A possible case of cheating

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Olivier Deville
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A possible case of cheating

Post by Olivier Deville » Sat Oct 06, 2012 8:17 am

Hi all

Here is a game played yesterday in a Skype tournament for the blind :

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 c5 4. c3 Nc6 5. Nf3 Qb6 6. Be2 cxd4 7. cxd4 Nge7 8. Na3
Nf5 9. Nc2 Be7 10. O-O Bd7 11. b3 a5 12. Rb1 Nb4 13. Nxb4 axb4 14. Ra1 O-O 15.
Bf4 Rfc8 16. Qd2 Rc3 17. Bd3 Rac8 18. Rfd1 Kf8 19. Bxf5 exf5 20. Rdc1 h6 21.
Qd1 Qa6 22. Bd2 Rxc1 23. Bxc1 Bb5 24. Ne1 Be2 25. Qd2 Kg8 26. Nc2 Bg5 27. Ne3
Bd3 28. Qxb4 Qxa2 29. Qxb7 Rxc1+ 30. Rxc1 Bxe3 31. Qc8+ Kh7 32. fxe3 Be4 33.
Kf1 Qxg2+ 34. Ke1 Bd3 35. Rc2 Bxc2 36. Qc3 Qg1+ 37. Kd2 Qd1# 0-1

It seems to me that moves played by black are very similar to the ones generated by Fritz (possibly Fritz 10 or 11) in the same positions. Please could you confirm or infirm the fact?

Time control was 1:45 for each player. Black's FIDE rating is around 1700.

Olivier

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geots
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Re: A possible case of cheating

Post by geots » Sat Oct 06, 2012 1:44 pm

Olivier Deville wrote:Hi all

Here is a game played yesterday in a Skype tournament for the blind :

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 c5 4. c3 Nc6 5. Nf3 Qb6 6. Be2 cxd4 7. cxd4 Nge7 8. Na3
Nf5 9. Nc2 Be7 10. O-O Bd7 11. b3 a5 12. Rb1 Nb4 13. Nxb4 axb4 14. Ra1 O-O 15.
Bf4 Rfc8 16. Qd2 Rc3 17. Bd3 Rac8 18. Rfd1 Kf8 19. Bxf5 exf5 20. Rdc1 h6 21.
Qd1 Qa6 22. Bd2 Rxc1 23. Bxc1 Bb5 24. Ne1 Be2 25. Qd2 Kg8 26. Nc2 Bg5 27. Ne3
Bd3 28. Qxb4 Qxa2 29. Qxb7 Rxc1+ 30. Rxc1 Bxe3 31. Qc8+ Kh7 32. fxe3 Be4 33.
Kf1 Qxg2+ 34. Ke1 Bd3 35. Rc2 Bxc2 36. Qc3 Qg1+ 37. Kd2 Qd1# 0-1

It seems to me that moves played by black are very similar to the ones generated by Fritz (possibly Fritz 10 or 11) in the same positions. Please could you confirm or infirm the fact?

Time control was 1:45 for each player. Black's FIDE rating is around 1700.

Olivier


It would help if you would add the other factor- the rating of his opponent at the time they played..

It looks like to me, for what it may be worth- that with these fast desktops now, unless it is a centaur-driven deal- correspondence chess will go the way of adjourning for the night with grandmasters.


gts

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Re: A possible case of cheating

Post by Olivier Deville » Sat Oct 06, 2012 4:07 pm

Hi George

The opponent is also around 1700.

Olivier

Sven
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Re: A possible case of cheating

Post by Sven » Sat Oct 06, 2012 4:07 pm

Olivier Deville wrote:Hi all

Here is a game played yesterday in a Skype tournament for the blind :

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 c5 4. c3 Nc6 5. Nf3 Qb6 6. Be2 cxd4 7. cxd4 Nge7 8. Na3
Nf5 9. Nc2 Be7 10. O-O Bd7 11. b3 a5 12. Rb1 Nb4 13. Nxb4 axb4 14. Ra1 O-O 15.
Bf4 Rfc8 16. Qd2 Rc3 17. Bd3 Rac8 18. Rfd1 Kf8 19. Bxf5 exf5 20. Rdc1 h6 21.
Qd1 Qa6 22. Bd2 Rxc1 23. Bxc1 Bb5 24. Ne1 Be2 25. Qd2 Kg8 26. Nc2 Bg5 27. Ne3
Bd3 28. Qxb4 Qxa2 29. Qxb7 Rxc1+ 30. Rxc1 Bxe3 31. Qc8+ Kh7 32. fxe3 Be4 33.
Kf1 Qxg2+ 34. Ke1 Bd3 35. Rc2 Bxc2 36. Qc3 Qg1+ 37. Kd2 Qd1# 0-1

It seems to me that moves played by black are very similar to the ones generated by Fritz (possibly Fritz 10 or 11) in the same positions. Please could you confirm or infirm the fact?

Time control was 1:45 for each player. Black's FIDE rating is around 1700.

Olivier
Hi Olivier,

I do not have Fritz available but I replayed the game, and I think that almost all black moves were pretty obvious. White made a couple of "suboptimal" moves causing only minor black advantage but also made one big blunder (28.Qxb4?), the reaction 28...Qxa2 can be seen by a player rated 1700.

