Rybka 4.1 is still unbeatable in some positions

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Jouni
Posts: 3293
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:15 pm

Rybka 4.1 is still unbeatable in some positions

Post by Jouni »

In Albillo 91 Rybka is only top engine to find mate in 11 in my PC. And not only one but 4 different!

[D]3qk3/8/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQ - 0 1

Analysis by Rybka 4.1:

1. +- (#11): 1.e4 Kf8 2.Qf3+ Kg7 3.Qg4+ Kf7 4.Bc4+ Ke8 5.Bb5+ Kf7 6.Qh5+ Ke6 7.Nc3 Qf6 8.Nd5 Qf7 9.Bd7+ Qxd7 10.Qg6+ Ke5 11.Nf3#
2. +- (#11): 1.e3 Qg5 2.Qf3 Ke7 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.Nd5+ Ke6 5.Qf6+ Kd7 6.Qg7+ Kc6 7.e4 Qd8 8.Nf3 Qd7 9.Nd4+ Kd6 10.Qf6+ Kc5 11.b4#
3. +- (#11): 1.Nc3 Kf8 2.e4 Qc8 3.Qh5 Qe6 4.Nf3 Qf7 5.Qh3 Kg7 6.Ne5 Qf4 7.d4 Qf6 8.Bc4 Kf8 9.Bh6+ Qg7 10.Bxg7+ Ke7 11.Qd7#
4. +- (#11): 1.d4 Qd5 2.Nc3 Qe6 3.e4 Kf8 4.Qh5 Kg7 5.Qc5 Kg6 6.Qf8 Kh7 7.Nh3 Qg6 8.Ng5+ Qxg5 9.Bxg5 Kg6 10.Qg8+ Kh5 11.Be2#

Is it possible to run perft(21) or similar to get the truth in this one??
Jouni
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elpapa
Posts: 211
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:27 pm
Location: Sweden
Full name: Patrik Karlsson

Re: Rybka 4.1 is still unbeatable in some positions

Post by elpapa »

Jouni wrote:Is it possible to run perft(21) or similar to get the truth in this one??
My guess is the sun will turn into a white dwarf before the perft(21) is finished.
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syzygy
Posts: 5566
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:56 pm

Re: Rybka 4.1 is still unbeatable in some positions

Post by syzygy »

elpapa wrote:
Jouni wrote:Is it possible to run perft(21) or similar to get the truth in this one??
My guess is the sun will turn into a white dwarf before the perft(21) is finished.
Luckily a regular full-width 19-ply alpha-beta search suffices to get to this truth. And it can be done with a nullwindow and without qsearch (or a ply-limited one).
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ernest
Posts: 2041
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:30 pm

Re: Rybka 4.1 is still unbeatable in some positions

Post by ernest »

Jouni wrote:In Albillo 91 Rybka is only top engine to find mate in 11 in my PC.
Well, Houdini also finds that mate in 11.
But so what? Finding the shortest mate has never been the utmost property of the top engines...

