Houdini 3 with Scorpio Bitbases Question

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IWB
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Re: Any conflict

Post by IWB »

Modern Times wrote:For engine matches, I found that with Scorpio bases there was a delay of several seconds while they loaded into memory, and the GUI's engine clock was ticking while that was happening. So not a good idea for blitz matches. (Perhaps this is GUI dependent). So I don't use them.
It has to be GUI dependent! The Classic GUI doesn't start the game until the engine is loaded (isread -> readyok). For the Classic it wouldn't matter. But anyhow, for the 4pc IPON conditions it is not worth the trouble.

Bye
Ingo
Modern Times
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Re: Any conflict

Post by Modern Times »

IWB wrote: But anyhow, for the 4pc IPON conditions it is not worth the trouble.

Bye
Ingo
Agreed.
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Aser Huerga
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Re: Any conflict

Post by Aser Huerga »

Houdini wrote:
Aser Huerga wrote:So Robert, which setting do you like the most for analysis?
Thanks.
All 3 systems work very well, I don't have any preference.
Of course only Nalimov has 6-man bases, but if you're fine with the 5-man tables they're all very good.

Robert
Robert, one more question, do you think Tactical mode is a right setting for endgames? If not, how about a Endgame mode in the near future?

Thanks.
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Sylwy
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Re:Ha-ha-ha-ha Houdini , Scorpio, Nalimov, Rybka...........!

Post by Sylwy »

carldaman wrote: 1.-Also, what about the Egbb cache size? Should the default 32MB be used? 2.-What about using a 256MB cache, as that could hold the entire C:\Egbb folder? This isn't clear, even after reading the manual.
Hello Carl !

1.- A CPU cache is a cache used by the central processing unit of a computer to reduce the average time to access memory. The cache is a smaller, faster memory which stores copies of the data from the most frequently used main memory locations. As long as most memory accesses are cached memory locations, the average latency of memory accesses will be closer to the cache latency than to the latency of main memory.
In addition to cache memory, one can think of RAM itself as a cache of memory for hard disk storage since all of RAM's contents come from the hard disk initially when you turn your computer on and load the operating system (you are loading it into RAM) and later as you start new applications and access new data. RAM can also contain a special area called a disk cache that contains the data most recently read in from the hard disk.

A big cache means a big speed of accessing the memory !

I use only 8-16 MB in Fritz and Shredder GUI (these GUIs are my loves for eng vs. eng matches) . In HIARCS Chess Explorer (my no.1 in personal training) 32 MB cache is OK for Nalimov TBs.

2.-My God ! Carl , Scorpio egbbs are loaded into the RAM memory !


How works a tandem Nalimov TBs+Scorpio egbbs:
================================

On Fritz GUI:

If you load an engine using Nalimov+bitbases (Shredder, Chiron-a super engine,Patzer,Yace, Daydreamer...........) the bitbases (Scorpio , for example-for Chiron , Daydreamer) are loaded at the beginning of the match ( a ~ 30' process , you can load only 3&4 men for a faster use) and are used into search. When the engine returned a big score (+10 for example) then it switches to Nalimov Tbs to see a concrete mate ( in x moves). If not , it works again with the bitbases .

The bitbases remains (under Fritz, Shredder , HCE GUIs) loaded into the RAM memory until the match is canceled.

Houdini is a speed optimized chess engine. The part of code regarding the use in tandem of Scorpio+ Nalimov or Scorpio+Gaviota is missing.

The theory about a big amount of knowledges are stories for babies. Mainly the speed means a big depth and the vision of more tactical possibilities. A low amount of knowledges (practically only the chess rules) and a savage pruning give us a relatively strong engine !
Some years ago I did an experiment : a long match between Deep Ruybka 4 and Gandalf 4.32 UCI. Well, Rybka won the match , but Gandalf 4.32 (a solid engine) was winning some games in a spectacular mode. This is the tribute to a savage pruning.
The savage pruning is well observed ( no obfuscations ) in EXChess 6.50b a very interesting work of Daniel Homan !
Did you hear about the Berliner experiment ?

http://www.rebel.nl/ches2010.htm

Houdini (like Rybka) is only a monster in speed. Stop its increase in speed and any ELO gain will be observable. The rest are stories for customers !

Regards,
SilvianR :wink:
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Sylwy
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Re:Ha-ha-ha-ha Houdini , Scorpio, Nalimov, Rybka...........!

