A possible case of cheating

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mar
Posts: 2389
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Location: Czech Republic
Full name: Martin Sedlak

Re: A possible case of cheating

Post by mar » Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:58 am

MM wrote:As you can see a lot of engine consider very much Kf8.

The only 2 engines that i have tried that don't consider Kf8 in the top three moves are probably the most human style engines...: Vitruvius 1.11 and Komodo 5....

Best Regards
Ok - my fault. I admit I didn't use multipv mode...

MM
Posts: 766
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:25 am

Re: A possible case of cheating

Post by MM » Sun Oct 07, 2012 10:32 am

mar wrote:
MM wrote:As you can see a lot of engine consider very much Kf8.

The only 2 engines that i have tried that don't consider Kf8 in the top three moves are probably the most human style engines...: Vitruvius 1.11 and Komodo 5....

Best Regards
Ok - my fault. I admit I didn't use multipv mode...
No problem Martin :)

My only will was to show that Kf8 is a strange move, liked by computers and (i think) very hardly playable by a human (1700 elo).

Best Regards
MM

skoony
Posts: 165
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 1:36 am
Location: saint paul,minnesota

Re: A possible case of cheating

Post by skoony » Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:13 am

i dont think there is any cheating here.
the other player simply choked first.
Kg8 is what you call a simple waiting move.
any and every book on tactics and stradigy teachs this.
he might of had the bishop move in mind also,but
may have been feeling his opponent out.
as 57 year old 1500 player i can tell you those tractics
are not above a 1700 player.
regards
mike

p.s.,just because fritz likes it does'nt mean you should'nt too.
by the time i get there,i'll be there.

krusher
Posts: 37
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:40 pm

Re: A possible case of cheating

Post by krusher » Sun Oct 07, 2012 1:38 pm

skoony wrote:i dont think there is any cheating here.
the other player simply choked first.
Kg8 is what you call a simple waiting move.
any and every book on tactics and stradigy teachs this.
he might of had the bishop move in mind also,but
may have been feeling his opponent out.
as 57 year old 1500 player i can tell you those tractics
are not above a 1700 player.
regards
mike

p.s.,just because fritz likes it does'nt mean you should'nt too.
Then you are in the unique position of needing to prove your hypothesis. Perhaps we can start with you pulling games from the MegaDatabse of OTB games where Fritz agrees with all the moves of a low rated player?

You stated "just because fritz likes it does'nt mean you should'nt too." meaning

1. Fritz is a 1700 rated engine and this is why it agrees with the majority of moves by a low rated player over two games.
2. Fritz is a strong engine and the player in question must be strong.
3. The player consulted Fritz during these games.

Sven
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Full name: Sven Schüle
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Re: A possible case of cheating

Post by Sven » Sun Oct 07, 2012 10:47 pm

krusher wrote:
skoony wrote:i dont think there is any cheating here.
the other player simply choked first.
Kg8 is what you call a simple waiting move.
any and every book on tactics and stradigy teachs this.
he might of had the bishop move in mind also,but
may have been feeling his opponent out.
as 57 year old 1500 player i can tell you those tractics
are not above a 1700 player.
regards
mike

p.s.,just because fritz likes it does'nt mean you should'nt too.
Then you are in the unique position of needing to prove your hypothesis. Perhaps we can start with you pulling games from the MegaDatabse of OTB games where Fritz agrees with all the moves of a low rated player?

You stated "just because fritz likes it does'nt mean you should'nt too." meaning

1. Fritz is a 1700 rated engine and this is why it agrees with the majority of moves by a low rated player over two games.
2. Fritz is a strong engine and the player in question must be strong.
3. The player consulted Fritz during these games.
Hi John,

a) the second game is not under suspicion as far as I understood, so you seem to mix up something:
Olivier Deville wrote:Here is another game he played in the same tournament. He was having white pieces and he obviously played all the moves by himself in this game.
b) Several people already mentioned that the majority of black moves in the first game was not difficult to find for a human. Don't forget, white blundered and black had a tactical shot (Rxc1+) that *can* be seen even by some weaker players (mostly capture moves, simple king attack with Q+B). And Kg8 was found to be an obvious preparation of the logical Bg5.

c) In general it is the accuser who has to prove guilt, not the defender who has to prove innocence. And to prove cheating requires more than pointing out that strong engines find mostly simple moves in simple positions.

