A possible case of cheating

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GenoM
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Re: A possible case of cheating

Post by GenoM » Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:50 am

Just one question to Miguel, and other defenders of "for me Kg8 doesn't seem like a computer move": Have you ever played OTB chess?
take it easy :)

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michiguel
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Re: A possible case of cheating

Post by michiguel » Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:41 am

GenoM wrote:Just one question to Miguel, and other defenders of "for me Kg8 doesn't seem like a computer move": Have you ever played OTB chess?
Yes, I remember the distant feel of wood in my fingers. I also remember my soul debating my mind about the purpose of the game. And my soul was telling my mind that those games will make me feel human, and maybe one day, they could be useful to tell the experience. My mind did not understand it at the time, but it does now. The day has come.

I, Robot

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Re: A possible case of cheating

Post by michiguel » Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:50 am

MM wrote:
michiguel wrote: I do not feel Kf8 is a computer move. It is quite natural if you see that all pieces are in optimal position, you control the board, and then you bring the king to the center.

Miguel


R = King (King = Re in Italian)




[D]2r3k1/1p1bbppp/1q2p3/3pPn2/1p1P1B2/1PrB1N2/P2Q1PPP/R2R2K1 b - - 0 1

Analysis by Fritz 13: depth 17

1. -/+ (-0.85): 18...Rf8 19.Ag5 Axg5 20.Dxg5 h6 21.Df4 Ce7 22.Ah7 Ab5 23.Te1 Da6 24.h3 Ae2 25.Ch4 Ad3 26.Axd3 Dxd3 27.Tad1 Dc2
2. -/+ (-0.83): 18...Ab5 19.Axb5 Dxb5 20.Tac1 Db6 21.De2 h5 22.h3 Txc1 23.Axc1 h4 24.Ab2 Tc6 25.Ac1 Da7 26.Af4 Tc8 27.Ac1
3. -/+ (-0.71): 18...Rh8 19.Axf5 exf5 20.Tdc1 Da6 21.Dd1 Rg8 22.Ad2 Txc1 23.Txc1 Dxa2 24.Ta1 Db2 25.Ta7
4. =/+ (-0.68): 18...h6 19.g4 Ab5 20.Axb5 Dxb5 21.gxf5 Txf3 22.fxe6 fxe6 23.Ae3 De8 24.Tac1 Dg6+ 25.Rh1 Tc3 26.Tg1 De4 27.Tg2 Ag5 28.Axg5 hxg5 29.Te1 Tfd3 30.Txe4 Txd2
5. =/+ (-0.67): 18...Ae8 19.De2 h6 20.g4 Ch4 21.Cxh4 Axh4 22.Ad2 T3c7 23.Ae3 Ae7 24.Tac1 Tc3 25.Rg2 Ac6 26.Tc2 Ad7 27.Tdc1
6. =/+ (-0.55): 18...Da7 19.De2 g6 20.Ad2 T3c7 21.Axf5 exf5 22.Tdc1 Tc2 23.h3 b6 24.Txc2 Txc2 25.Dd3 Txa2 26.Txa2 Dxa2 27.Ag5 Af8 28.Ac1
7. =/+ (-0.55): 18...Af8 19.g4 Ab5 20.Axb5 Dxb5 21.gxf5 Txf3 22.f6 Tfc3 23.Tac1 Da5 24.Db2 Db6 25.Ae3 gxf6 26.exf6 Dd8 27.Ag5 Ad6
8. =/+ (-0.48): 18...Ad8 19.De1 Ta8 20.Axf5 exf5 21.Ad2 Tc2 22.Axb4 Taxa2 23.Txa2 Txa2 24.Td2 Da6 25.h3 Ta1 26.Td1 Txd1 27.Dxd1 f4
9. =/+ (-0.42): 18...g6 19.Ag5 Af8 20.Axf5 exf5 21.Ah6 Ae7 22.Ag5 Tc2 23.Df4 Af8 24.Ah6 Dd8 25.Axf8 Dxf8 26.Tdc1 Ab5 27.Txc2
10. =/+ (-0.31): 18...Ac6 19.De2 g6 20.Ac1 Ad7 21.Ab2 T3c6 22.g4 Ch4 23.Cxh4 Axh4 24.De3 Ta8 25.Rg2 Ae7 26.Tdc1
11. = (-0.30): 18...Te8 19.Tac1 Da5 20.De2 Ta8 21.g4 Ch6 22.Axh6 gxh6 23.Dd2 Rg7 24.Tc2 Txc2 25.Axc2 Dxa2 26.Dd3 Th8
12. = (-0.30): 18...Ch4 19.Cxh4 Axh4 20.De2 Ae7 21.Ad2 T3c7 22.h3 Da7 23.De3 Ae8 24.Tdc1 h6 25.Txc7 Txc7 26.h4 Db6 27.h5 Ag5 28.f4 Ae7
13. = (-0.29): 18...h5 19.Ag5 Af8 20.Df4 Da5 21.Axf5 exf5 22.Ch4 Tc2 23.Cxf5 Txa2 24.Txa2 Dxa2 25.Ce3 Dxb3 26.Df3
14. = (-0.23): 18...Dd8 19.De2 h5 20.Ad2 T3c6 21.Tac1 Ta8 22.Ab1 Db6 23.Axf5 exf5 24.Ag5 Af8 25.Txc6 bxc6 26.Tc1
15. = (-0.21): 18...T3c6 19.Db2 h6 20.Ad2 T6c7 21.Tac1 Txc1 22.Txc1 Txc1+ 23.Axc1 Ab5 24.Axb5 Dxb5 25.Dc2 Db6 26.Dc8+ Af8 27.Ae3 Dc6
16. = (-0.12): 18...Td8 19.Tdc1 Da5 20.g4 Ch4 21.Cxh4 Axh4 22.a3 Txc1+ 23.Txc1 Dxa3 24.Tc7 Dxb3 25.Txb7 Ae7 26.Ag5 f6 27.Af4 Da3 28.exf6 Da1+ 29.Rg2 Axf6 30.Dxb4