New game
3qk3/8/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQ - 0 1
Analysis by Houdini 3 w32 Nlm:
1.e4 Qh4 2.d4 Qxe4+ 3.Qe2 Qxe2+ 4.Bxe2 Kd7 5.Nc3 Ke6 6.Nf3 Kd7 7.Ne5+ Ke6 8.Bc4+ Kf5 9.b4 Kf6 10.a4 Ke7 11.Bg5+ Ke8 12.a5 Kf8 13.a6 Ke8 14.Bb5+ Kf8 15.a7
+- (40.07) Depth: 6/30 00:00:00 0kN
1.e4 Qh4 2.d4 Qxe4+ 3.Qe2 Qxe2+ 4.Bxe2 Kd7 5.Nc3 Ke6 6.Nf3 Kd7 7.Ne5+ Ke6 8.Bc4+ Kf5 9.b4 Kf6 10.a4 Ke7 11.Bg5+ Ke8 12.a5 Kf8 13.a6 Ke8 14.Bb5+ Kf8 15.a7
+- (40.07) Depth: 7/30 00:00:00 0kN
1.e4 Qh4 2.d4 Qxe4+ 3.Qe2 Qxe2+ 4.Bxe2 Kd7 5.Nc3 Ke6 6.Nf3 Kd7 7.Ne5+ Ke6 8.Bc4+ Kf5 9.b4 Kf6 10.a4 Ke7 11.Bg5+ Ke8 12.a5 Kf8 13.a6 Ke8 14.Bb5+ Kf8 15.a7
+- (40.07) Depth: 8/30 00:00:00 0kN
1.e4 Qh4 2.d4 Qxe4+ 3.Qe2 Qxe2+ 4.Bxe2 Kd7 5.Nc3 Ke6 6.Nf3 Kd7 7.Ne5+ Ke6 8.Bc4+ Kf5 9.b4 Kf6 10.a4 Ke7 11.Bg5+ Ke8 12.a5 Kf8 13.a6 Ke8 14.Bb5+ Kf8 15.a7
+- (40.07) Depth: 9/30 00:00:00 0kN
1.e4 Qh4 2.d4 Qxe4+ 3.Qe2 Qxe2+ 4.Bxe2 Kd7 5.Nc3 Ke6 6.Nf3 Kd7 7.Ne5+ Ke6 8.Bc4+ Kf5 9.b4 Kf6 10.a4 Ke7 11.Bg5+ Ke8 12.a5 Kf8 13.a6 Ke8 14.Bb5+ Kf8 15.a7
+- (40.07) Depth: 10/30 00:00:00 0kN
1.e4 Qh4 2.d4 Qxe4+ 3.Qe2 Qxe2+ 4.Bxe2 Kd7 5.Nc3 Ke6 6.Nf3 Kd7 7.Ne5+ Ke6 8.Bc4+ Kf5 9.b4 Kf6 10.a4 Ke7 11.Bg5+ Ke8 12.a5 Kf8 13.a6 Ke8 14.Bb5+ Kf8 15.a7
+- (40.07) Depth: 11/30 00:00:00 0kN
1.e4 Qh4 2.d4 Qxe4+ 3.Qe2 Qxe2+ 4.Bxe2 Kd7 5.Nc3 Ke6 6.Nf3 Kd7 7.Ne5+ Ke6 8.Bc4+ Kf5 9.b4 Kf6 10.a4 Ke7 11.Bg5+ Ke8 12.a5 Kf8 13.a6 Ke8 14.Bb5+ Kf8 15.a7
+- (40.07) Depth: 12/30 00:00:00 0kN
1.e4 Qh4 2.d4 Qxe4+ 3.Qe2 Qxe2+ 4.Bxe2 Kd7 5.Nc3 Ke6 6.Nf3 Kd7 7.Ne5+ Ke6 8.Bc4+ Kf5 9.b4 Kf6 10.a4 Ke7 11.Bg5+ Ke8 12.a5 Kf8 13.a6 Ke8 14.Bb5+ Kf8 15.a7
+- (40.07) Depth: 13/30 00:00:00 1kN