Sven

skoony
Posts: 165
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 1:36 am
Location: saint paul,minnesota

Re: A possible case of cheating

Post by skoony » Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:36 am

krusher wrote:
skoony wrote:i dont think there is any cheating here.
the other player simply choked first.
Kg8 is what you call a simple waiting move.
any and every book on tactics and stradigy teachs this.
he might of had the bishop move in mind also,but
may have been feeling his opponent out.
as 57 year old 1500 player i can tell you those tractics
are not above a 1700 player.
regards
mike

p.s.,just because fritz likes it does'nt mean you should'nt too.
Then you are in the unique position of needing to prove your hypothesis. Perhaps we can start with you pulling games from the MegaDatabse of OTB games where Fritz agrees with all the moves of a low rated player?

You stated "just because fritz likes it does'nt mean you should'nt too." meaning

1. Fritz is a 1700 rated engine and this is why it agrees with the majority of moves by a low rated player over two games.
2. Fritz is a strong engine and the player in question must be strong.
3. The player consulted Fritz during these games.
lets not forget it was stated that this player has fritz.
if he plays against fritz often he could be picking up
on fritzs playing style and openings.
regards
mike
by the time i get there,i'll be there.

krusher
Posts: 37
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:40 pm

Re: A possible case of cheating

Post by krusher » Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:05 pm

I seem to have missed the necessary evidence produced by the "defence", so I hope Mike Schoonover/Sven Schüle will produce the necessary evidence without much ado :-

Then you are in the unique position of needing to prove your hypothesis. Perhaps we can start with you pulling games from the MegaDatabse of OTB games where Fritz agrees with all the moves of a low rated player?

Also if the player allegedly/apparently got stronger by observing Fritz, then why does he draw in the second game in a winning/better position? He is clearly good at tactics so why not employ the same "skills" here?

[Event "Game from non-PGN file"]
[Site "TalkChess"]
[Date "2012.10.08"]
[Round "-"]
[White "?"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]

1. d4 d5 2. Nf3 c6 3. g3 Nd7 4. Bg2 Ngf6 5. O-O g6 6. Bd2 Bg7 7. c3 h5 8.
h4 Nf8 9. Bg5 N6h7 10. Nbd2 Nxg5 11. Nxg5 f6 12. Ngf3 Nh7 13. e4 g5 14.
exd5 cxd5 15. Qa4+ Bd7 16. Qb3 Bc6 17. Qc2 Kf7 18. Rfe1 Bd7 19. hxg5 fxg5 20. Ne5+ Bxe5 21. Rxe5 e6 22. Nf3 h4 23. Qd2 hxg3 24. fxg3
1/2-1/2

MM
Posts: 766
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:25 am

Re: A possible case of cheating

Post by MM » Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:07 pm

Sven Schüle wrote:
krusher wrote:
skoony wrote:i dont think there is any cheating here.
the other player simply choked first.
Kg8 is what you call a simple waiting move.
any and every book on tactics and stradigy teachs this.
he might of had the bishop move in mind also,but
may have been feeling his opponent out.
as 57 year old 1500 player i can tell you those tractics
are not above a 1700 player.
regards
mike

p.s.,just because fritz likes it does'nt mean you should'nt too.
Then you are in the unique position of needing to prove your hypothesis. Perhaps we can start with you pulling games from the MegaDatabse of OTB games where Fritz agrees with all the moves of a low rated player?

You stated "just because fritz likes it does'nt mean you should'nt too." meaning

1. Fritz is a 1700 rated engine and this is why it agrees with the majority of moves by a low rated player over two games.
2. Fritz is a strong engine and the player in question must be strong.
3. The player consulted Fritz during these games.
Hi John,

a) the second game is not under suspicion as far as I understood, so you seem to mix up something:
Olivier Deville wrote:Here is another game he played in the same tournament. He was having white pieces and he obviously played all the moves by himself in this game.
b) Several people already mentioned that the majority of black moves in the first game was not difficult to find for a human. Don't forget, white blundered and black had a tactical shot (Rxc1+) that *can* be seen even by some weaker players (mostly capture moves, simple king attack with Q+B). And Kg8 was found to be an obvious preparation of the logical Bg5.

c) In general it is the accuser who has to prove guilt, not the defender who has to prove innocence. And to prove cheating requires more than pointing out that strong engines find mostly simple moves in simple positions.