I found only two black moves that might look like "computer moves": 21...Qa6 and 25...Kg8. I don't think that is sufficient to say that black played with the help of a computer. The final king attack starting with the exchange sac Rxc1 followed by Bxe3 and Be4 targeting to the undefendable square g2 is not difficult to see for a 1700 player, I do not say it will always be found but it is also not very hard since black has already a strong position and the first two moves are obvious captures.

So I'd say, no really strong suspicion from my side. Fritz as well as other strong engines will presumably play most of these black moves as well in my opinion.

Sven

krusher
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Re: A possible case of cheating

Post by krusher » Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:10 pm

28.... Qxa2 cannot possibly be seen by a 1700 FIDE rated player unless he had engine assistance, as a player of that level cannot normally see the tactics that win. If it was a one of two move tactic then I can agree but you need to see that the resulting attack is good for black.

If black were genuinely human then the rest of his games should be of a high level and he should be FIDE 2200+ not 1700. I would presume OTB he wouldn't have the "resources" available to him when he played this game.

Sven
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Re: A possible case of cheating

Post by Sven » Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:01 pm

krusher wrote:28.... Qxa2 cannot possibly be seen by a 1700 FIDE rated player unless he had engine assistance, as a player of that level cannot normally see the tactics that win. If it was a one of two move tactic then I can agree but you need to see that the resulting attack is good for black.

If black were genuinely human then the rest of his games should be of a high level and he should be FIDE 2200+ not 1700. I would presume OTB he wouldn't have the "resources" available to him when he played this game.
I tend to disagree. As I wrote, this is a simple capture sequence. Some 1500, 1600, 1700 players can see it, some can't. So you can't say that only stronger players are able to see this type of combination.

I could try to argue about the details but my basic statement is you can't know what human players see and what they don't see. We are not talking about a sequence of difficult quiet moves here. The only one is the final move Be4, and I believe it is easy to see for some players. Mostly younger players will have less problems with that type of combination.

Sven

Sven

MM
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Re: A possible case of cheating

Post by MM » Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:26 pm

Sven Schüle wrote:
krusher wrote:28.... Qxa2 cannot possibly be seen by a 1700 FIDE rated player unless he had engine assistance, as a player of that level cannot normally see the tactics that win. If it was a one of two move tactic then I can agree but you need to see that the resulting attack is good for black.

If black were genuinely human then the rest of his games should be of a high level and he should be FIDE 2200+ not 1700. I would presume OTB he wouldn't have the "resources" available to him when he played this game.
I tend to disagree. As I wrote, this is a simple capture sequence. Some 1500, 1600, 1700 players can see it, some can't. So you can't say that only stronger players are able to see this type of combination.

I could try to argue about the details but my basic statement is you can't know what human players see and what they don't see. We are not talking about a sequence of difficult quiet moves here. The only one is the final move Be4, and I believe it is easy to see for some players. Mostly younger players will have less problems with that type of combination.

Sven

Sven
I agree, Queen x a2 is a pretty obvious move. Rook x c1 is a little more difficult to see for a 1700, but not impossible.

But on the other hand i think there is a particular move that hardly can be from a 1700: 25...Kg8. I didn't find any mistake by black, analyzing with Komodo 5.

Best Regards
MM

mar
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Re: A possible case of cheating

Post by mar » Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:45 pm

MM wrote:But on the other hand i think there is a particular move that hardly can be from a 1700: 25...Kg8.
I personally see nothing special about Kg8.
Black bludered with 28...Qxb4 as has been written already.
Qxa2 is obvious - black can't capture it because of Rxc1#
However the tactics behind 28...Qxa2 then later followed by 32...Be4 threatening a checkmate, not sure.
Can a 1700 player see it? (much stronger than me btw :) I don't know I'm very weak OTB.
Perhaps black was just lucky - can happen.

krusher
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Re: A possible case of cheating

Post by krusher » Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:52 pm

Sven Schüle wrote: I tend to disagree. As I wrote, this is a simple capture sequence. Some 1500, 1600, 1700 players can see it, some can't. So you can't say that only stronger players are able to see this type of combination.

I could try to argue about the details but my basic statement is you can't know what human players see and what they don't see. We are not talking about a sequence of difficult quiet moves here. The only one is the final move Be4, and I believe it is easy to see for some players. Mostly younger players will have less problems with that type of combination.

Sven

Sven
We are talking about 1700 FIDE. If you think the tactics are that easy for a 1700 then play the game with a weak engine (e.g. Anmon rated 2534 on CCRL) and see if it can find the moves black played.

MM
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Re: A possible case of cheating

Post by MM » Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:55 pm

mar wrote:
MM wrote:But on the other hand i think there is a particular move that hardly can be from a 1700: 25...Kg8.
I personally see nothing special about Kg8.
Black bludered with 28...Qxb4 as has been written already.
Qxa2 is obvious - black can't capture it because of Rxc1#
However the tactics behind 28...Qxa2 then later followed by 32...Be4 threatening a checkmate, not sure.
Can a 1700 player see it? (much stronger than me btw :) I don't know I'm very weak OTB.
Perhaps black was just lucky - can happen.
Hi Martin,

just because there's nothing special in 25....Kg8 it is a very suspicious move.

According to Houdini 2.0c here Black has at least 15 (!) moves scoring from -0.13 to +0.23 (depth 24), and black found just the best move, an apparently innocent move like Kg8, the move preferred by Houdini. I think it is very hard that a 1700 (and more) chooses just that.


[D]2r2k2/1p2bpp1/q6p/3pPp2/1p1P4/1P6/P2QbPPP/R1B1N1K1 b - - 0 25


Best Regards
MM

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