

So overall, I do not manage to find a win for black after an early b4 (but I might have missed something as I am computing only mentally).
It seems to me that in the variations you are considering in the thread (as well as in the one played by Stolts) playing the white pawn on h4 is not a good decision, and you take that for granted, as it is more easily attacked there. The main intention would be to build an area inaccessible to the black king and having pawns on squares the colour of the enemy bishop would have less significance at this point of time. A more compact structure on the king side would favour white more. I suggest looking at structures like f3-g4-h3, f3-g3-h3 or even f3-g2-h3.
On the other hand, an early b4 succeeds in banning the bishop from the a6-f1 diagonal and simultaneously frees the b3 square for the knight (from where it can control c5, but also go to d2, a5 etc.)

Best, Lyudmil
Lyudmil Tsvetkov
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Re: Testposition 60 - Bishop vs Knight

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov »

Houdini wrote:
peter wrote:Maybe we should change to email not to overcharge this thread here?
Please continue to post here, it's fascinating.

From an engine developer's point of view, I'd love to see some similar positions (but with a different pawn configuration) where the Bishop side is - nearly - wining but our engines only give a very small advantage (say 0.2).

Robert
Hi Robert.
Posting too much these days, but when you are bored, obviously, there is nothing else to do but post on a forum.
Removing the g2 and g7 pawns and the f2 and f7 pawns from the main diagram (and placing the white h pawn on h2 in the first case, so that it is not attacked by the bishop) would be two such positions. Both should be won for black. In distinction to the main diagram, the bishop side will be favoured by:
- bigger number of groups (isolated pawns)
- bigger distance in between the pawns of the defending side on both wings
- inability for the weaker side to construct a fortress

Placing the white pawn on a3 instead of b3 from the main diagram should also be a position, won for black, as the distance between the pawns of the defending side on both wings increases and the are no chances for a fortress.
Placing the black pawn on b7 instead of a7 from the main diagram already increases white's drawing chances, as symmetrical pawn structures generally favour the weaker side.

Larger blocked pawn structures on the king side (white pawns on f3,g4,h5; black pawns on f4,g5,h6) would favour the weaker side, as the objects of attack would decrease to just the base pawn of the chain (f3). At the same time, such a structure is an ideal fortress.
Blocked pawns, even when they are not part of a bigger structure (for example white pawns on f3 and h4; black pawns on f4 and h5), will always favour the knight, as blocked pawns are attached to a square of particular colour, and, while the bishop can only access squares of only one colour, the knight is able to access squares of both colours. Btw, the above-mentioned position is an ideal example for a fortress on the king side: all squares are either controlled by friendly pawns, or occupied by enemy blocked pawns, h4 controls g5, on h5 there is a blocked pawn, g4 is controlled by f3, on f4 there is a blocked pawn and e4 is controlled by f3, so no passage there.
Playing 1...a5 on the first move for black (if tactically justified; probably not, I did not count tempos, just a principled decision) would make out of b3 a semi-static object (meaning that upon advancing it could be captured), and such pawns are more vulnerable; besides, a static pawn on a square the colour of the bishop will always be welcome for the bishop side.

Having advantage on the side with the lower number of pawns is always more welcome than having advantage (presumably space advantage) on the other side, as the resistance faced is smaller; just along the same lines a passer would be more welcome than a potential passer, because the potential passer still has to become a passer.

But, of course, one can only be certain when the game is played out. As you know much better than me, the interplay of different factors can completely change the importance of any single one of them.

Sorry again for posting, probably meaningless, but again, when you are bored, there is nothing else to do but post on a forum :).

Lyudmil
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Kyodai
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Re: Testposition 60 - Bishop vs Knight

Post by Kyodai »

Nothing new here. I'll be taking a short break from this position - getting some perspective - and maybe consulting some good chessplayers known for their ability to visualize what position they want to achieve i.e. in this position the optimal setup for black
Mark
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Re: Testposition 60 - Bishop vs Knight

Post by Mark »

I set this position up in IDeA a few days ago. I haven't been interactive with it yet, but hope to find some time this weekend. Anyway, if anyone is analyzing this and has a particular position that is of interest, I'd be glad to make it a root node and let IDeA go at it.
bob
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Re: Testposition 60 - Bishop vs Knight

Post by bob »

Uri Blass wrote:
tano-urayoan wrote:
Karlo Bala wrote:
bob wrote: Bishop and knight are not "near equal" in an endgame with pawns on both wings. Bishop is clearly superior there as it can reach squares in one move that take a knight 2-3 (or more) moves to reach. I have an evaluation term for this, where I think the idea came from Fine/Kmoch/et. al.
That is an exaggeration based on one particular position. Pawns on both wings means nothing. Take for example the position from the famous Saidy vs Fischer (1964) game. Semi open position, pawns on both wings, no blocked pawns. Position is probably slightly better for black but Fischer won that game easily (partly because he is the Fischer).

[D]6k1/1p1n1ppp/p7/3p4/3P4/P7/1P3PPP/2B3K1 w - - 0 1
Your example is different because of the d4-d5 pawns cut the board in two. This is different as premise of pawns in both wings without central pawns present which is the context made by Dr. Hyatt.
The example is different but
karlo is right.

The bishop is not generally better when there are pawns in both wings.

if you talk about the case when there are pawns in both wings and the side with the bishop has no central blocked pawns that block the bishop to move then it is a different case.
The general definition of "pawns on both wings" simply means two pawn islands, one on the king side, one on the queen side, and most commonly, no d/e pawns which would connect those two islands completely or partially.

In such positions, the bishop can reach either wing instantly. If you stick a pawn mass in the center, then the bishop partially loses that advantage.

An easy test is to make a test run where you (a) give no bonus for a bishop vs knight with pawn on abc and fgh files, or (b) give the bonus, even without paying any attention to whether there are d/e pawns or not. My program scored better with than without, even if I elected to not be precise and exclude d/e or a blocked d/e pawn... Which means the rule is right more times than it is wrong, period...