Sven

I simply think that when a 1700 rated player plays 27 moves (i don't consider book moves) ALL according to most of the best engines, and so many times with a wide range of different moves available, including ''computer moves'' like ...Kf8 or another move not hard to see but hard to CHOOSE (Qa6), then there are only 2 possibilities:

1. The 1700 player plays like an (strong) engine.
2. The 1700 player is an engine.

Best Regards
MM

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michiguel
Posts: 6401
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Location: Chicago, Illinois, USA
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Re: A possible case of cheating

Post by michiguel » Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:20 pm

MM wrote:
Sven Schüle wrote:
krusher wrote:
skoony wrote:i dont think there is any cheating here.
the other player simply choked first.
Kg8 is what you call a simple waiting move.
any and every book on tactics and stradigy teachs this.
he might of had the bishop move in mind also,but
may have been feeling his opponent out.
as 57 year old 1500 player i can tell you those tractics
are not above a 1700 player.
regards
mike

p.s.,just because fritz likes it does'nt mean you should'nt too.
Then you are in the unique position of needing to prove your hypothesis. Perhaps we can start with you pulling games from the MegaDatabse of OTB games where Fritz agrees with all the moves of a low rated player?

You stated "just because fritz likes it does'nt mean you should'nt too." meaning

1. Fritz is a 1700 rated engine and this is why it agrees with the majority of moves by a low rated player over two games.
2. Fritz is a strong engine and the player in question must be strong.
3. The player consulted Fritz during these games.
Hi John,

a) the second game is not under suspicion as far as I understood, so you seem to mix up something:
Olivier Deville wrote:Here is another game he played in the same tournament. He was having white pieces and he obviously played all the moves by himself in this game.
b) Several people already mentioned that the majority of black moves in the first game was not difficult to find for a human. Don't forget, white blundered and black had a tactical shot (Rxc1+) that *can* be seen even by some weaker players (mostly capture moves, simple king attack with Q+B). And Kg8 was found to be an obvious preparation of the logical Bg5.

c) In general it is the accuser who has to prove guilt, not the defender who has to prove innocence. And to prove cheating requires more than pointing out that strong engines find mostly simple moves in simple positions.

Sven

I simply think that when a 1700 rated player plays 27 moves (i don't consider book moves) ALL according to most of the best engines, and so many times with a wide range of different moves available, including ''computer moves'' like ...Kf8 or another move not hard to see but hard to CHOOSE (Qa6), then there are only 2 possibilities:

1. The 1700 player plays like an (strong) engine.
2. The 1700 player is an engine.

Best Regards
I do not feel Kf8 is a computer move. It is quite natural if you see that all pieces are in optimal position, you control the board, and then you bring the king to the center.

Miguel

MM
Posts: 766
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:25 am

Re: A possible case of cheating

Post by MM » Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:45 pm

michiguel wrote: I do not feel Kf8 is a computer move. It is quite natural if you see that all pieces are in optimal position, you control the board, and then you bring the king to the center.

Miguel


R = King (King = Re in Italian)