Here there are at least 16 moves that give and advantage to black in the range -0.85 / -0.12.

I can't believe a 1700, with a so wide range of possible moves, plays just that, considering that the whole game has been played by the 1700 like a computer (the analysis that i made confirm that).

I think King f8 is a computer move, because a computer (engine) makes calculations and it probably gives to the centrlization of the king a good score but every human hardly would reason in this terms in this position, there's still much to work on the board before centralizing the king.

And consider that we are analyzing post-mortem, he played that move ''before'', not ''after''.

Best Regards
There are not so many human moves in this position. Black is threatening d4, but it could not take Nxd4 because of the obvious trick Bxh7+. So, the logic is to either remove the king from g8, or play h6/g6. h6 or g6 weakens the king side. So, Kh8 or Kf8 are options to consider. The only other move that could become a candidate is Bb5, trying to exchange the bad bishop.

Miguel

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Re: A possible case of cheating

Post by MM » Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:53 am

michiguel wrote:
MM wrote:
michiguel wrote: I do not feel Kf8 is a computer move. It is quite natural if you see that all pieces are in optimal position, you control the board, and then you bring the king to the center.

Miguel



[D]2r3k1/1p1bbppp/1q2p3/3pPn2/1p1P1B2/1PrB1N2/P2Q1PPP/R2R2K1 b - - 0 1

I can't believe a 1700, with a so wide range of possible moves, plays just that, considering that the whole game has been played by the 1700 like a computer (the analysis that i made confirm that).

I think King f8 is a computer move, because a computer (engine) makes calculations and it probably gives to the centrlization of the king a good score but every human hardly would reason in this terms in this position, there's still much to work on the board before centralizing the king.

And consider that we are analyzing post-mortem, he played that move ''before'', not ''after''.

Best Regards
There are not so many human moves in this position. Black is threatening d4, but it could not take Nxd4 because of the obvious trick Bxh7+. So, the logic is to either remove the king from g8, or play h6/g6. h6 or g6 weakens the king side. So, Kh8 or Kf8 are options to consider. The only other move that could become a candidate is Bb5, trying to exchange the bad bishop.