1.e4 Qh4 2.d4 Qxe4+ 3.Qe2 Qxe2+ 4.Bxe2 Kd7 5.Nc3 Ke6 6.Nf3 Kd7 7.Ne5+ Ke6 8.Bc4+ Kf5 9.b4 Kf6 10.a4 Ke7 11.Bg5+ Ke8 12.a5 Kf8 13.a6 Ke8 14.Bb5+ Kf8 15.a7
+- (40.07) Depth: 14/30 00:00:00 1kN
1.e4 Qh4 2.d4 Qxe4+ 3.Qe2 Qxe2+ 4.Bxe2 Kd7 5.Nc3 Ke6 6.Nf3 Kd7 7.Ne5+ Ke6 8.Bc4+ Kf5 9.b4 Kf6 10.a4 Ke7 11.Bg5+ Ke8 12.a5 Kf8 13.a6 Ke8 14.Bb5+ Kf8 15.a7
+- (40.07) Depth: 15/30 00:00:00 1kN
1.e4 Kd7 2.d4 Kc6 3.Nc3 Kb7 4.Qh5 Qf6 5.Qb5+ Ka7 6.d5 Qf7 7.Be3+ Ka8 8.Qa6+ Kb8 9.Qd6+ Qc7 10.Qxc7+ Kxc7 11.h4 Kd7 12.h5 Ke8 13.Kd2 Kf7 14.h6 Kf6 15.h7 Kf7 16.h8Q
+- (46.91) Depth: 16/45 00:00:05 20629kN
1.e4 Kd7 2.d4 Kc6 3.Nc3 Kb7 4.Qh5 Qf6 5.Qb5+ Ka7 6.d5 Qf7 7.Be3+ Ka8 8.Qa6+ Kb8 9.Qd6+ Qc7 10.Qxc7+ Kxc7 11.h4 Kd7 12.h5 Ke8 13.Kd2 Kf7 14.h6 Kf6 15.h7 Kf7 16.h8Q
+- (46.91) Depth: 17/45 00:00:06 22764kN
1.e4 Kd7 2.d4 Kc6 3.Nc3 Kb7 4.Qh5 Qf6 5.Qb5+ Ka7 6.d5 Qf7 7.Be3+ Ka8 8.Qa6+ Kb8 9.Qd6+ Qc7 10.Qxc7+ Kxc7 11.h4 Kd7 12.h5 Ke8 13.Kd2 Kf7 14.h6 Kf6 15.h7 Kf7 16.h8Q
+- (46.91) Depth: 18/45 00:00:07 26645kN
1.e4 Kd7 2.d4 Kc6 3.Nc3 Kb7 4.Qh5 Qf6 5.Qb5+ Qb6 6.Qd5+ Qc6 7.Ba6+ Kc7 8.Qa5+ Kd7 9.Nf3 Ke8 10.Qh5+ Kd8 11.Qg5+ Kc7 12.Qa5+ Kd7 13.Ne5+ Ke8 14.Nxc6 Kf7 15.Ne5+ Kf8 16.Qd8+ Kg7 17.Qe7+ Kh8 18.Qf8+ Kh7
+- (48.84) Depth: 19/49 00:00:10 37772kN
1.e4 Kd7 2.d4 Kc8 3.Qh5 Qf6 4.Nc3 Kb7 5.Qb5+ Qb6 6.Qd5+ Qc6 7.Ba6+ Kc7 8.Qa5+ Kd7 9.Nf3 Qd6 10.Qf5+ Ke8 11.Qc8+ Ke7 12.Bg5+ Qf6 13.Qc5+ Ke8 14.Bb5+ Kf7 15.Bc4+ Qe6 16.Bxe6+ Kg6 17.Bc4 Kg7 18.Qa7+ Kg6
+- (#19) Depth: 20/49 00:00:54 200mN
1.e4 Qd4 2.Nc3 Kf7 3.Qg4 Qc5 4.Qd7+ Qe7 5.Bc4+ Kf8 6.Qf5+ Ke8 7.d4 Kd8 8.Qd5+ Kc8 9.Bg5 Qc7 10.Qa8+ Qb8 11.Be6+ Kc7 12.Nd5+ Kd6 13.Qa6+ Qb6 14.Qxb6#
+- (#14) Depth: 21/49 00:02:17 535mN
1.e4 Qd4 2.Nc3 Kf7 3.Qg4 Qc5 4.Qd7+ Qe7 5.Bc4+ Kf8 6.Qf5+ Ke8 7.d4 Kd8 8.Bg5 Qxg5 9.Qxg5+ Kd7 10.Nb5 Kc8 11.Qc5+ Kb7 12.Qc7+ Ka6 13.Na3#