[D]2r3k1/1p1bbppp/1q2p3/3pPn2/1p1P1B2/1PrB1N2/P2Q1PPP/R2R2K1 b - - 0 1

Analysis by Fritz 13: depth 17

1. -/+ (-0.85): 18...Rf8 19.Ag5 Axg5 20.Dxg5 h6 21.Df4 Ce7 22.Ah7 Ab5 23.Te1 Da6 24.h3 Ae2 25.Ch4 Ad3 26.Axd3 Dxd3 27.Tad1 Dc2
2. -/+ (-0.83): 18...Ab5 19.Axb5 Dxb5 20.Tac1 Db6 21.De2 h5 22.h3 Txc1 23.Axc1 h4 24.Ab2 Tc6 25.Ac1 Da7 26.Af4 Tc8 27.Ac1
3. -/+ (-0.71): 18...Rh8 19.Axf5 exf5 20.Tdc1 Da6 21.Dd1 Rg8 22.Ad2 Txc1 23.Txc1 Dxa2 24.Ta1 Db2 25.Ta7
4. =/+ (-0.68): 18...h6 19.g4 Ab5 20.Axb5 Dxb5 21.gxf5 Txf3 22.fxe6 fxe6 23.Ae3 De8 24.Tac1 Dg6+ 25.Rh1 Tc3 26.Tg1 De4 27.Tg2 Ag5 28.Axg5 hxg5 29.Te1 Tfd3 30.Txe4 Txd2
5. =/+ (-0.67): 18...Ae8 19.De2 h6 20.g4 Ch4 21.Cxh4 Axh4 22.Ad2 T3c7 23.Ae3 Ae7 24.Tac1 Tc3 25.Rg2 Ac6 26.Tc2 Ad7 27.Tdc1
6. =/+ (-0.55): 18...Da7 19.De2 g6 20.Ad2 T3c7 21.Axf5 exf5 22.Tdc1 Tc2 23.h3 b6 24.Txc2 Txc2 25.Dd3 Txa2 26.Txa2 Dxa2 27.Ag5 Af8 28.Ac1
7. =/+ (-0.55): 18...Af8 19.g4 Ab5 20.Axb5 Dxb5 21.gxf5 Txf3 22.f6 Tfc3 23.Tac1 Da5 24.Db2 Db6 25.Ae3 gxf6 26.exf6 Dd8 27.Ag5 Ad6
8. =/+ (-0.48): 18...Ad8 19.De1 Ta8 20.Axf5 exf5 21.Ad2 Tc2 22.Axb4 Taxa2 23.Txa2 Txa2 24.Td2 Da6 25.h3 Ta1 26.Td1 Txd1 27.Dxd1 f4
9. =/+ (-0.42): 18...g6 19.Ag5 Af8 20.Axf5 exf5 21.Ah6 Ae7 22.Ag5 Tc2 23.Df4 Af8 24.Ah6 Dd8 25.Axf8 Dxf8 26.Tdc1 Ab5 27.Txc2
10. =/+ (-0.31): 18...Ac6 19.De2 g6 20.Ac1 Ad7 21.Ab2 T3c6 22.g4 Ch4 23.Cxh4 Axh4 24.De3 Ta8 25.Rg2 Ae7 26.Tdc1
11. = (-0.30): 18...Te8 19.Tac1 Da5 20.De2 Ta8 21.g4 Ch6 22.Axh6 gxh6 23.Dd2 Rg7 24.Tc2 Txc2 25.Axc2 Dxa2 26.Dd3 Th8
12. = (-0.30): 18...Ch4 19.Cxh4 Axh4 20.De2 Ae7 21.Ad2 T3c7 22.h3 Da7 23.De3 Ae8 24.Tdc1 h6 25.Txc7 Txc7 26.h4 Db6 27.h5 Ag5 28.f4 Ae7
13. = (-0.29): 18...h5 19.Ag5 Af8 20.Df4 Da5 21.Axf5 exf5 22.Ch4 Tc2 23.Cxf5 Txa2 24.Txa2 Dxa2 25.Ce3 Dxb3 26.Df3
14. = (-0.23): 18...Dd8 19.De2 h5 20.Ad2 T3c6 21.Tac1 Ta8 22.Ab1 Db6 23.Axf5 exf5 24.Ag5 Af8 25.Txc6 bxc6 26.Tc1
15. = (-0.21): 18...T3c6 19.Db2 h6 20.Ad2 T6c7 21.Tac1 Txc1 22.Txc1 Txc1+ 23.Axc1 Ab5 24.Axb5 Dxb5 25.Dc2 Db6 26.Dc8+ Af8 27.Ae3 Dc6
16. = (-0.12): 18...Td8 19.Tdc1 Da5 20.g4 Ch4 21.Cxh4 Axh4 22.a3 Txc1+ 23.Txc1 Dxa3 24.Tc7 Dxb3 25.Txb7 Ae7 26.Ag5 f6 27.Af4 Da3 28.exf6 Da1+ 29.Rg2 Axf6 30.Dxb4

Here there are at least 16 moves that give and advantage to black in the range -0.85 / -0.12.

I can't believe a 1700, with a so wide range of possible moves, plays just that, considering that the whole game has been played by the 1700 like a computer (the analysis that i made confirm that).

I think King f8 is a computer move, because a computer (engine) makes calculations and it probably gives to the centrlization of the king a good score but every human hardly would reason in this terms in this position, there's still much to work on the board before centralizing the king.

And consider that we are analyzing post-mortem, he played that move ''before'', not ''after''.

Best Regards
MM

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