some discussion of GUI's

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

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Matthias Gemuh
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Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:10 am

Re: some discussion of GUI's

Post by Matthias Gemuh »

Rebel wrote:
Matthias Gemuh wrote: From next February on, I may start polishing up a few rough edges.
Matthias,

I never tried your GUI. I have a couple of questions,

1. Can the engine force the GUI to draw? I hate those KQKQ | KRKR etc. endings spilling my computer time.

2. Can the engine force the GUI into an unterminated game? Testing (for instance) King Safety I want to have the possibility to terminate the game when the queens disappear. Speed-up testing is again the thought behind.
Hi Ed,

as one who has programmed great GUIs in the past, you would be offended by current ChessGUI. It is a mine field for insiders only.
Wait till some notorious mines are neutralised. :wink:

ChessGUI adjudicates "long drawish" games even without EGTB.

ChessGUI cannot terminate an undecided game. Would GUI have to adjudicate it as draw ?

My website is http://biglion.bplaced.net.

Cheers,
Matthias.
My engine was quite strong till I added knowledge to it.
http://www.chess.hylogic.de
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Matthias Gemuh
Posts: 3245
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:10 am

Re: some discussion of GUI's

Post by Matthias Gemuh »

Graham Banks wrote:
Rebel wrote:
Graham Banks wrote:
Rebel wrote: When I want to download ChessGui from http://biglion.110mb.com/ Microsoft Security Essentials reports the site is unsafe.
Ignore it.
Not me. The internet is a dangerous place.
I can assure you that Matthias' site is safe.
Interestingly I also use Microsoft Security Essentials and I don't get the message that you do.

Try this direct download link - http://biglion.110mb.com/chess/ChessGUI_net.zip
Sorry for not informing anyone. :oops:

My website is http://biglion.bplaced.net.

Cheers,
Matthias.
My engine was quite strong till I added knowledge to it.
http://www.chess.hylogic.de
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hgm
Posts: 27795
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 10:06 am
Location: Amsterdam
Full name: H G Muller

Re: some discussion of GUI's

Post by hgm »

Rebel wrote:If you add such functionality I am sold to Winboard :wink:
Consider it done!

You can download it from http://hgm.nubati.net/WinBoard-4.7.beta.zip. (beware this is a bare winboard.exe, completely unconfigured. I have not made a configured install for 4.7 yet, but if you have no WinBoard installed at all, it might be better to first instal http://hgm.nubati.net/WinBoard-Portable.zip , and then replace the winboard.exe of that.

The 4.7.beta should react to 1/2-1/2 {Engine Abort Request} , but only if 'Verify engine claims' is off (to not make cheating too easy, as it would not leave any trace in the PGN now!) This should 'expunge' the current game.

I did not test this, as I have no engine that prints this message. I am pretty sure this should work, though, as the code I added (in GameEnds())was quite simple:

Code: Select all

    } else if(matchMode && result == GameIsDrawn && !strcmp(resultDetails, "Engine Abort Request")) {
        forwardMostMove = backwardMostMove; // [HGM] delete entire game to surpress saving
        result = GameUnfinished;
        if(!*appData.tourneyFile) matchGame--; // replay even in plain match
    }
In a tourney 'matchGame' is not a counting variable, and aborted games were replayed already (to allow you to quit WinBoard and then later resume the tourney by double-clicking the tourney file).
Last edited by hgm on Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
carldaman
Posts: 2283
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:13 am

Re: some discussion of GUI's

Post by carldaman »

hgm wrote:
carldaman wrote:Winboard has a nice minimalistic look, ... It has proper chess960 support, and allows swiss tournaments. The main problem for me is the lack of easy book editing and importing tools/features.
What is wrong with WinBoard's Edit->Edit Book function?

What do you mean by 'importing tools/features'? Can you give an example?
When I try to use Edit Book, a blank window opens up, with a greyed-out Edit button at the bottom. It seems there is nothing to edit, and no way that I see to actually load a book.

As far as importing pgn files into a book, I know it's possible through the command line, but I don't find it user friendly. I suspect I'm not the only one to think this way. We're not all computer whiz kids :( .

I hope a way to view tournament tables in real time is implemented, (as well as tablebase adjudications). Imagine testing a bunch of engines in a long tournament, and there's no direct way to see the live standings. That's a bummer and most (serious and casual) testers will shy away from WB for this reason alone. An option to pause the tournament after the current game, as Arena does, would also be useful.

Sorry if it seems that I'm emphasizing the negatives. Winboard is very good overall and can be better in some areas. Many thanks for your work, HG. I hope we see (more) great things in the future.

Regards,
CL
carldaman
Posts: 2283
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:13 am

Re: Nope

Post by carldaman »

Sylwy wrote:
carldaman wrote:
There's also the ShredderGUI, which is not bad at all, but lacks adjudication features, and this is a royal pain. There's good built-in support for WB engines as well as UCI. If improved in some areas, it can become a great GUI for engine tournaments.
:lol:

The single Shredder GUI support for the Winboard protocol is...........an incorporated Wb2Uci adaptor ! Take a look - please - to its files !