Miguel


That is the point Miguel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpyK4Kra3lE

It is a rule of chess, afterwards many players can say ''ah yes, it's totally obvious'' but the problem is to find the moves during the games, especially if you are a 1700 and not Bobby Fischer, and especially when you find them for 27 times in a row.

Best Regards

P.S. In my opinion very deep and nice words from Nigel Short on Fischer. I analyzed a lot of his games and it is true, afterwards it seemed extremely logical, before you wasn't able to find what he found!
MM

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Re: A possible case of cheating

Post by skoony » Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:26 am

MM wrote:
michiguel wrote:
MM wrote:
michiguel wrote: I do not feel Kf8 is a computer move. It is quite natural if you see that all pieces are in optimal position, you control the board, and then you bring the king to the center.

Miguel



[D]2r3k1/1p1bbppp/1q2p3/3pPn2/1p1P1B2/1PrB1N2/P2Q1PPP/R2R2K1 b - - 0 1

I can't believe a 1700, with a so wide range of possible moves, plays just that, considering that the whole game has been played by the 1700 like a computer (the analysis that i made confirm that).

I think King f8 is a computer move, because a computer (engine) makes calculations and it probably gives to the centrlization of the king a good score but every human hardly would reason in this terms in this position, there's still much to work on the board before centralizing the king.

And consider that we are analyzing post-mortem, he played that move ''before'', not ''after''.

Best Regards
There are not so many human moves in this position. Black is threatening d4, but it could not take Nxd4 because of the obvious trick Bxh7+. So, the logic is to either remove the king from g8, or play h6/g6. h6 or g6 weakens the king side. So, Kh8 or Kf8 are options to consider. The only other move that could become a candidate is Bb5, trying to exchange the bad bishop.

Miguel


That is the point Miguel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpyK4Kra3lE

It is a rule of chess, afterwards many players can say ''ah yes, it's totally obvious'' but the problem is to find the moves during the games, especially if you are a 1700 and not Bobby Fischer, and especially when you find them for 27 times in a row.

Best Regards

P.S. In my opinion very deep and nice words from Nigel Short on Fischer. I analyzed a lot of his games and it is true, afterwards it seemed extremely logical, before you wasn't able to find what he found!

you are giving fritz to much credit.
dig out an old chess informent or favorite player collection.
go over the games with fritz.
you will be amazed at how many games are full of fritz moves.
remember these programs play by the same rules we do.
they just play them without fault and to a certainty most of us
cant copy.
instead of saying he's playing like an engine,you should be
saying the engine plays like him.(only better 99.9%of the time.)

regards
mike
by the time i get there,i'll be there.

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Re: A possible case of cheating

Post by Sven » Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:30 pm

GenoM wrote:Just one question to Miguel, and other defenders of "for me Kg8 doesn't seem like a computer move": Have you ever played OTB chess?
Miguel @ FIDE
Sven @ Deutscher Schachbund

:-)

Sven

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JuLieN
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Re: A possible case of cheating

Post by JuLieN » Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:43 pm

Sven Schüle wrote:
GenoM wrote:Just one question to Miguel, and other defenders of "for me Kg8 doesn't seem like a computer move": Have you ever played OTB chess?
Miguel @ FIDE
Sven @ Deutscher Schachbund

:-)

Sven
Miguel is a FIDE Master?????? :shock:

I'll never joke about you again, Miguel!*

Image

* until next time...
"The only good bug is a dead bug." (Don Dailey)
Image [Blog: http://tinyurl.com/predateur ] [Facebook: http://tinyurl.com/fbpredateur ] [MacEngines: http://tinyurl.com/macengines ]

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GenoM
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Re: A possible case of cheating

Post by GenoM » Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:01 pm

Sven Schüle wrote:
GenoM wrote:Just one question to Miguel, and other defenders of "for me Kg8 doesn't seem like a computer move": Have you ever played OTB chess?
Miguel @ FIDE

:-)

Sven
Finally an answer I can understand :D

If he really thinks Kf8 is natural human move, all I can say about him is that obviously he's better programmer than chess player.

Regards,
Geno
take it easy :)

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Kyodai
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Two games

Post by Kyodai » Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:10 pm

Regarding how many moves played by a human that computer (f.e fritz) prefers

Here are two games I played recently vs Chessmaster personalities - 15 min games. Feel free to check my moves with some engine. I have not checked and many years have past since I competed in chess - so I have no rating at all right now..

[Event "Training"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2012.09.18"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Larsson, Sune"]
[Black "Vanessa"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "E15"]
[BlackElo "2330"]
[Annotator "Larsson"]
[PlyCount "107"]
[EventDate "2012.??.??"]
[TimeControl "900+3"]

{Vanessa is a strong 2330-rated player with no obvious weaknesses. Her play is
balanced and her opening book knowledge is deep.} 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 b6
4. g3 Ba6 5. b3 Bb7 6. Bg2 Bb4+ 7. Bd2 Be7 8. Nc3 O-O 9. O-O Ne4 10. Nxe4 ({
Relevant:} 10. d5 Nxd2 11. Qxd2 Bb4 12. e4 c6 13. Nd4 cxd5 14. exd5 exd5 15.
Rad1 Qf6 16. Nde2 Na6 17. Bxd5 Bc6 18. Qc2 Bxc3 19. Qxc3 Qxc3 20. Nxc3 Rfe8 21.
Rd2 Kf8 22. Rfd1 Nc7 23. Bg2 Re7 24. Rd6 Bxg2 25. Kxg2 Ke8 26. Kf3 Rd8 27. g4
Re6 28. R6d2 Re5 29. h4 Ke7 30. Ne2 Ne6 31. Ng3 g6 32. g5 Nc5 33. b4 Na6 34. a3
Nc7 35. Ne4 d5 36. Nf6 h6 37. Nxd5+ Nxd5 38. Rxd5 Rf5+ 39. Ke3 {1-0 Danielsen,
H (2496)-Kristjansson,S (2403)/Selfoss 2003/EXT 2005}) 10... Bxe4 11. Ne5 $146
({Predecessor (11):} 11. Bc3 d5 12. Nd2 Bxg2 13. Kxg2 dxc4 14. Nxc4 Qd5+ 15. f3
Rd8 16. Qc2 {1/2-1/2 Kljako,D (2183)-Sandhu,M (2324)/Pula 2010/CBM 137 Extra})
11... Bxg2 12. Kxg2 d6 13. Nd3 Bf6 14. Bc3 c5 15. e3 cxd4 16. Bxd4 Bxd4 17.
exd4 Nd7 $11 18. Qf3 a5 19. Qc6 Qe7 20. Rfe1 Rfc8 21. Qb5 Nf6 $5 22. Nf4 (22.
Qxb6 a4 23. Qb5 axb3 24. axb3 Rab8 25. Qa6 Qd8 26. Rab1 $11) 22... Qb7+ 23. f3
Qa6 24. Qxa6 Rxa6 25. Rac1 Ra7 26. Re2 a4 27. Rec2 Nd7 28. b4 Rac7 29. Nd3 Nf6
30. a3 $11 h5 31. Kf2 b5 32. c5 Kh8 $6 33. Ke2 Kh7 34. Kd2 $14 Nd5 $2 (34... d5
$14) (34... Ne8 $14) 35. cxd6 Rxc2+ 36. Rxc2 Rd8 37. Rc6 $18 g5 38. Nc5 Kg7 39.
Ne4 Kg6 40. Nc3 Nxc3 41. Kxc3 Rd7 42. Rb6 f5 43. Rxb5 Rxd6 44. Rc5 g4 45. f4
Rb6 46. b5 Rb7 47. Kc4 Rb8 48. Rc6 Kf7 49. Kc5 h4 50. gxh4 Ra8 51. b6 Rb8 52.
Rc7+ Kg6 53. b7 Kh5 54. Kc6 1-0


