The Internet World Computer Chess Championship

[Sven]

1. Similarity tester. It ensures originality.

It ensures nothing but is a useful tool.

Originality regarding moves choices depends where a TD draws the line. The CSVN made a choice for 60% which is tolerant. 55% is safe. Below 50% would be nonsense as it (for instance) would make Doch 9.980 (with 51½%) a clone of Fruit.

I think those who have studied the issue have recognized its importance and my advice to Peter would be to have some private talks with people who have experience with the software. The first person to talk to would be Adam. Others are, Miguel, Sven, Marcel.

I have no idea why I appear on that list since in fact I do not have much (more exactly: I have no) experience with the similarity tester software at all

Sven

[Ajedrecista]

Hello Peter:

Since you mention 70% I am not sure if don't have it backwards. The higher the percentage of move similarity the more likely a derivative or a clone with only few changes. I suggest you have a look at the table with the dark red, red and orange colours, a sorted list of very likely clones and derivatives. That's what similarity tester can do for you.

http://www.top-5000.nl/clone.htm

As to your question, a 55% similarity is safe.

Then that number is what I will use to determine eligibility.

It depends on 'what is safe' and 'what not'. As Ed well explained, a higher percentage of move similarity means more possibilities of being a derivative, clone, etc. In this page (already posted by Ed), you will find three columns with standard deviations, percentage of matched moves and approximate odds that percentage of matched moves for pair is greater than the second column.

The third column is calculated by this formula: 2/{1 - erf[z/sqrt(2)]}, where z is the number of the first column and erf is the error function. I had calculated the numbers in the third column (rounding up to the nearest integer) with the great help of Derive 6, and I slightly differ from Adam's results; I also calculated these numbers up to z = 12 (I hope no typos):

Code: Select all

 z                          2/{1 - erf[z/sqrt(2)]}
--------------------------------------------------
 6                                   1,013,594,692
 7                                 781,364,430,891
 8                           1,607,468,795,310,696
 9                       8,860,626,201,053,673,385
10                 131,236,127,104,980,388,766,388
11           5,233,794,723,805,693,339,116,465,076
12     562,910,255,724,699,183,203,714,725,974,687

More numbers of the third column are easy to calculate for z > 12 but they are too big; 45.16 + 12*2.86 = 79.48 is a big enough percentage of matched moves IMHO, from my unexperienced POV.

If I call z_x = (x - 45.16)/2.86 then:

Code: Select all

z_50 =  22/13;  2/{1 - erf[z_50/sqrt(2)]} ~        22.08
z_55 = 492/143; 2/{1 - erf[z_55/sqrt(2)]} ~     3,445.23
z_60 = 742/143; 2/{1 - erf[z_60/sqrt(2)]} ~ 9,449,971.46

If I want to find x (or z_x) for an arbitrary number of one million:

Code: Select all

2/{1 - erf[z_x/sqrt(2)]} = 1,000,000
z_x ~ 4.7534; x = 45.16 + z_x*2.86 ~ 58.75%

I hope that this info will help you. I wish you good luck with your choice.

Regards from Spain.

Ajedrecista.

[Rebel]

I have no idea why I appear on that list since in fact I do not have much (more exactly: I have no) experience with the similarity tester software at all

Oh boy

[gleperlier]

That could certainly be arranged. The $50 Amateur fee seems best applied here.

Hello,

So I paid 50$ and registered Chessmaster XI

Cheers,

Gab

And it is reflected on the CCT website

Peter[/quote]

Thanks !



Gab

[gleperlier]

Hello,

What are the news ?

Cheers,

Gab

[Don]

I have not seen the results from the recent poll you posted, but IIRC last time a similar question was raised, it was close to a 50-50 split.

--Jon

And I have no doubt it will be the same. It is a really divisive issue.

Peter

The poll was not based on program author opinions and they are the ones actually invited to compete.

[Don]

I've set the date for the first stage of the IWCCC to September 29 - 30, 2012.

I have confirmed with HGM that his server will be available for those dates, so we are officially under way.

Registration is open as of now. www.cctchess.com

If there is anything in the rules to be debated, now it the time to do it. Rybka and Houdini will be allowed to participate (if they choose to) as I previously stated that this rule will even carry over to the CCT events. _This will not change_.

It's time this community moved forward and concentrated on chess and not the politics involved. I for one will no longer be playing that game; instead I will be concentrating on organizing the best possible events will the highest amount of participation which is what I feel everyone wants.