SilvianR :wink:
Hey Ruxy, I was able to run Crafty without glitches, and I haven't run into engines that didn't work yet. I did notice the incorporated adapter. I'm sure that could be improved, among other things, if enough people let the author know about it.

Have you had any problems running WB engines in Shredder?

Regards,
CL
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Rebel
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Re: some discussion of GUI's

Post by Rebel »

This is great HGM, thank you.
Christopher Conkie
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Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2006 9:34 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: some discussion of GUI's

Post by Christopher Conkie »

Rebel wrote:This is great HGM, thank you.
Praise the Lord.

:-)

Chris
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hgm
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Full name: H G Muller

Re: some discussion of GUI's

Post by hgm »

carldaman wrote:When I try to use Edit Book, a blank window opens up, with a greyed-out Edit button at the bottom. It seems there is nothing to edit, and no way that I see to actually load a book.
That the 'Edit' button is grayed out is normal: this is what WinBoard does in its Edit dialogs (Edit Comment, Edit Tags, Edit Engine List) when you already are in edit mode. The strange thing is that there is nothing to edit.

The idea is that you would edit the currently loaded GUI book. (Which can be set from Common Engine Options). When I do this with the default_book.bin in the opening position, I get to see this:

Code: Select all

 46.0% 12121 e2e4
 37.6%  9907 d2d4
  9.2%  2414 g1f3
  6.4%  1683 c2c4
  0.7%   176 g2g3
  0.1%    20 b2b3
  0.0%    13 b1c3
  0.0%    11 f2f4
The window should only be empty if you are in a position for which there are no moves in the book. You can then still edit it, by adding a move. (But this is a bit difficult if you have no example of how the format should be.) The percentages, btw, are just an aid to the eye; you don't have to alter those, and next time you get the same position in the edit dialog they will be recomputed based on your edited weights.

It would be a bit weird if the opening position was empty. Even if somehow the book was not valid, it should produce an error popup to tell you that.
As far as importing pgn files into a book, I know it's possible through the command line, but I don't find it user friendly. I suspect I'm not the only one to think this way. We're not all computer whiz kids :( .
In the 4.7 beta you can create a book through the GUI. I don't believe this was possible at all in any earlier WinBoard version. People used Polyglot to do it. (But that only supports orthodox Chess, so it was no good to me.) Now it is just a matter of loading the PGN file and click the 'File -> Save games as Book' menu item.
I hope a way to view tournament tables in real time is implemented, (as well as tablebase adjudications).
I always do that by detting WinBoard's -afterGame option to my favorite PGN-to-cross-table converter, and then open the file that it produces in my internet browser, so that I can simply refresh it whenever I want to see the latest standings. I do not like to built this into WinBoard, because WB's TM is designed fo concurrent play, and there is no need to show the cross tablemultiple times. And I want to be able to see the standings not only when the tourney is running, but also of old tourneys that have already finished. Perhaps I will make a separate tool to show a PGN as cross-table, which does live update when the PGN changes.
An option to pause the tournament after the current game, as Arena does, would also be useful.
That already exists: you just click Mode->Machine Match (again) to toggle the match / tourney mode off. This then takes effect afte the current game finishes.
Sorry if it seems that I'm emphasizing the negatives. Winboard is very good overall and can be better in some areas. Many thanks for your work, HG. I hope we see (more) great things in the future.
Well, don't worry, I appreciate constructive criticism. It can only lead to further improvement.
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Rebel
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Re: some discussion of GUI's

Post by Rebel »

Matthias Gemuh wrote:
Rebel wrote:
Matthias Gemuh wrote: From next February on, I may start polishing up a few rough edges.
Matthias,

I never tried your GUI. I have a couple of questions,

1. Can the engine force the GUI to draw? I hate those KQKQ | KRKR etc. endings spilling my computer time.

2. Can the engine force the GUI into an unterminated game? Testing (for instance) King Safety I want to have the possibility to terminate the game when the queens disappear. Speed-up testing is again the thought behind.
Hi Ed,

as one who has programmed great GUIs in the past, you would be offended by current ChessGUI. It is a mine field for insiders only.
Wait till some notorious mines are neutralised. :wink:

ChessGUI adjudicates "long drawish" games even without EGTB.

ChessGUI cannot terminate an undecided game. Would GUI have to adjudicate it as draw ?

My website is http://biglion.bplaced.net.

Cheers,
Matthias.
Got ChessGui now! and without living dangerously :wink: I will take my chances on your mine field since I have trust in the positive responses your lifework in this thread have gotten.

Thanks!
Christopher Conkie
Posts: 6073
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2006 9:34 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: some discussion of GUI's

Post by Christopher Conkie »

Well, don't worry, I appreciate constructive criticism. It can only lead to further improvement.
Anything you do that can constructively improve Arena is gratefully accepted Harm.

We think you are doing a fantastic open source job for no money.

Thanks again btw.

:)

Chris