This is merely a discussion (and a celebrated game!) of B vs Kn in an ending with pawns on both flanks.
Such an ending is very difficult to hold for white
[D]6k1/p2b1ppp/8/8/3N4/1P5P/5PP1/6K1 b - - 0 1
[pgn][Event "Bishop Superiority"]
[Site "The Hague"]
[Date "1928.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Stoltz"]
[Black "Kashdan"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Annotator "Larsson"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "6k1/p2b1ppp/8/8/3N4/1P5P/5PP1/6K1 b - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "39"]
[EventDate "1928.??.??"]
{This position is from Stoltz-Kashdan 1928. A celebrated ending where the
existence of pawns on both wings on an open board emphasizes the bishop's
superiority over the knight.} 1... Kf8 2. Kf1 Ke7 3. Ke2 Kd6 4. Kd3 Kd5 5. h4
Bc8 {Black's bishop helps push the white king backwards, enhancing the scope
of his own king.} 6. Nf3 Ba6+ 7. Kc3 h6 8. Nd4 g6 9. Nc2 Ke4 10. Ne3 f5 11. Kd2
f4 12. Ng4 h5 13. Nf6+ Kf5 14. Nd7 Bc8 15. Nf8 g5 16. g3 gxh4 17. gxh4 Kg4 18.
Ng6 Bf5 19. Ne7 Be6 20. b4 Kxh4 {and the passed h-pawn carried the day.} 0-1[/pgn]
Testposition 60 - Bishop vs Knight
Moderators: hgm, Rebel, chrisw
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- Full name: Werner Schüle
Re: Testposition 60 - Bishop vs Knight
Hi Sune,
yes really complicated. My programs here prefer
9. b4 or 9. f3 instead of 9. Nc2
I wish you all the best for 2013!
yes really complicated. My programs here prefer
9. b4 or 9. f3 instead of 9. Nc2
I wish you all the best for 2013!
Werner
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Re: Testposition 60 - Bishop vs Knight
I tried to locate a more exact date but could not find it online, did not search any databases. Here is a picture of Isaac Kashdan playing against the great Alexander Alekhine, (world champion at the time I think?), in Pasadena 1932. There are two other famous chessplayers in the photo, the one on the far right I had no trouble with, but the player next to him I did not recognize, even after I knew he was in the picture somewhere ( had to look up other photographs to tentatively confirm his identity. Does anybody see who this American chessplayer is, without looking up the picture?
Alekhine vs. Kashdan
Alekhine vs. Kashdan
Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first
place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you
are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
-- Brian W. Kernighan
place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you
are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
-- Brian W. Kernighan
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- Full name: Andrew R Case
Re: Testposition 60 - Bishop vs Knight
I'm going to take a guess here (based on the date)...is it Rueben Fine?
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Re: Testposition 60 - Bishop vs Knight
Without looking at the game or at any engine analysis, I find it hard to believe that this position would be lost for White.Kyodai wrote:This is merely a discussion (and a celebrated game!) of B vs Kn in an ending with pawns on both flanks.
Such an ending is very difficult to hold for white
Maybe Black has a very slight advantage with the bishop against knight, but I cannot believe it's enough for the win.
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Re: Testposition 60 - Bishop vs Knight
Yes! That is very good Andrew! But I have to go on his hairline, eyebrows and the shape of his ears mostly, because in later pictures he had a much broader face. But I think that that is Fine. The only book I have of him is "The Ideas behind the Chess Openings", I do not have his work on endgames. I think that is still a useful book today as an introduction to opening theory, even though I can't say that I have studied it much.acase wrote:I'm going to take a guess here (based on the date)...is it Rueben Fine?
Eelco
Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first
place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you
are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
-- Brian W. Kernighan
place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you
are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
-- Brian W. Kernighan
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Re: Testposition 60 - Bishop vs Knight
Well, actually I would go a couple of steps further with this position - i.e.Houdini wrote:Without looking at the game or at any engine analysis, I find it hard to believe that this position would be lost for White.Kyodai wrote:This is merely a discussion (and a celebrated game!) of B vs Kn in an ending with pawns on both flanks.
Such an ending is very difficult to hold for white
Maybe Black has a very slight advantage with the bishop against knight, but I cannot believe it's enough for the win.
I would rather call it "a distinct or clear advantage" for black. The main
issue for the bishop's supremacy is of course pawns on both flanks.
Yesterday I looked around a bit to see if this game was carefully commented somewhere. But couldn't find anything that could cast further
light over this issue (won for black or not?)
Merely a feeling - but I don't expect any GM to really state that this is
a winning position for black - more like it practically is very very difficult to defend for white. But I don't know - will check up with a GM of elo 2580,
maybe also with endgame specialist Karsten Muller.
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Re: Testposition 60 - Bishop vs Knight
"I tried to locate a more exact date but could not find it online, did not search any databases. Here is a picture of Isaac Kashdan playing against the great Alexander Alekhine.."
Eelco: This is really a very relaxed, concentrated and beautiful picture!
It's very nice to look at the old photos from chessmasters and tournaments!
The game mentioned was played at the Olympics in Haag 1928 - will have
a look at the database when I get back home today.
Eelco: This is really a very relaxed, concentrated and beautiful picture!
It's very nice to look at the old photos from chessmasters and tournaments!
The game mentioned was played at the Olympics in Haag 1928 - will have
a look at the database when I get back home today.
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Re: Testposition 60 - Bishop vs Knight
Looks like the game Stoltz-Kashdan was played 30/7 1928 in the Hauge
Btw - here is another picture from 1942 (scroll to page 4/11)
http://www.chesscafe.com/text/urcan16.pdf
Btw - here is another picture from 1942 (scroll to page 4/11)
http://www.chesscafe.com/text/urcan16.pdf
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Re: Testposition 60 - Bishop vs Knight
I would be shocked if this game were forcibly won for Black, or even if were considered as a clear advantage for Black.Kyodai wrote:Well, actually I would go a couple of steps further with this position - i.e.
I would rather call it "a distinct or clear advantage" for black. The main
issue for the bishop's supremacy is of course pawns on both flanks.
It would strongly violate the near-equality of Knight and Bishop in chess.
Robert