Post by Sylwy »

Computer chess development of the last years:

1.- Make the program as fast as possible.- AXIOME 1 !!!!!!
2. -Even remove existing chess knowledge to ensure a fast chess program. AXIOME 2 !!!!!
3. -Add lots of tactics to out-search the opponent.
4.-Add only the very basic chess knowledge (Berliner concept) AXIOME 3 !!!!!
5. -Make the program aggressive to ensure tactics in games.


Hello Houdini Ltd. ! Chess knowledges ??? :lol:

PS: HIARCS & Shredder (well , maybe Junior for imbalanced positions) rest the best chess engines for the human training. The rest - only kid excentric toys !


Regards,
SilvianR :wink:
Waschbaer
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Re:Ha-ha-ha-ha Houdini , Scorpio, Nalimov, Rybka...........!

Post by Waschbaer »

The goal of chess is mating the opponent.
If you (men) are slow in digging deep into the position, you need helpers like "chess knowlegde", rules like "the rook belongs behind the past pawns" etc etc

If you (computer) are very fast in searching, there is less need for that helpers; in theory, if you would be able to search until the mate you would need nothing more as the chess rules as knowledge.

Like Vas said, it's all in the search!

Chess is a tactical game!
Chess knowledge has no worth by itself.

So why should a programmer make the chess engine less strong trying to use methods good for human brains?
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Sylwy
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Re:Ha-ha-ha-ha Houdini , Scorpio, Nalimov, Rybka...........!

Post by Sylwy »

Waschbaer wrote:
So why should a programmer make the chess engine less strong trying to use methods good for human brains?

Hi !

Rhetorical question !

Well , the goal of computer chess is something contemplative : how engines act ones against ones; or

maybe something active: the human training & analyze ?????

A mate in 32 :lol: has any relevance for the human mind !

A high speed engine is like a superb model. Everybody (near :lol: ) says ahhhhhhh , and............................that's all !


Isn't it ?

Image


SilvianR :wink:
Waschbaer
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Re:Ha-ha-ha-ha Houdini , Scorpio, Nalimov, Rybka...........!

Post by Waschbaer »

Its silly to tell a human a rook belongs behind the past pawn, if that rule doesn't mach to the given position.

IF in a given position moving the rook behind the pawn is a good move, it will be found by an engine without knowledge, if that engine searches deep enough.

So searching produces "real knowledge", based on facts, not on dogmatic rules.

The goal (finding good moves, and good moves are the winning one) is the same, but the method choosen to get "knowledge" about good moves should take care for the given hardware (complex, pattern recognition contra error free calculation, speed).

A good programmer knows about that, Botwiniks approach was wrong.
MM
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Re:Ha-ha-ha-ha Houdini , Scorpio, Nalimov, Rybka...........!

Post by MM »

Waschbaer wrote:Its silly to tell a human a rook belongs behind the past pawn, if that rule doesn't mach to the given position.

IF in a given position moving the rook behind the pawn is a good move, it will be found by an engine without knowledge, if that engine searches deep enough.

So searching produces "real knowledge", based on facts, not on dogmatic rules.

The goal (finding good moves, and good moves are the winning one) is the same, but the method choosen to get "knowledge" about good moves should take care for the given hardware (complex, pattern recognition contra error free calculation, speed).

A good programmer knows about that, Botwiniks approach was wrong.
I think Botvinnik idea was right but chess programmers are all against him because it is very hard for them to add chess knowledge to engines. It is much easier to make an engine faster with some programming tuning and improve the search.

I think that, making an example, if Kasparov was a computer scientist and a chess programmer, he would be able to build an almost perfect engine, with all the chess knowledge and all the modern techincs of programming.

How many chess programmers have a decent chess knowledge as players?



Best Regards
Last edited by MM on Thu Oct 18, 2012 12:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
MM
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Sylwy
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Re:Ha-ha-ha-ha Houdini , Scorpio, Nalimov, Rybka...........!

Post by Sylwy »

Waschbaer wrote: The goal (finding good moves, and good moves are the winning one) is the same, but the method choosen to get "knowledge" about good moves should take care for the given hardware (complex, pattern recognition contra error free calculation, speed).

A good programmer knows about that, Botwiniks approach was wrong.

Who cares about a good move in a position (21.Kf4 !!!!, for example) if a human has a lot of problems even with the 6-th-7-th move in a position - (and I talk here about a master) !

+ the savage pruning losts - sometimes - very promissing moves !

Don't be so sure Mr. Botvinnik was in fault ! Let a bit IT to progress !

SilvianR :wink: