How Much Is Hiarcs 14 worth?

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How Much Is Hiarcs 14 Worth?

US$0.00
9
15%
US$1.00 to US$10.00
12
19%
US$11.00 to US$20.00
11
18%
US$21.00 to US$30.00
11
18%
US$31.00 to US$40.00
4
6%
US$41.00 to US$50.00
2
3%
US$51.00 to US$60.00
2
3%
US$61.00 to US$70.00
0
No votes
US$71.00 to US$79.95
11
18%
 
Total votes: 62

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mclane
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Re: How Much Is Hiarcs 14 worth?

Post by mclane » Fri Sep 14, 2012 11:45 pm

Don wrote:
mclane wrote:
Don wrote:
hgm wrote:Someone who actually has experience with this in correspondence Chess (Uly on Rybkaforum) tells a completely different story, though. Accoring to him Houdini is virtually useless, because it initially produces moves that, although winning in blitz, are losing in correspondence Chess. By the time (many hours) it switches to moves that are any good, other engines have already settled on those moves for a long time. So he does no longer use Houdini, but HIARCS, which suggests moves no other engine suggests, he considers a valuable asset...
I have a very hard time believing that. Any top engine should be play better correspondence chess than one hundreds of ELO weaker.

Maybe this is a style issue. Maybe, for whatever reason, Uly does not like the playing style of Houdini for correspondence chess.

I would like to see examples of what he is talking about, not just one but several - but even one would be better than nothing.
ok. i do begin.
1st testposition:


this is a real mail chess / correspondance game.

[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "?"]
[Round "?"]
[White "?"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 a6 5.Nc3 Qc7 6.Be2 Nf6 7.O-O Bc5 8.Kh1 b5 9.f4 Bb7 10.Bf3 O-O 11.e5 Bxf3 12.Nxf3 Ng4 13.Ne4 Be7 14.Nfg5 f5 15.exf6 Nxf6 16.Qd3 g6 17.Qh3 h5 18.Nxf6+ Bxf6 19.Qd3 Kg7 20.Ne4 Nc6 21.c3 Be7 22.Be3 d5 23.Nd2 Rf5 24.Nf3 Bf6 25.a4 bxa4 26.Rxa4 a5 27.h3 h4 28.Bf2 Rh8 29.Re1 Kf7 30.Qd2 Qb8 31.Qe2 Qd6 32.Nh2 Bg7 33.Ng4 Qd7 34.Qd1 Rfh5 35.Rae4 Re8 36.R4e3 Rf5 37.Qa4 Rh5 38.R3e2 Qc7 39.Qb5 Qd7 40.Qd3 Qd6 41.b3 Qd7 42.c4 Re7 43.Rd2 Qd6 44.Rdd1 Rc7 45.Qf3 Kg8 46.Qe4 Ne7 47.c5 Qd7 48.Qxe6+ Qxe6 49.Rxe6 Kf7 50.Rd6 d4 51.Ne5+ Bxe5 52.fxe5 Rxe5 53.Bxd4 Re6 54.Bf2 Nf5 55.Rd7+ Rxd7 56.Rxd7+ Ke8 57.Rd1 Re2 58.Re1 Nd4 59.Rxe2+ Nxe2 60.Be1 Nd4 61.Bxa5 Nxb3 62.Bb6 Nd4 63.Kg1 Kd7 64.Kf2 Ke6 65.Ke3 Ke5 66.Bc7+ Kd5 *

move 62.

[D]4k3/8/6p1/B1P5/7p/1n5P/6P1/7K w - - 0 62
Houdini moves Be1.
this gives up the important pawn c5.
in opposite to houdini2.0, hiarcs14 changes to the right move bb6 that defends
the important pawn. hiarcs increases evaluation from 0.80 to 1 pawn and later 1.20.


humans know how important pawns are.
chess programs need knowledge. and if the program
has not implemented this knowledge in the evaluation function,
search depth will NOT find it although
we have fast computers and very fast chess programs (fast searchers).
That is pretty bizarre - I cannot figure out why Komodo (who also likes Be1) would so happily give up a passed pawn. Komodo does give a relatively high score for the king side pawn majority but that should not trump a nice passed pawn.

It may be too much emphasis on bishop mobility but that doesn't really explain it either. This is a puzzler. I think Bb6 probably wins.
at least the white correspondance game player would have been
fracked with analyzing with houdini/komodo.

I have no clue why they prefer Be1. But i would guess hiarcs has static knowledge about pawns that overwrite the search stuff in this example.

hiarcs is a slow searcher. it is doing few NPS, fewer than other engines.
I guess it is because it is using more stuff in the evaluation function and prefers static knowledge instead of trusting the search will find it.

this helps a lot on SLOW machines, e.g. on the ipad.

i remember that in the old days of dedicated chess computers we had similar situations.

e.g. Fidelity Mach III knew how to mate with K and B+N vs. K.
Also Mephisto II ESB had this knowledge.
Important is also to know that your bishop is of wrong color to protect that passed pawn in the endgame. these situations happen often.

of course these "knowledge" comes rare. but if you play a correspondance chess game, that is beeing played in
months ! or more.
And you lose although you have the strongest chess programs,
because you TRUST them, and then such a stupid
GAP is the reason you lose your long long long played correspondance
game, its very disapointing.

of course humans who 100% trust chess programs instead of using their own brain, are naive.
correspondance chess IS about thinking yourself. the computers help in tactics.
What seems like a fairy tale today may be reality tomorrow.
Here we have a fairy tale of the day after tomorrow....

styx
Posts: 338
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:59 pm
Location: Germany

Re: How Much Is Hiarcs 14 worth?

Post by styx » Fri Sep 14, 2012 11:57 pm

on my system houdini changes to Bb6 after 2m:20s. but i am not sure if he will stick to it.

komodo, stockfish, junior: ~1:20-1:30
critter: 58s
shredder 12, rybka 4.1, theking: ~1s

overall a pretty consistent result. i am sure in correspondence chess you analyze length usually exceeds 3 minutes/move.

now you could ask what takes some engine so long to hold on the passed pawn, but maybe the situation is not as clear as it seems. i am not sure, since i am not a very good chess player.

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mclane
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Re: How Much Is Hiarcs 14 worth?

Post by mclane » Sat Sep 15, 2012 1:16 am

styx wrote:on my system houdini changes to Bb6 after 2m:20s. but i am not sure if he will stick to it.

komodo, stockfish, junior: ~1:20-1:30
critter: 58s
shredder 12, rybka 4.1, theking: ~1s

overall a pretty consistent result. i am sure in correspondence chess you analyze length usually exceeds 3 minutes/move.

now you could ask what takes some engine so long to hold on the passed pawn, but maybe the situation is not as clear as it seems. i am not sure, since i am not a very good chess player.
i don't know what your computer is. it can be that houdini maybe has found it on a fast computer via search. while it seems hiarcs is doing it with the help of knowledge, so beeing faster on slow machines.

what is your computer ? how many cores you used ?


on my system i get the following results:

1 thread used
Engine: Houdini 2.0 x64 [t1]
by Robert Houdart
4.00 0:00 +0.11 62.Bb6 Kd7 63.Kh2 Kc6 (307) 76.0
4.00 0:00 +0.26 62.Be1 Nxc5 63.Bxh4 Kf7 64.Kh2 (463) 115.0
5.00 0:00 +0.27 62.Be1 Nxc5 63.Bxh4 Kf7 64.Kh2 Ke6 (652) 163.0
6.00 0:00 +0.32 62.Be1 Nxc5 63.Bxh4 Kf7 64.Kh2 Ne4 65.Be1 (994) 198.0
7.00 0:00 +0.33 62.Be1 Nxc5 63.Bxh4 Kf7 64.Kh2 Ne4 65.Be1 Ke6 (1.571) 261.0
8.00 0:00 +0.29 62.Be1 Nxc5 63.Bxh4 Kf7 64.Bg5 Ne4 65.Be3 Ke6 66.Kh2 (3.994) 399.0
9.00 0:00 +0.34++ 62.Be1 (6.639) 510.0
9.00 0:00 +0.40 62.Be1 Nxc5 63.Bxh4 Kf7 64.Kg1 Ne4 65.Kf1 Ke6 66.Be1 Ke5 67.Ke2 (10.221) 567.0
10.00 0:00 +0.40 62.Be1 Nxc5 63.Bxh4 Kf7 64.Kg1 Ne4 65.Kf1 Ke6 66.Be1 Ke5 67.Ke2 (18.037) 644.0
11.00 0:00 +0.41 62.Be1 Nxc5 63.Bxh4 Kf7 64.Kg1 Ne4 65.Kf1 Ke6 66.Be1 Ke5 67.Ke2 g5 68.Kf3 (31.187) 693.0
12.00 0:00 +0.48++ 62.Be1 (67.615) 704.0
12.00 0:00 +0.45 62.Be1 Nxc5 63.Bxh4 Ne4 64.Kg1 Kd7 65.Kf1 Ke6 66.Ke2 Kf5 67.Be1 Kf4 68.Bf2 g5 69.Be3+ Ke5 (86.658) 710.0
13.00 0:00 +0.48 62.Be1 Nxc5 63.Bxh4 Kf7 64.Kg1 Ke6 65.Kf2 g5 66.Bg3 Kf5 67.Ke3 Ne4 68.Bh2 Nc3 69.Kd4 (148.489) 753.0
14.00 0:00 +0.49 62.Be1 Nxc5 63.Bxh4 Kf7 64.Kg1 Ke6 65.Kf2 g5 66.Bg3 Ne4+ 67.Kf3 Kf5 68.Be1 Ke5 69.Bf2 Kd5 70.Bg1 (240.368) 730.0
15.00 0:00 +0.45 62.Be1 Nxc5 63.Bxh4 Kf7 64.Kg1 Ke6 65.Kf2 g5 66.Bg3 Nd7 67.Kf3 Kf5 68.Bf2 Nf6 69.g4+ Ke5 70.Bg1 Ne4 (364.196) 732.0
16.00 0:00 +0.51++ 62.Be1 (651.770) 724.0
16.00 0:01 +0.49 62.Be1 Nxc5 63.Bxh4 Kf7 64.Kg1 Ne4 65.Kf1 Ke6 66.Ke2 g5 67.Be1 Kd5 68.Kf3 Nf6 69.Bf2 Ne4 70.Bg1 Ke5 71.Kg4 (743.050) 725.0
17.00 0:01 +0.51 62.Be1 Nxc5 63.Bxh4 Kf7 64.Kg1 Ne4 65.Kf1 Ke6 66.Ke2 g5 67.Be1 Kd5 68.Kf3 Ke5 69.Bf2 Kd5 70.Bg1 Ke5 71.Kg4 (1.113.780) 756.0
18.00 0:02 +0.51 62.Be1 Nxc5 63.Bxh4 Kf7 64.Kg1 Ne4 65.Kf1 Ke6 66.Ke2 g5 67.Be1 Ke5 68.Ke3 Kd5 69.Kf3 Ke5 70.Bf2 Kd5 71.Bg1 Ke5 72.Kg4 (1.666.474) 746.0
19.00 0:03 +0.51 62.Be1 Nxc5 63.Bxh4 Kf7 64.Kg1 Ne4 65.Kf1 Ke6 66.Ke2 g5 67.Be1 Ke5 68.Ke3 Kf5 69.Kf3 Ke5 70.Bf2 Kd5 71.Bg1 Ke5 72.Kg4 (2.551.379) 753.0
20.00 0:06 +0.56 62.Be1 Nxc5 63.Bxh4 Kf7 64.Kg1 Ne4 65.Kf1 Ke6 66.Ke2 Kf5 67.Kf3 Nd2+ 68.Ke3 Ne4 69.Bd8 Nc3 70.h4 Ke5 71.Bg5 Ne4 72.g4 Kd5 73.Kf3 Nxg5+ 74.hxg5 (4.895.213) 741.0
21.01 0:12 +0.58 62.Be1 Nxc5 63.Bxh4 Kf7 64.Kg1 Ne4 65.Kf1 Ke6 66.Ke2 Kf5 67.Bd8 Nc5 68.Ke3 Ne6 69.Ba5 g5 70.Bc3 g4 71.h4 Nf4 72.g3 Nd5+ 73.Kd3 (9.055.475) 742.0
22.01 0:20 +0.60 62.Be1 Nxc5 63.Bxh4 Kf7 64.Kg1 Ne4 65.Kf1 Ke6 66.Ke2 Kf5 67.Bd8 Nc3+ 68.Ke3 Nd5+ 69.Kf3 Nc3 70.Bb6 Ke5 71.h4 Nd5 72.Bd8 Nc3 73.Bg5 Ne4 74.Be3 Nc3 75.Bf4+ (15.157.068) 740.0
23.01 0:26 +0.60 62.Be1 Nxc5 63.Bxh4 Kf7 64.Kg1 Ne4 65.Kf1 Ke6 66.Ke2 Kf5 67.Bd8 Nc3+ 68.Ke3 Nd5+ 69.Kf3 Nc3 70.Bb6 Ke5 71.h4 Nd5 72.Bd8 Nc3 73.Bg5 Ne4 74.Be3 Nc3 75.Bf4+ (20.115.545) 759.0
24.01 0:36 +0.60 62.Be1 Nxc5 63.Bxh4 Kf7 64.Kg1 Ne4 65.Kf1 Ke6 66.Ke2 Kf5 67.Bd8 Nc3+ 68.Ke3 Nd5+ 69.Kf3 Nc3 70.h4 Ne4 71.Bc7 Nd2+ 72.Ke3 Nb3 73.Bd8 Ke5 74.g4 Ke6 75.Bb6 (28.608.625) 777.0
25.01 0:54 +0.60 62.Be1 Nxc5 63.Bxh4 Kf7 64.Kg1 Ne4 65.Kf1 Ke6 66.Ke2 Kf5 67.Bd8 Nc3+ 68.Ke3 Nd5+ 69.Kf3 Nc3 70.h4 Ne4 71.g4+ Ke5 72.Bg5 Kd5 73.Ke3 Ke5 74.Bd8 Nc3 75.Bc7+ (43.280.533) 793.0
26.01 1:21 +0.60 62.Be1 Nxc5 63.Bxh4 Kf7 64.Kg1 Ne4 65.Kf1 Ke6 66.Ke2 Kf5 67.Bd8 Nd6 68.Ke3 Nc4+ 69.Kd4 Nd6 70.g4+ Ke6 71.Bh4 Nb5+ 72.Kc4 Nd6+ 73.Kc5 Nf7 74.Kd4 g5 75.Bg3 (64.112.229) 788.0
27.01 2:54 +0.61 62.Be1 Nxc5 63.Bxh4 Kf7 64.Kg1 Ne4 65.Kf1 Ke6 66.Ke2 Kf5 67.Bd8 Nc5 68.Ke3 Ne6 69.Ba5 Nc5 70.Bc3 Ne6 71.g3 Nc7 72.g4+ Ke6 73.Kd4 Nb5+ 74.Kd3 Kd5 75.h4 (136.035.369) 780.0
28.01 4:30 +0.61 62.Be1 Nxc5 63.Bxh4 Kf7 64.Kg1 Ne4 65.Kf1 Ke6 66.Ke2 Kf5 67.Bd8 Nc5 68.Ke3 Ne6 69.Ba5 Ke5 70.Bc3+ Kd5 71.h4 Kc4 72.Bb2 Kd5 73.g3 Nc5 74.Bd4 Ne4 75.g4 (203.351.819) 752.0
29.01 9:28 +0.61 62.Be1 Nxc5 63.Bxh4 Kf7 64.Kg1 Ne4 65.Kf1 Ke6 66.Ke2 Kf5 67.Bd8 Nc5 68.Ke3 Ne6 69.Ba5 Ke5 70.Bc3+ Kd5 71.h4 Kc4 72.Bb2 Kd5 73.g4 Nc5 74.Bc3 Nd7 75.Kf4 (420.750.999) 739.0
4.Bc3 Nd7 75.Kf4 (420.750.


i got - as you can see from the output - no change to Bb6 within the 10 minutes i watched the computers main-line.
BTW: it can be that this is a tablebase issue because there are only few pieces left on board.

houdini is computing arround ~730 kn/s.



of course it can be that the programs do not understand the position.
i would not have given away the c5 pawn so easily.

if you give it away early, white needs to win at the king side. so the question is, if the win can be forced after the exchange c5 pawn for h4 pawn.

i would have tried the following continuation for white to win:


[Event ""]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2012.09.15"]
[Round "?"]
[White ""]
[Black "?"]
[ECO "B43"]
[Result "*"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 a6 5. Nc3 Qc7 6. Be2
Nf6 7. O-O Bc5 8. Kh1 b5 9. f4 Bb7 10. Bf3 O-O 11. e5 Bxf3
12. Nxf3 Ng4 13. Ne4 Be7 14. Nfg5 f5 15. exf6 Nxf6 16. Qd3
g6 17. Qh3 h5 18. Nxf6+ Bxf6 19. Qd3 Kg7 20. Ne4 Nc6 21. c3
Be7 22. Be3 d5 23. Nd2 Rf5 24. Nf3 Bf6 25. a4 bxa4 26. Rxa4
a5 27. h3 h4 28. Bf2 Rh8 29. Re1 Kf7 30. Qd2 Qb8 31. Qe2
Qd6 32. Nh2 Bg7 33. Ng4 Qd7 34. Qd1 Rfh5 35. Rae4 Re8
36. R4e3 Rf5 37. Qa4 Rh5 38. R3e2 Qc7 39. Qb5 Qd7 40. Qd3
Qd6 41. b3 Qd7 42. c4 Re7 43. Rd2 Qd6 44. Rdd1 Rc7 45. Qf3
Kg8 46. Qe4 Ne7 47. c5 Qd7 48. Qxe6+ Qxe6 49. Rxe6 Kf7
50. Rd6 d4 51. Ne5+ Bxe5 52. fxe5 Rxe5 53. Bxd4 Re6 54. Bf2
Nf5 55. Rd7+ Rxd7 56. Rxd7+ Ke8 57. Rd1 Re2 58. Re1 Nd4
59. Rxe2+ Nxe2 60. Be1 Nd4 61. Bxa5 Nxb3 62. Bb6 Nd4
63. Kg1 Kd7 64. Kf2
Ke6 65. Ke3 Ke5 66. Bc7+ Kd5 67. Bd6 Nc2+ 68. Kf3 Ne1+
69. Kf4 Nxg2+ 70. Kg5 Ke6 71. Kxg6 Kd5 72. Kh5 Ke6 73. Kg5
Kd7 74. Kg4 Kc6 75. Kf3 Ne1+ 76. Ke4 Kd7 77. Bf4 Nc2
78. Bg5 Na3 79. Bxh4 Nc2 *
What seems like a fairy tale today may be reality tomorrow.
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Don
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Re: How Much Is Hiarcs 14 worth?

Post by Don » Sat Sep 15, 2012 1:32 am

The issue has nothing to do with whether the computer "understands" this position. None of the programs understand this position in the game theoretic sense - unless you see a score that indicates one is a clear win and the other is a clear draw.

There are several issues and it comes down to how the evaluation is tuned. With Komodo (and Houdini as well) I assume that taking the h pawn gives bonuses for making blacks pawn isolated and creating a candidate passer.

The passer is very good but it's isolated, so letting the knight have the pawn gets rid of this "liability" (so to speak) and gains several other thing. Of course there is no question that this is wrong in this specific position - but it's a matter of trying to balance all of these factors.

Unfortunately, no program gets all of this right 100% of the time. If you fix it for this position some other position will be wrong - so you have to either created more specific cases or find a better tuning or both.

There are millions of decisions that any given program will get wrong that another might get right - but they are getting harder to find. The better programs have less of these.

mclane wrote:
styx wrote:on my system houdini changes to Bb6 after 2m:20s. but i am not sure if he will stick to it.

komodo, stockfish, junior: ~1:20-1:30
critter: 58s
shredder 12, rybka 4.1, theking: ~1s

overall a pretty consistent result. i am sure in correspondence chess you analyze length usually exceeds 3 minutes/move.

now you could ask what takes some engine so long to hold on the passed pawn, but maybe the situation is not as clear as it seems. i am not sure, since i am not a very good chess player.
i don't know what your computer is. it can be that houdini maybe has found it on a fast computer via search. while it seems hiarcs is doing it with the help of knowledge, so beeing faster on slow machines.

what is your computer ? how many cores you used ?


on my system i get the following results:

1 thread used
Engine: Houdini 2.0 x64 [t1]
by Robert Houdart
4.00 0:00 +0.11 62.Bb6 Kd7 63.Kh2 Kc6 (307) 76.0
4.00 0:00 +0.26 62.Be1 Nxc5 63.Bxh4 Kf7 64.Kh2 (463) 115.0
5.00 0:00 +0.27 62.Be1 Nxc5 63.Bxh4 Kf7 64.Kh2 Ke6 (652) 163.0
6.00 0:00 +0.32 62.Be1 Nxc5 63.Bxh4 Kf7 64.Kh2 Ne4 65.Be1 (994) 198.0
7.00 0:00 +0.33 62.Be1 Nxc5 63.Bxh4 Kf7 64.Kh2 Ne4 65.Be1 Ke6 (1.571) 261.0
8.00 0:00 +0.29 62.Be1 Nxc5 63.Bxh4 Kf7 64.Bg5 Ne4 65.Be3 Ke6 66.Kh2 (3.994) 399.0
9.00 0:00 +0.34++ 62.Be1 (6.639) 510.0
9.00 0:00 +0.40 62.Be1 Nxc5 63.Bxh4 Kf7 64.Kg1 Ne4 65.Kf1 Ke6 66.Be1 Ke5 67.Ke2 (10.221) 567.0
10.00 0:00 +0.40 62.Be1 Nxc5 63.Bxh4 Kf7 64.Kg1 Ne4 65.Kf1 Ke6 66.Be1 Ke5 67.Ke2 (18.037) 644.0
11.00 0:00 +0.41 62.Be1 Nxc5 63.Bxh4 Kf7 64.Kg1 Ne4 65.Kf1 Ke6 66.Be1 Ke5 67.Ke2 g5 68.Kf3 (31.187) 693.0
12.00 0:00 +0.48++ 62.Be1 (67.615) 704.0
12.00 0:00 +0.45 62.Be1 Nxc5 63.Bxh4 Ne4 64.Kg1 Kd7 65.Kf1 Ke6 66.Ke2 Kf5 67.Be1 Kf4 68.Bf2 g5 69.Be3+ Ke5 (86.658) 710.0
13.00 0:00 +0.48 62.Be1 Nxc5 63.Bxh4 Kf7 64.Kg1 Ke6 65.Kf2 g5 66.Bg3 Kf5 67.Ke3 Ne4 68.Bh2 Nc3 69.Kd4 (148.489) 753.0
14.00 0:00 +0.49 62.Be1 Nxc5 63.Bxh4 Kf7 64.Kg1 Ke6 65.Kf2 g5 66.Bg3 Ne4+ 67.Kf3 Kf5 68.Be1 Ke5 69.Bf2 Kd5 70.Bg1 (240.368) 730.0
15.00 0:00 +0.45 62.Be1 Nxc5 63.Bxh4 Kf7 64.Kg1 Ke6 65.Kf2 g5 66.Bg3 Nd7 67.Kf3 Kf5 68.Bf2 Nf6 69.g4+ Ke5 70.Bg1 Ne4 (364.196) 732.0
16.00 0:00 +0.51++ 62.Be1 (651.770) 724.0
16.00 0:01 +0.49 62.Be1 Nxc5 63.Bxh4 Kf7 64.Kg1 Ne4 65.Kf1 Ke6 66.Ke2 g5 67.Be1 Kd5 68.Kf3 Nf6 69.Bf2 Ne4 70.Bg1 Ke5 71.Kg4 (743.050) 725.0
17.00 0:01 +0.51 62.Be1 Nxc5 63.Bxh4 Kf7 64.Kg1 Ne4 65.Kf1 Ke6 66.Ke2 g5 67.Be1 Kd5 68.Kf3 Ke5 69.Bf2 Kd5 70.Bg1 Ke5 71.Kg4 (1.113.780) 756.0
18.00 0:02 +0.51 62.Be1 Nxc5 63.Bxh4 Kf7 64.Kg1 Ne4 65.Kf1 Ke6 66.Ke2 g5 67.Be1 Ke5 68.Ke3 Kd5 69.Kf3 Ke5 70.Bf2 Kd5 71.Bg1 Ke5 72.Kg4 (1.666.474) 746.0
19.00 0:03 +0.51 62.Be1 Nxc5 63.Bxh4 Kf7 64.Kg1 Ne4 65.Kf1 Ke6 66.Ke2 g5 67.Be1 Ke5 68.Ke3 Kf5 69.Kf3 Ke5 70.Bf2 Kd5 71.Bg1 Ke5 72.Kg4 (2.551.379) 753.0
20.00 0:06 +0.56 62.Be1 Nxc5 63.Bxh4 Kf7 64.Kg1 Ne4 65.Kf1 Ke6 66.Ke2 Kf5 67.Kf3 Nd2+ 68.Ke3 Ne4 69.Bd8 Nc3 70.h4 Ke5 71.Bg5 Ne4 72.g4 Kd5 73.Kf3 Nxg5+ 74.hxg5 (4.895.213) 741.0
21.01 0:12 +0.58 62.Be1 Nxc5 63.Bxh4 Kf7 64.Kg1 Ne4 65.Kf1 Ke6 66.Ke2 Kf5 67.Bd8 Nc5 68.Ke3 Ne6 69.Ba5 g5 70.Bc3 g4 71.h4 Nf4 72.g3 Nd5+ 73.Kd3 (9.055.475) 742.0
22.01 0:20 +0.60 62.Be1 Nxc5 63.Bxh4 Kf7 64.Kg1 Ne4 65.Kf1 Ke6 66.Ke2 Kf5 67.Bd8 Nc3+ 68.Ke3 Nd5+ 69.Kf3 Nc3 70.Bb6 Ke5 71.h4 Nd5 72.Bd8 Nc3 73.Bg5 Ne4 74.Be3 Nc3 75.Bf4+ (15.157.068) 740.0
23.01 0:26 +0.60 62.Be1 Nxc5 63.Bxh4 Kf7 64.Kg1 Ne4 65.Kf1 Ke6 66.Ke2 Kf5 67.Bd8 Nc3+ 68.Ke3 Nd5+ 69.Kf3 Nc3 70.Bb6 Ke5 71.h4 Nd5 72.Bd8 Nc3 73.Bg5 Ne4 74.Be3 Nc3 75.Bf4+ (20.115.545) 759.0
24.01 0:36 +0.60 62.Be1 Nxc5 63.Bxh4 Kf7 64.Kg1 Ne4 65.Kf1 Ke6 66.Ke2 Kf5 67.Bd8 Nc3+ 68.Ke3 Nd5+ 69.Kf3 Nc3 70.h4 Ne4 71.Bc7 Nd2+ 72.Ke3 Nb3 73.Bd8 Ke5 74.g4 Ke6 75.Bb6 (28.608.625) 777.0
25.01 0:54 +0.60 62.Be1 Nxc5 63.Bxh4 Kf7 64.Kg1 Ne4 65.Kf1 Ke6 66.Ke2 Kf5 67.Bd8 Nc3+ 68.Ke3 Nd5+ 69.Kf3 Nc3 70.h4 Ne4 71.g4+ Ke5 72.Bg5 Kd5 73.Ke3 Ke5 74.Bd8 Nc3 75.Bc7+ (43.280.533) 793.0
26.01 1:21 +0.60 62.Be1 Nxc5 63.Bxh4 Kf7 64.Kg1 Ne4 65.Kf1 Ke6 66.Ke2 Kf5 67.Bd8 Nd6 68.Ke3 Nc4+ 69.Kd4 Nd6 70.g4+ Ke6 71.Bh4 Nb5+ 72.Kc4 Nd6+ 73.Kc5 Nf7 74.Kd4 g5 75.Bg3 (64.112.229) 788.0
27.01 2:54 +0.61 62.Be1 Nxc5 63.Bxh4 Kf7 64.Kg1 Ne4 65.Kf1 Ke6 66.Ke2 Kf5 67.Bd8 Nc5 68.Ke3 Ne6 69.Ba5 Nc5 70.Bc3 Ne6 71.g3 Nc7 72.g4+ Ke6 73.Kd4 Nb5+ 74.Kd3 Kd5 75.h4 (136.035.369) 780.0
28.01 4:30 +0.61 62.Be1 Nxc5 63.Bxh4 Kf7 64.Kg1 Ne4 65.Kf1 Ke6 66.Ke2 Kf5 67.Bd8 Nc5 68.Ke3 Ne6 69.Ba5 Ke5 70.Bc3+ Kd5 71.h4 Kc4 72.Bb2 Kd5 73.g3 Nc5 74.Bd4 Ne4 75.g4 (203.351.819) 752.0
29.01 9:28 +0.61 62.Be1 Nxc5 63.Bxh4 Kf7 64.Kg1 Ne4 65.Kf1 Ke6 66.Ke2 Kf5 67.Bd8 Nc5 68.Ke3 Ne6 69.Ba5 Ke5 70.Bc3+ Kd5 71.h4 Kc4 72.Bb2 Kd5 73.g4 Nc5 74.Bc3 Nd7 75.Kf4 (420.750.999) 739.0
4.Bc3 Nd7 75.Kf4 (420.750.


i got - as you can see from the output - no change to Bb6 within the 10 minutes i watched the computers main-line.
BTW: it can be that this is a tablebase issue because there are only few pieces left on board.

houdini is computing arround ~730 kn/s.



of course it can be that the programs do not understand the position.
i would not have given away the c5 pawn so easily.

if you give it away early, white needs to win at the king side. so the question is, if the win can be forced after the exchange c5 pawn for h4 pawn.

i would have tried the following continuation for white to win:


[Event ""]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2012.09.15"]
[Round "?"]
[White ""]
[Black "?"]
[ECO "B43"]
[Result "*"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 a6 5. Nc3 Qc7 6. Be2
Nf6 7. O-O Bc5 8. Kh1 b5 9. f4 Bb7 10. Bf3 O-O 11. e5 Bxf3
12. Nxf3 Ng4 13. Ne4 Be7 14. Nfg5 f5 15. exf6 Nxf6 16. Qd3
g6 17. Qh3 h5 18. Nxf6+ Bxf6 19. Qd3 Kg7 20. Ne4 Nc6 21. c3
Be7 22. Be3 d5 23. Nd2 Rf5 24. Nf3 Bf6 25. a4 bxa4 26. Rxa4
a5 27. h3 h4 28. Bf2 Rh8 29. Re1 Kf7 30. Qd2 Qb8 31. Qe2
Qd6 32. Nh2 Bg7 33. Ng4 Qd7 34. Qd1 Rfh5 35. Rae4 Re8
36. R4e3 Rf5 37. Qa4 Rh5 38. R3e2 Qc7 39. Qb5 Qd7 40. Qd3
Qd6 41. b3 Qd7 42. c4 Re7 43. Rd2 Qd6 44. Rdd1 Rc7 45. Qf3
Kg8 46. Qe4 Ne7 47. c5 Qd7 48. Qxe6+ Qxe6 49. Rxe6 Kf7
50. Rd6 d4 51. Ne5+ Bxe5 52. fxe5 Rxe5 53. Bxd4 Re6 54. Bf2
Nf5 55. Rd7+ Rxd7 56. Rxd7+ Ke8 57. Rd1 Re2 58. Re1 Nd4
59. Rxe2+ Nxe2 60. Be1 Nd4 61. Bxa5 Nxb3 62. Bb6 Nd4
63. Kg1 Kd7 64. Kf2
Ke6 65. Ke3 Ke5 66. Bc7+ Kd5 67. Bd6 Nc2+ 68. Kf3 Ne1+
69. Kf4 Nxg2+ 70. Kg5 Ke6 71. Kxg6 Kd5 72. Kh5 Ke6 73. Kg5
Kd7 74. Kg4 Kc6 75. Kf3 Ne1+ 76. Ke4 Kd7 77. Bf4 Nc2
78. Bg5 Na3 79. Bxh4 Nc2 *
Capital punishment would be more effective as a preventive measure if it were administered prior to the crime.

kgburcham
Posts: 2016
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 3:19 pm

Re: How Much Is Hiarcs 14 worth?

Post by kgburcham » Sat Sep 15, 2012 1:53 am

Houdini moves Be1.
this gives up the important pawn c5.
in opposite to houdini2.0, hiarcs14 changes to the right move bb6 that defends
the important pawn. hiarcs increases evaluation from 0.80 to 1 pawn and later 1.20.
[D] 4k3/8/6p1/B1P5/7p/1n5P/6P1/7K w - -

Engine: Houdini 2.0c Pro x64 (4096 MB)

31/50 0:18 +0.61 62.Be1 Nxc5 63.Bxh4 Kf7 64.Kg1 Ne4 65.Kf1 Ke6 66.Ke2 Kf5 67.Ke3 g5 68.Be1 Nf6 69.g3 Ne4 (553.420.783) 29984 TB:91.657
32/55 0:26 +0.61 62.Be1 Nxc5 63.Bxh4 Kf7 64.Kg1 Ne4 65.Kf1 g5 66.Be1 Nf6 67.Ke2 g4 68.h4 Kg6 69.Ke3 Kf5 (777.127.704) 29668 TB:161.370
33/55 0:35 +0.61 62.Be1 Nxc5 63.Bxh4 Kf7 64.Kg1 Ne4 65.Kf1 g5 66.Be1 Nf6 67.Ke2 g4 68.h4 Kg6 69.Ke3 Kf5 (1.028.718.756) 29278 TB:253.864
33/59 1:26 +0.65 62.Bb6 Kd7 63.Kg1 Na1 64.Kf2 Nc2 65.Ba5 Kc6 66.Kf3 Kxc5 67.Ke4 Kb5 68.Kd3 Na3 69.Be1 Kc5 (2.603.161.493) 30066 TB:457.290
34/59 1:41 +0.65 62.Bb6 Kd7 63.Kg1 Na1 64.Kf2 Nc2 65.Ba5 Kc6 66.Kf3 Kxc5 67.Ke4 Kb5 68.Kd3 Na3 69.Be1 Kc5 (3.024.063.716) 29904 TB:547.954
35/59 2:06 +0.65 62.Bb6 Kd7 63.Kg1 Na1 64.Kf2 Nc2 65.Ba5 Kc6 66.Kf3 Kxc5 67.Ke4 Kb5 68.Kd3 Na3 69.Be1 Kc5 (3.815.688.402) 30164 TB:743.439
36/60 2:46 +0.65 62.Bb6 Kd7 63.Kg1 Na1 64.Kf2 Nc2 65.Ba5 Kc6 66.Kf3 Kxc5 67.Ke4 Kb5 68.Kd3 Na3 69.Be1 Kc5 (5.057.169.454) 30384 TB:1.055.020
37/62 3:45 +0.65 62.Bb6 Kd7 63.Kg1 Na1 64.Kf2 Nc2 65.Ba5 Kc6 66.Kf3 Kxc5 67.Ke4 Kb5 68.Kd3 Na3 69.Be1 Kc5 (6.941.126.502) 30733 TB:1.596.451
38/77 7:29 +0.72++ 62.Bb6 (14.418.266.079) 32049 TB:2.827.674
38/77 11:17 +0.84++ 62.Bb6 (22.361.865.407) 32996 TB:3.618.870
38/77 11:50 +0.84 62.Bb6 Kd7 63.Kg1 Na1 64.Kf2 Nc2 65.Ba5 Kc6 66.Kf3 Kxc5 67.Ke4 Kb5 68.Kd3 Na3 (23.425.602.253) 32976 TB:3.659.321


Deep HIARCS 14 WCSC (2048 MB)

27/43 0:01 +1.18 62.Bb6 Kd7 63.Kg1 Nd4 64.Kf2 Nc2 65.Ke2 Kc6 66.Kd2 Nd4 67.Ke3 Nc2+ 68.Ke4 Kb5 (8.527.478) 6904 TB:11.133
28/43 0:01 +1.18 62.Bb6 Kd7 63.Kg1 Nd4 64.Kf2 Nc2 65.Ke2 Kc6 66.Kd2 Nd4 67.Ke3 Nc2+ 68.Ke4 Kb5 (9.322.300) 6411 TB:12.079
29/43 0:01 +1.19 62.Bb6 Kd7 63.Kg1 Nd4 64.Kf2 Nc2 65.Ke2 Kc6 66.Kd2 Nd4 67.Ke3 Nc2+ 68.Ke4 Kb5 69.Bd8 Kxc5 (11.973.464) 6901 TB:15.364
30/46 0:02 +1.18 62.Bb6 Kd7 63.Kg1 Nd4 64.Kf2 Nc2 65.Ke2 Kc6 66.Kd2 Nd4 67.Ke3 Nf5+ 68.Kf3 Nd4+ 69.Kg4 Nf5 (14.376.729) 7184 TB:19.068
31/49 0:02 +1.18 62.Bb6 Kd7 63.Kg1 Nd4 64.Kf2 Nc2 65.Ke2 Kc6 66.Kd2 Nd4 67.Ke3 Nf5+ 68.Kf3 Nd4+ 69.Kg4 Nf5 (15.589.868) 7174 TB:21.788
32/49 0:02 +1.18 62.Bb6 Kd7 63.Kg1 Nd4 64.Kf2 Nc2 65.Ke2 Kc6 66.Kd2 Nd4 67.Ke3 Nf5+ 68.Kf3 Nd4+ 69.Kg4 Nf5 (17.417.147) 7051 TB:27.474
33/49 0:02 +1.18 62.Bb6 Kd7 63.Kg1 Nd4 64.Kf2 Nc2 65.Ke2 Kc6 66.Kd2 Nd4 67.Ke3 Nf5+ 68.Kf3 Nd4+ 69.Kg4 Nf5 (19.665.076) 7068 TB:33.726
34/51 0:03 +1.18 62.Bb6 Kd7 63.Kg1 Nd4 64.Kf2 Nc2 65.Ke2 Kc6 66.Kd2 Nd4 67.Ke3 Nf5+ 68.Kf3 Nd4+ 69.Kg4 Nf5 70.Kf4 Kb5 (21.432.112) 7068 TB:40.056
35/51 0:04 +1.18 62.Bb6 Kd7 63.Kg1 Nd4 64.Kf2 Nc2 65.Ke2 Kc6 66.Kd2 Nd4 67.Ke3 Nf5+ 68.Kf3 Nd4+ 69.Kg4 Nf5 (28.544.737) 7025 TB:60.309
36/55 0:11 +1.37 62.Bb6 Kd7 63.Kg1 Nd4 64.Kf2 Ke6 65.Ke3 Ke5 66.Bc7+ (104.308.515) 8806 TB:374.836
37/55 0:16 +1.39 62.Bb6 Kd7 63.Kg1 Nd4 64.Kf2 Kc6 65.Ke3 Nc2+ 66.Kd2 Nb4 67.Ke3 Nc2+ (187.065.221) 11013 TB:575.736
38/62 0:29 +1.60 62.Bb6 Kd7 63.Kg1 Nd4 64.Kf2 Nc2 65.Ke2 Kc6 66.Kd2 Nb4 67.Kc3 Nd5+ 68.Kd4 Nf4 69.Ba5 (380.358.224) 12691 TB:1.091.646
39/62 0:31 +1.60 62.Bb6 Kd7 63.Kg1 Nd4 64.Kf2 Nc2 65.Ke2 Kc6 66.Kd2 Nb4 67.Kc3 Nd5+ 68.Kd4 Nf4 69.Ba5 (401.693.648) 12834 TB:1.136.282
40/62 0:44 +1.63 62.Bb6 Kd7 63.Kg1 Nd4 64.Kf2 Ke6 65.Ke3 Ke5 66.Bc7+ (638.614.817) 14467 TB:1.625.283
41/62 1:12 +1.82 62.Bb6 Kd7 63.Kg1 Nd4 64.Kf2 Nc2 65.Ke2 Kc6 66.Kd2 Nb4 67.Kc3 Kb5 68.Kd4 (1.118.098.910) 15495 TB:3.056.916
42/62 1:33 +1.85 62.Bb6 Kd7 63.Kg1 Nd4 64.Kf2 Nc2 65.Ke2 Kc6 66.Kd2 Nd4 67.Ke3 (1.496.866.146) 16003 TB:3.784.772
43/62 2:22 +1.85 62.Bb6 Kd7 63.Kg1 Nd4 64.Kf2 Nc2 65.Ke2 Kc6 66.Kd2 Nb4 67.Kc3 Nd5+ 68.Kd4 (2.510.002.411) 17613 TB:5.664.958
44/62 4:04 +2.05 62.Bb6 Kd7 63.Kg1 Nd4 64.Kf2 Ke6 65.Ke3 Ke5 66.Bc7+ (4.271.279.241) 17461 TB:10.196.449
45/62 6:44 +2.08 62.Bb6 Kd7 63.Kg1 Nd4 64.Kf2 Nc2 65.Ke2 Kc6 66.Kd2 Nb4 67.Kc3 Kb5 68.Kd4 (7.180.649.896) 17730 TB:18.075.918
46/62 8:54 +2.27 62.Bb6 Kd7 63.Kg1 Nd4 64.Kf2 Nc2 65.Ke2 Kc6 66.Kd2 Nb4 67.Kc3 Kb5 68.Kd4 Nc2+ (9.397.478.177) 17574 TB:24.446.017
47/62 9:19 +2.27 62.Bb6 Kd7 63.Kg1 Nd4 64.Kf2 Nc2 65.Ke2 Kc6 66.Kd2 Nb4 67.Kc3 Kb5 68.Kd4 Nc2+ (9.811.528.721) 17541 TB:25.240.719
48/62 17:36 +2.49 62.Bb6 Kd7 63.Kg1 Nd4 64.Kf2 Ke6 65.Ke3 Ke5 66.Bc7+ (18.790.863.136) 17778 TB:50.774.418


Deep Rybka 4.1 SSE42 x64 (4096 MB)

24.00 0:00 +1.39 62.Bb6 Kd7 63.Kg1 Kc6 64.Kf2 Nd4 65.Ke3 Ne6 66.Kf3 Ng7 67.Kg4 Nf5 68.Bd8 Ne3+ 69.Kf3 Nf5 (615.639) 666 TB:90
25.00 0:01 +1.39 62.Bb6 Kd7 63.Kg1 Kc6 64.Kf2 Nd4 65.Ke3 Ne6 66.Kf3 Ng7 67.Kg4 Nf5 68.Bd8 Ne3+ 69.Kf3 Nf5 (816.940) 677 TB:151
26.01 0:02 +1.39 62.Bb6 Kd7 63.Kg1 Kc6 64.Kf2 Nd4 65.Ke3 Nf5+ 66.Kf3 Nd4+ 67.Kg4 Nf5 68.Bd8 Ne3+ 69.Kf3 Nf5 (1.537.668) 683 TB:404
27.01 0:02 +1.39 62.Bb6 Kd7 63.Kg1 Kc6 64.Kf2 Nd4 65.Ke3 Nf5+ 66.Kf3 Nd4+ 67.Kg4 Nf5 68.Bd8 Ne3+ 69.Kf3 Nf5 (2.097.375) 721 TB:605
28.01 0:05 +1.39 62.Bb6 Kd7 63.Kg1 Nd4 64.Kf2 Kc6 65.Ke3 Nf5+ 66.Kf4 Ng7 67.Kg5 Nf5 68.Ba5 Ne3 69.Kf4 Nd5+ (4.090.864) 774 TB:1.181
29.01 0:06 +1.49 62.Bb6 Kd7 63.Kg1 Nd4 64.Kf2 Ke6 65.Bd8 Kd5 66.Bxh4 Kxc5 67.Bd8 Kd5 68.Ke3 Nc2+ 69.Kf4 Nd4 (4.958.200) 787 TB:1.396
30.01 0:07 +1.49 62.Bb6 Kd7 63.Kg1 Nd4 64.Kf2 Ke6 65.Bd8 Kd5 66.Bxh4 Kxc5 67.Bd8 Kd5 68.Ke3 Nc2+ 69.Kf4 Nd4 (6.144.671) 792 TB:1.675
31.01 0:10 +1.49 62.Bb6 Kd7 63.Kg1 Nd4 64.Kf2 Ke6 65.Bd8 Kd5 66.Bxh4 Kxc5 67.Bd8 Kd5 68.Ke3 Nc2+ 69.Kf4 Nd4 (8.091.703) 806 TB:2.425
32.01 0:13 +1.49 62.Bb6 Kd7 63.Kg1 Nd4 64.Kf2 Ke6 65.Bd8 Kd5 66.Bxh4 Kxc5 67.Bd8 Kd5 68.Ke3 Nc2+ 69.Kf4 Nd4 (10.825.588) 817 TB:3.489
33.01 0:28 +1.61++ 62.Bb6 Kd7 63.Kg1 Nd4 64.Kf2 Ke6 65.Ke3 Ke5 66.Bd8 Kd5 67.Bg5 Kxc5 68.Ke4 Nf5 69.Ke5 Kc6 (24.749.854) 855 TB:9.450
33.01 0:48 +1.75 62.Bb6 Kd7 63.Kg1 Nd4 64.Kf2 Ke6 65.Ke3 Ke5 66.Bd8 Kd5 67.Bg5 Kxc5 68.Ke4 Nc6 69.Bxh4 Kd6 (40.792.478) 839 TB:16.701
34.01 1:05 +1.75 62.Bb6 Kd7 63.Kg1 Nd4 64.Kf2 Ke6 65.Ke3 Ke5 66.Bd8 Kd5 67.Bg5 Kxc5 68.Ke4 Nc6 69.Bxh4 Kd6 (55.420.784) 843 TB:23.419
35.01 1:21 +1.75 62.Bb6 Kd7 63.Kg1 Nd4 64.Kf2 Ke6 65.Ke3 Ke5 66.Bd8 Kd5 67.Bg5 Kxc5 68.Ke4 Nc6 69.Bxh4 Kd6 (68.152.674) 838 TB:32.030
36.01 1:55 +1.75 62.Bb6 Kd7 63.Kg1 Nd4 64.Kf2 Ke6 65.Ke3 Ke5 66.Bd8 Kd5 67.Bg5 Kxc5 68.Ke4 Nc6 69.Bxh4 Kd6 (89.153.540) 773 TB:43.071
36.01 2:24 +1.75 62.Bb6 Kd7 63.Kg1 Nd4 64.Kf2 Ke6 65.Ke3 Ke5 66.Bd8 Kd5 67.Bg5 Kxc5 68.Ke4 Nc6 69.Bxh4 Kd6 (105.542.451) 730 TB:43.071


[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2012.09.14"]
[Round "?"]
[White "?"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 a6 5. Nc3 Qc7 6. Be2
Nf6 7. O-O Bc5 8. Kh1 b5 9. f4 Bb7 10. Bf3 O-O 11. e5 Bxf3
12. Nxf3 Ng4 13. Ne4 Be7 14. Nfg5 f5 15. exf6 Nxf6 16. Qd3
g6 17. Qh3 h5 18. Nxf6+ Bxf6 19. Qd3 Kg7 20. Ne4 Nc6 21. c3
Be7 22. Be3 d5 23. Nd2 Rf5 24. Nf3 Bf6 25. a4 bxa4 26. Rxa4
a5 27. h3 h4 28. Bf2 Rh8 29. Re1 Kf7 30. Qd2 Qb8 31. Qe2
Qd6 32. Nh2 Bg7 33. Ng4 Qd7 34. Qd1 Rfh5 35. Rae4 Re8
36. R4e3 Rf5 37. Qa4 Rh5 38. R3e2 Qc7 39. Qb5 Qd7 40. Qd3
Qd6 41. b3 Qd7 42. c4 Re7 43. Rd2 Qd6 44. Rdd1 Rc7 45. Qf3
Kg8 46. Qe4 Ne7 47. c5 Qd7 48. Qxe6+ Qxe6 49. Rxe6 Kf7
50. Rd6 d4 51. Ne5+ Bxe5 52. fxe5 Rxe5 53. Bxd4 Re6 54. Bf2
Nf5 55. Rd7+ Rxd7 56. Rxd7+ Ke8 57. Rd1 Re2 58. Re1 Nd4
59. Rxe2+ Nxe2 60. Be1 Nd4 61. Bxa5 Nxb3 62. Bb6 Nd4
63. Kg1 Kd7 64. Kf2 Ke6 65. Ke3 Ke5 66. Bc7+ Kd5 *

styx
Posts: 338
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:59 pm
Location: Germany

Re: How Much Is Hiarcs 14 worth?

Post by styx » Sat Sep 15, 2012 2:10 am

this is odd. i tried it a second time. it is faster now. i always cleared the hash.

Code: Select all

FEN: 4k3/8/6p1/B1P5/7p/1n5P/6P1/7K w - - 0 62 

Houdini 1.5a x64:
  4/7	00:00	         322	0	+0,09	La5-b6 Ke8-d7 Kh1-h2 Kd7-c6
  4/7	00:00	         465	0	+0,27	La5-e1 Sb3xc5 Le1xh4 Ke8-f7 Kh1-h2
  5/9	00:00	         654	0	+0,30	La5-e1 Sb3xc5 Le1xh4 Ke8-f7 Kh1-h2 Kf7-e6
  6/14	00:00	         973	0	+0,34	La5-e1 Sb3xc5 Le1xh4 Ke8-f7 Kh1-h2 Kf7-e6 Lh4-e1
  7/15	00:00	       1.600	0	+0,36	La5-e1 Sb3xc5 Le1xh4 Ke8-f7 Kh1-h2 Kf7-e6 Kh2-g3 Ke6-f5
  8/15	00:00	       5.134	320.000	+0,32	La5-e1 Sb3xc5 Le1xh4 Sc5-e4 Kh1-h2 Ke8-d7 Lh4-e1 Kd7-e6 g2-g4
  9/15+	00:00	       7.951	496.000	+0,36	La5-e1
  9/15	00:00	       9.084	567.000	+0,38	La5-e1 Sb3xc5 Le1xh4 Sc5-e4 g2-g4 Ke8-d7 Lh4-e1 Kd7-e6 Kh1-g2 g6-g5
 10/18	00:00	      22.984	1.436.000	+0,40	La5
[...]
 30/57	01:26	 829.800.111	9.549.000	+0,64	La5-b6 Ke8-d7 Kh1-g1 Sb3-d4 Kg1-f2 Kd7-e6 Lb6-d8 Ke6-d5 Ld8xh4 Kd5xc5 Lh4-f6 Sd4-e6 h3-h4 Kc5-c6 Kf2-e3 Kc6-d5 Lf6-a1 Kd5-d6 La1-d4 Se6-d8 Ke3-e4 Sd8-f7 Ld4-e3 Kd6-e6 g2-g4 Sf7-e5 Ke4-f4 Se5-c4 Le3-g1 Sc4-e5 Lg1-d4 Se5-f7 Ld4-a1 Ke6-d7 Kf4-g3 Kd7-d6 La1-c3 Kd6-d5 Kg3-f4 Sf7-d6 Lc3-b2 Sd6-e4 Lb2-a1 Se4-d2 La1-c3 Sd2-e4 Lc3-b2 Se4-c5 Kf4-g5
houdini reaches ~ 9,5 mio nodes/s in this position on my computer. it's not that fast compared to up-to-date hardware.

*edit* my hardware: AMD Phenom(tm) II X4 945 Processor, 3015 MHz, 4 Core(s), 4 GB RAM, 512MB Hash

Hood
Posts: 652
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 11:52 am
Location: Polska, Warszawa

Re: How Much Is Hiarcs 14 worth?

Post by Hood » Sat Sep 15, 2012 12:36 pm

Experienced "correspondence player" is using more then 1 program.:) to analyse.

I think Houdini is one of the best ones but can not be used alone.

Rgds Hood
Polish National tragedy in Smoleńsk. President and all delegation murdered or killed.
Cui bono ?

There are not bugs free programs.
There are programs with undiscovered bugs.




Ashes to ashes dust to dust. Alleluia.

Hood
Posts: 652
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 11:52 am
Location: Polska, Warszawa

Re: How Much Is Hiarcs 14 worth?

Post by Hood » Sat Sep 15, 2012 12:45 pm

Sean Evans wrote:
It makes the point that the author wants absolute top dollar for a program with mediocre ability and he is to lazy to make it 64bits! My suggestion is send this guy a message, don't buy the software until the price comes down!!

Cordially,
Sent some $ to the author, may be he will make 64b compile for you. :)
Polish National tragedy in Smoleńsk. President and all delegation murdered or killed.
Cui bono ?

There are not bugs free programs.
There are programs with undiscovered bugs.




Ashes to ashes dust to dust. Alleluia.

Zagalo
Posts: 102
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:20 am

Re: How Much Is Hiarcs 14 worth?

Post by Zagalo » Sat Sep 15, 2012 2:18 pm

Could not vote because no option for a nickle , $ 0.05

User avatar
Eelco de Groot
Posts: 4148
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 1:40 am
Location: Groningen

Re: How Much Is Hiarcs 14 worth?

Post by Eelco de Groot » Sat Sep 15, 2012 2:25 pm

styx wrote:this is odd. i tried it a second time. it is faster now. i always cleared the hash.

Code: Select all

FEN: 4k3/8/6p1/B1P5/7p/1n5P/6P1/7K w - - 0 62 

Houdini 1.5a x64:
  4/7	00:00	         322	0	+0,09	La5-b6 Ke8-d7 Kh1-h2 Kd7-c6
  4/7	00:00	         465	0	+0,27	La5-e1 Sb3xc5 Le1xh4 Ke8-f7 Kh1-h2
  5/9	00:00	         654	0	+0,30	La5-e1 Sb3xc5 Le1xh4 Ke8-f7 Kh1-h2 Kf7-e6
  6/14	00:00	         973	0	+0,34	La5-e1 Sb3xc5 Le1xh4 Ke8-f7 Kh1-h2 Kf7-e6 Lh4-e1
  7/15	00:00	       1.600	0	+0,36	La5-e1 Sb3xc5 Le1xh4 Ke8-f7 Kh1-h2 Kf7-e6 Kh2-g3 Ke6-f5
  8/15	00:00	       5.134	320.000	+0,32	La5-e1 Sb3xc5 Le1xh4 Sc5-e4 Kh1-h2 Ke8-d7 Lh4-e1 Kd7-e6 g2-g4
  9/15+	00:00	       7.951	496.000	+0,36	La5-e1
  9/15	00:00	       9.084	567.000	+0,38	La5-e1 Sb3xc5 Le1xh4 Sc5-e4 g2-g4 Ke8-d7 Lh4-e1 Kd7-e6 Kh1-g2 g6-g5
 10/18	00:00	      22.984	1.436.000	+0,40	La5
[...]
 30/57	01:26	 829.800.111	9.549.000	+0,64	La5-b6 Ke8-d7 Kh1-g1 Sb3-d4 Kg1-f2 Kd7-e6 Lb6-d8 Ke6-d5 Ld8xh4 Kd5xc5 Lh4-f6 Sd4-e6 h3-h4 Kc5-c6 Kf2-e3 Kc6-d5 Lf6-a1 Kd5-d6 La1-d4 Se6-d8 Ke3-e4 Sd8-f7 Ld4-e3 Kd6-e6 g2-g4 Sf7-e5 Ke4-f4 Se5-c4 Le3-g1 Sc4-e5 Lg1-d4 Se5-f7 Ld4-a1 Ke6-d7 Kf4-g3 Kd7-d6 La1-c3 Kd6-d5 Kg3-f4 Sf7-d6 Lc3-b2 Sd6-e4 Lb2-a1 Se4-d2 La1-c3 Sd2-e4 Lc3-b2 Se4-c5 Kf4-g5
houdini reaches ~ 9,5 mio nodes/s in this position on my computer. it's not that fast compared to up-to-date hardware.

*edit* my hardware: AMD Phenom(tm) II X4 945 Processor, 3015 MHz, 4 Core(s), 4 GB RAM, 512MB Hash
If you use more than one thread, the results will not be the same each time. The engine is no longer 'deterministic'. Small variations in when a new thread is started or stopped, will introduce a random factor, this is normal for all SMP engines.

Rainbow Serpent also has a problem here, mainly because it gives higher bonuses to candidate passers than Stockfish does and at the same time penalties for passed pawns that are being attacked what Stockfish does not. Someone in the Chess Thinker's forum posted a MultiPV analysis of Stockfish and the two moves got identical evals, so it is a bit tricky for Stockfish too, seemingly.

Only at high depths (Multi PV = 2) it becomes more clear for Rainbow Serpent. I think 62. Be1 is only a draw.

The passed pawn on c5 will get a lower score mainly not so much because it is isolated but because Black's king seems better than White's, however the king can't really totally abandon White's pawns on the King side, so this deceptive. On the other hand (62. Be1 variation) after White takes the h4 pawn, the candidate passer looks strong but Black has a kind of fortress. If only one white pawn remains, Black has a knight and White a bishop, if Black exchanges the knight for the final pawn White can no longer win without pawns. On the King side now Black's king position is better (compared to the Bb5 variation), when he does not have to worry about the pawn on c5 anymore, because of opposition White's king can not capture the remaining black pawn outright, he can only exchange it for one of his own pawns but after that he can no longer win it.

4k3/8/6p1/B1P5/7p/1n5P/6P1/7K w - -

Engine: Rainbow Serpent 2.2.4 Build 174 (Q6700, 4 threads, 512 MB)
by Tord Romstad, Marco Costalba and Joona

48 105:48 +2.74 62.Bb6 Nd4 63.Kg1 Ne2+ 64.Kf2 Nd4
65.Ke3 Nf5+ 66.Kf4 Kd7 67.Ba5 Kc6
68.Kg5 Kxc5 69.Be1 Ne3 70.Bxh4 Nxg2
71.Bg3 Kd5 72.Kxg6 Ke4 73.Kg5 Kf3
74.Be5 Ke4 75.Bc7 (30.107.684.982) 4742

48 105:48 +2.01 62.Be1 Kd7 63.Bxh4 Nxc5 64.Kg1 Ne4
65.Kf1 Ke6 66.Bd8 Nd6 67.Bc7 Nf7
68.Ke2 g5 69.Kf3 Kf5 70.Ke3 Ke6
71.Ke4 Nh6 72.Be5 Nf5 73.Bc3 Nd6+
74.Kf3 Kf5 75.g4+ (30.107.684.982) 4742
___________________________________________________

49 123:33 +2.81 62.Bb6 Na1 63.c6 Nc2 64.Kg1 Nb4
65.Kf2 Nxc6 66.Bc5 Kd7 67.Ke2 Ne7
68.Be3 Nf5 (34.833.936.131) 4698

49 123:33 +2.01 62.Be1 Kd7 63.Bxh4 Nxc5 64.Kg1 Ne4
65.Kf1 Ke6 66.Bd8 Nd6 67.Bc7 Nf7
68.Ke2 g5 69.Kf3 Kf5 70.Ke3 Ke6
71.Ke4 Nh6 72.Be5 Nf5 73.Bc3 Nd6+
74.Kf3 Kf5 75.g4+ (34.833.936.131) 4698

Eelco
Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first
place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you
are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
-- Brian W. Kernighan

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