+- (#13) Depth: 22/49 00:02:21 553mN
1.e4 Qd4 2.Nc3 Kf7 3.Qg4 Qc5 4.Qd7+ Qe7 5.Bc4+ Kf8 6.Qf5+ Ke8 7.d4 Kd8 8.Bg5 Qxg5 9.Qxg5+ Kd7 10.Nd5 Kc8 11.Ba6+ Kb8 12.Qg7 Ka8
+- (#13) Depth: 23/49 00:02:28 582mN
1.e4 Qd4 2.Nc3 Kf7 3.Qg4 Kf8 4.Qc8+ Ke7 5.Nf3 Qg7 6.Qc7+ Kf8 7.Qd8+ Kf7 8.Bc4+ Kg6 9.d4 Kh7 10.Qh4+ Kg6 11.Ne5+ Qxe5 12.Qh6#
+- (#12) Depth: 24/49 00:03:17 793mN
1.e4 Qd4 2.Nc3 Qg7 3.d4 Qg6 4.Qf3 Qf7 5.Bb5+ Ke7 6.Bg5+ Kf8 7.Bh6+ Kg8 8.Bc4 Kh7 9.Bxf7 Kxh6 10.Qf6+ Kh7 11.Qg6+ Kh8 12.Qh6#
+- (#12) Depth: 25/49 00:04:20 1084mN
1.e4 Qd4 2.Nc3 Qg7 3.d4 Qg6 4.Qf3 Qf7 5.Bb5+ Ke7 6.Bg5+ Kf8 7.Bh6+ Kg8 8.Bc4 Kh7 9.Bxf7 Kxh6 10.Qf6+ Kh7 11.Qg6+ Kh8 12.Qh6#
+- (#12) Depth: 26/49 00:04:59 1263mN
1.e4 Qd4 2.Nc3 Qg7 3.d4 Qg6 4.Qf3 Qf7 5.Bb5+ Ke7 6.Bg5+ Kf8 7.Bh6+ Kg8 8.Bc4 Kh7 9.Bxf7 Kxh6 10.Qf6+ Kh7 11.Qg6+ Kh8 12.Qh6#
+- (#12) Depth: 27/49 00:06:29 1667mN
1.e4 Qd4 2.Nc3 Qg7 3.d4 Qg6 4.Qf3 Qf7 5.Bb5+ Ke7 6.Bg5+ Kf8 7.Bh6+ Kg8 8.Bc4 Kh7 9.Bxf7 Kxh6 10.Qf6+ Kh7 11.Qg6+ Kh8 12.Qh6#
+- (#12) Depth: 28/49 00:08:02 2081mN
1.e4 Qd4 2.Nc3 Qg7 3.d4 Qg6 4.Qf3 Qf7 5.Bb5+ Ke7 6.Bg5+ Kf8 7.Bh6+ Kg8 8.Bc4 Kh7 9.Qxf7+ Kxh6 10.Qf6+ Kh7 11.Qg5 Kh8 12.Qh6#
+- (#12) Depth: 29/49 00:38:00 10084mN
1.e4 Qd4 2.Nc3 Qg7 3.d4 Qg6 4.Qf3 Qf7 5.Qg3 Qe6 6.Qg7 Kd8 7.Bb5 Qe8 8.Bxe8 Kxe8 9.h4 Kd8 10.Nd5 Kc8
+- (#11) Depth: 30/49 03:43:45 61741mN
1.e4 Qd4 2.Nc3 Qg7 3.d4 Qg6 4.Qf3 Qf7 5.Qg3 Qe6 6.Qg7 Kd8 7.Bb5 Qe7 8.Bg5 Kc7 9.Bxe7 Kb7 10.Bd6+ Kb6 11.Qc7#
+- (#11) Depth: 31/49 05:49:23 98700mN
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Cubeman
Posts: 644
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:11 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Rybka 4.1 is still unbeatable in some positions