[Event "Training"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2012.09.21"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Muldoon"]
[Black "Larsson, Sune"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "A00"]
[WhiteElo "2432"]
[Annotator "Larsson"]
[PlyCount "90"]
[EventDate "2012.??.??"]
[TimeControl "900+3"]

{Muldoon`s play is designed to get to the endgame with a superiority of pawns
and he is adept at exploiting passed pawns. His weakness is that he sometimes
trades away minor pieces for the pawn superiority. He is rated 2432.} 1. e3 g6
2. Nf3 Bg7 3. c4 d6 ({Relevant:} 3... e5 4. d4 d6 5. dxe5 dxe5 6. Qxd8+ Kxd8 7.
Nc3 f6 8. b3 Be6 9. Ba3 Nd7 10. O-O-O Nh6 11. h3 Nf7 12. g4 c6 13. Be2 Kc7 14.
Nd5+ Kc8 15. Rd2 Bf8 16. Bxf8 Rxf8 17. Rhd1 cxd5 18. cxd5 Bxg4 19. hxg4 Nd6 20.
Rh1 Rf7 21. g5 f5 22. Ne1 Kd8 23. f3 Rc8+ 24. Kb2 Ke8 25. Bf1 Kf8 26. Nc2 Nb6
27. Bd3 e4 28. fxe4 fxe4 29. Bf1 Rc5 30. Nd4 Rxd5 31. Rdh2 Nf5 32. Rxh7 Nxe3
33. Ne6+ {Gelashvili,T (2622)-Mohr,G (2488)/Antalya 2009/CBM 128 Extra/0-1}) 4.
Be2 b6 $146 ({Predecessor (16):} 4... e5 5. d3 Nh6 6. Nbd2 O-O 7. Rb1 g5 8. h4
g4 9. Ng5 a5 10. a3 a4 11. Nge4 Bd7 12. Ng3 f5 13. b4 axb3 14. Qxb3 Bc6 15. e4
f4 16. Ngf1 Nd7 17. c5+ d5 18. Qc2 Nf6 19. Bb2 d4 20. Bd1 Qe7 21. Qc4+ Kh8 22.
a4 Ra6 23. Ba3 Qd7 24. Bb4 Rfa8 25. a5 Bb5 26. Qb3 Nf7 27. h5 Bh6 28. Nc4 Rg8
29. Bd2 Bc6 30. Rg1 Qe7 31. Nh2 g3 32. Nf3 gxf2+ 33. Kxf2 Raa8 34. Kf1 {
Kabanova,E (2164)-Kokarev,D (2616)/Samara 2012/CB28_2012/0-1 (70)}) 5. O-O Bb7
6. Nc3 Nd7 7. d4 e6 8. e4 Ne7 9. Be3 h6 10. d5 e5 11. Qc2 O-O 12. Bd3 f5 13.
exf5 gxf5 14. Nh4 e4 15. Nxe4 $6 (15. Be2 $11) 15... fxe4 16. Bxe4 Nf6 17. Bf5
Bc8 $15 18. Bd4 $2 Nxf5 19. Nxf5 Bxf5 20. Qxf5 Qd7 $19 21. Qxd7 Nxd7 22. Bxg7
Kxg7 23. Rac1 a5 24. Rc2 Rae8 25. f4 Re4 26. f5 h5 27. b3 Rfe8 28. Rc3 Re3 29.
Rxe3 Rxe3 30. h3 Kf6 31. Kf2 Rc3 32. Re1 Rc2+ 33. Re2 Rxe2+ 34. Kxe2 Kxf5 35.
Ke3 h4 36. g3 hxg3 37. Kf3 Ne5+ 38. Kxg3 Nd3 39. a3 Nc1 40. b4 axb4 41. axb4
Nd3 42. Kf3 Nxb4 43. Ke3 Na6 44. Kf3 Nc5 45. Ke3 Ne4 0-1

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Olivier Deville
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Epilogue

Post by Olivier Deville » Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:28 pm

The player has been interviewed by our comitee.

He could not quite explain the tactics behind Kg8. For him it was only a waiting move. Still, his comments on the whole game were rather convincing.

He has been given the benefit of the doubt, and he will stay in the tournament.

Olivier

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