Post by Cubeman »

Gosh, from the title of the tread I thought I was going to see some special ability of Rybka. All I see is that Rybka needs this huge material advantage to know how to win a game.
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IGarcia
Posts: 543
Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:27 pm

Re: Rybka 4.1 is still unbeatable in some positions

Post by IGarcia »

Cubeman wrote:Gosh, from the title of the tread I thought I was going to see some special ability of Rybka. All I see is that Rybka needs this huge material advantage to know how to win a game.


:D funny!
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Vinvin
Posts: 5228
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:40 am
Full name: Vincent Lejeune

Re: Rybka 4.1 is still unbeatable in some positions

Post by Vinvin »

Rybka is sometime bogus in mate announcement ...
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S.Taylor
Posts: 8514
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 3:25 am
Location: Jerusalem Israel

Re: Rybka 4.1 is still unbeatable in some positions

Post by S.Taylor »

Jouni wrote:In Albillo 91 Rybka is only top engine to find mate in 11 in my PC. And not only one but 4 different!

[D]3qk3/8/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQ - 0 1

Analysis by Rybka 4.1:

1. +- (#11): 1.e4 Kf8 2.Qf3+ Kg7 3.Qg4+ Kf7 4.Bc4+ Ke8 5.Bb5+ Kf7 6.Qh5+ Ke6 7.Nc3 Qf6 8.Nd5 Qf7 9.Bd7+ Qxd7 10.Qg6+ Ke5 11.Nf3#
2. +- (#11): 1.e3 Qg5 2.Qf3 Ke7 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.Nd5+ Ke6 5.Qf6+ Kd7 6.Qg7+ Kc6 7.e4 Qd8 8.Nf3 Qd7 9.Nd4+ Kd6 10.Qf6+ Kc5 11.b4#
3. +- (#11): 1.Nc3 Kf8 2.e4 Qc8 3.Qh5 Qe6 4.Nf3 Qf7 5.Qh3 Kg7 6.Ne5 Qf4 7.d4 Qf6 8.Bc4 Kf8 9.Bh6+ Qg7 10.Bxg7+ Ke7 11.Qd7#
4. +- (#11): 1.d4 Qd5 2.Nc3 Qe6 3.e4 Kf8 4.Qh5 Kg7 5.Qc5 Kg6 6.Qf8 Kh7 7.Nh3 Qg6 8.Ng5+ Qxg5 9.Bxg5 Kg6 10.Qg8+ Kh5 11.Be2#

Is it possible to run perft(21) or similar to get the truth in this one??
What? Rybka as black mates black in 11 and is unstopable?
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S.Taylor
Posts: 8514
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 3:25 am
Location: Jerusalem Israel

Re: Rybka 4.1 is still unbeatable in some positions

Post by S.Taylor »

S.Taylor wrote:
Jouni wrote:In Albillo 91 Rybka is only top engine to find mate in 11 in my PC. And not only one but 4 different!

[D]3qk3/8/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQ - 0 1

Analysis by Rybka 4.1:

1. +- (#11): 1.e4 Kf8 2.Qf3+ Kg7 3.Qg4+ Kf7 4.Bc4+ Ke8 5.Bb5+ Kf7 6.Qh5+ Ke6 7.Nc3 Qf6 8.Nd5 Qf7 9.Bd7+ Qxd7 10.Qg6+ Ke5 11.Nf3#
2. +- (#11): 1.e3 Qg5 2.Qf3 Ke7 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.Nd5+ Ke6 5.Qf6+ Kd7 6.Qg7+ Kc6 7.e4 Qd8 8.Nf3 Qd7 9.Nd4+ Kd6 10.Qf6+ Kc5 11.b4#
3. +- (#11): 1.Nc3 Kf8 2.e4 Qc8 3.Qh5 Qe6 4.Nf3 Qf7 5.Qh3 Kg7 6.Ne5 Qf4 7.d4 Qf6 8.Bc4 Kf8 9.Bh6+ Qg7 10.Bxg7+ Ke7 11.Qd7#
4. +- (#11): 1.d4 Qd5 2.Nc3 Qe6 3.e4 Kf8 4.Qh5 Kg7 5.Qc5 Kg6 6.Qf8 Kh7 7.Nh3 Qg6 8.Ng5+ Qxg5 9.Bxg5 Kg6 10.Qg8+ Kh5 11.Be2#

Is it possible to run perft(21) or similar to get the truth in this one??
What? Rybka as black mates black in 11 and is unstopable?
oh sorry! you mean that Rybka 4.1 is unbeatable in this position, as White, as it is already forced mate before move 1! Nice!
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