You are between a rock and a hard place Peter. Saying that you are moving on is not moving on, it's just taking a stand on one side or the other and pretending that now it's settled. You have basically given in to the pressure instead of sticking with your own principles which you obviously still believe in.

I don't have any bad feelings about this or you - but I am simply going to recognize what I believe to be the ICGA's authority in this. As you say we cannot continue to be divided on this issue but you choose a course that splits from the ICGA decision. So now the program authors have to like it and they have to pay money to like it. Or they can simple decline to play. I expect to see the day where I will be competing against an illegal copy of Komodo and I'm disappointed that you now blazing the trail which will legitimize this.

This happened in Chess too when Kasparov organized against FIDE. It was not good for chess and for a while we had 2 world champions and chaos.

One last thing - it really stinks that Komodo might play in some tournament where Houdini and Rybka are not allowed. I realize that. It's like living in their shadow because people think, "yes but Houdini wasn't there ....." But principles are lot more important and everyone knows just about exactly where all the top program stand anyway, it's no secret and these contests do not come close to determining that. These high profile events should be a showcase of ethics, not a lowering of ethical standards.

I know that you don't want to hear this and that you made your "stubborn" statement about how it won't change and that you are sick of being criticized. Well that is too bad, I have just as much right to have my say too.

Like you I am not going to add anything to this thread. I'm sure I will be criticized (like you were) and people will say that I just want to assassinate the top programs so that I can win. I will not respond to those people since these would be unfounded attacks that do not reflect how I feel and I'm not concerned with pleasing these people. A long time ago I got over the desire to please everyone - if you focus on being a person of integrity you will please the people that count the most and that is what counts.

I will also no longer be arguing with Robert Houdart. It is pointless and not productive.

No truer words were ever spoken ....

Peter

[Harvey Williamson]

I've set the date for the first stage of the IWCCC to September 29 - 30, 2012.

I have confirmed with HGM that his server will be available for those dates, so we are officially under way.

Registration is open as of now. www.cctchess.com

If there is anything in the rules to be debated, now it the time to do it. Rybka and Houdini will be allowed to participate (if they choose to) as I previously stated that this rule will even carry over to the CCT events. _This will not change_.

It's time this community moved forward and concentrated on chess and not the politics involved. I for one will no longer be playing that game; instead I will be concentrating on organizing the best possible events will the highest amount of participation which is what I feel everyone wants.

You are between a rock and a hard place Peter. Saying that you are moving on is not moving on, it's just taking a stand on one side or the other and pretending that now it's settled. You have basically given in to the pressure instead of sticking with your own principles which you obviously still believe in.

I don't have any bad feelings about this or you - but I am simply going to recognize what I believe to be the ICGA's authority in this. As you say we cannot continue to be divided on this issue but you choose a course that splits from the ICGA decision. So now the program authors have to like it and they have to pay money to like it. Or they can simple decline to play. I expect to see the day where I will be competing against an illegal copy of Komodo and I'm disappointed that you now blazing the trail which will legitimize this.

This happened in Chess too when Kasparov organized against FIDE. It was not good for chess and for a while we had 2 world champions and chaos.

One last thing - it really stinks that Komodo might play in some tournament where Houdini and Rybka are not allowed. I realize that. It's like living in their shadow because people think, "yes but Houdini wasn't there ....." But principles are lot more important and everyone knows just about exactly where all the top program stand anyway, it's no secret and these contests do not come close to determining that. These high profile events should be a showcase of ethics, not a lowering of ethical standards.

I know that you don't want to hear this and that you made your "stubborn" statement about how it won't change and that you are sick of being criticized. Well that is too bad, I have just as much right to have my say too.

Like you I am not going to add anything to this thread. I'm sure I will be criticized (like you were) and people will say that I just want to assassinate the top programs so that I can win. I will not respond to those people since these would be unfounded attacks that do not reflect how I feel and I'm not concerned with pleasing these people. A long time ago I got over the desire to please everyone - if you focus on being a person of integrity you will please the people that count the most and that is what counts.

I will also no longer be arguing with Robert Houdart. It is pointless and not productive.

No truer words were ever spoken ....

Peter

I completely agree with Don here.

[bob]

I've set the date for the first stage of the IWCCC to September 29 - 30, 2012.

I have confirmed with HGM that his server will be available for those dates, so we are officially under way.

Registration is open as of now. www.cctchess.com

If there is anything in the rules to be debated, now it the time to do it. Rybka and Houdini will be allowed to participate (if they choose to) as I previously stated that this rule will even carry over to the CCT events. _This will not change_.

It's time this community moved forward and concentrated on chess and not the politics involved. I for one will no longer be playing that game; instead I will be concentrating on organizing the best possible events will the highest amount of participation which is what I feel everyone wants.

You are between a rock and a hard place Peter. Saying that you are moving on is not moving on, it's just taking a stand on one side or the other and pretending that now it's settled. You have basically given in to the pressure instead of sticking with your own principles which you obviously still believe in.

I don't have any bad feelings about this or you - but I am simply going to recognize what I believe to be the ICGA's authority in this. As you say we cannot continue to be divided on this issue but you choose a course that splits from the ICGA decision. So now the program authors have to like it and they have to pay money to like it. Or they can simple decline to play. I expect to see the day where I will be competing against an illegal copy of Komodo and I'm disappointed that you now blazing the trail which will legitimize this.

This happened in Chess too when Kasparov organized against FIDE. It was not good for chess and for a while we had 2 world champions and chaos.

One last thing - it really stinks that Komodo might play in some tournament where Houdini and Rybka are not allowed. I realize that. It's like living in their shadow because people think, "yes but Houdini wasn't there ....." But principles are lot more important and everyone knows just about exactly where all the top program stand anyway, it's no secret and these contests do not come close to determining that. These high profile events should be a showcase of ethics, not a lowering of ethical standards.

I know that you don't want to hear this and that you made your "stubborn" statement about how it won't change and that you are sick of being criticized. Well that is too bad, I have just as much right to have my say too.

Like you I am not going to add anything to this thread. I'm sure I will be criticized (like you were) and people will say that I just want to assassinate the top programs so that I can win. I will not respond to those people since these would be unfounded attacks that do not reflect how I feel and I'm not concerned with pleasing these people. A long time ago I got over the desire to please everyone - if you focus on being a person of integrity you will please the people that count the most and that is what counts.

I will also no longer be arguing with Robert Houdart. It is pointless and not productive.

No truer words were ever spoken ....

Peter

I completely agree with Don here.

Me too. Caving in to the derivative authors makes little sense to me either. Either side of the argument has its supporters and detractors.

[Peter Skinner]

You are between a rock and a hard place Peter. Saying that you are moving on is not moving on, it's just taking a stand on one side or the other and pretending that now it's settled. You have basically given in to the pressure instead of sticking with your own principles which you obviously still believe in.

Here is the issue Don:

1. There are many programmers who simply won't play in the CCT events DUE to Houdini and Rybka not being allowed. You can't possibly imagine the flack I have taken in recent years on ICC/FICS/CCC/Email/MSN/Facebook for being part of the panel that found Rybka guilty. Some hold that against me.

2. There are programmers who will play as long as I exclude this or that program. In a way I feel like they are simply wanting to stack the deck in their favor.

I don't have any bad feelings about this or you - but I am simply going to recognize what I believe to be the ICGA's authority in this. As you say we cannot continue to be divided on this issue but you choose a course that splits from the ICGA decision. So now the program authors have to like it and they have to pay money to like it. Or they can simple decline to play. I expect to see the day where I will be competing against an illegal copy of Komodo and I'm disappointed that you now blazing the trail which will legitimize this.

There are programmers who publicly state they wish for Rybka to return to active play, but then tell me privately they won't enter my events if it does participate.

If I go one way I piss off certain programmers, and if I go another I piss off another group. Then there are the fans of the sport who just want to see the strongest entity play regardless of breaches.

How do I win? Hell.. how do I even draw in that situation?

This happened in Chess too when Kasparov organized against FIDE. It was not good for chess and for a while we had 2 world champions and chaos.

I completely agree.

One last thing - it really stinks that Komodo might play in some tournament where Houdini and Rybka are not allowed. I realize that. It's like living in their shadow because people think, "yes but Houdini wasn't there ....." But principles are lot more important and everyone knows just about exactly where all the top program stand anyway, it's no secret and these contests do not come close to determining that. These high profile events should be a showcase of ethics, not a lowering of ethical standards.

The IWCCC is purely a "fan/Internet" event. Letting anyone participate with anything. Think of it as a fan expo. The title just means whoever wins will be the Internet World Chess Champion. Nothing more. They simply brought the best program/hardware/book they could find and compete with it. A battle of setups in essence.

Getting authors to participate would be great because they could talk about the sport, their programs, goals.. like a true fan expo.

I know that you don't want to hear this and that you made your "stubborn" statement about how it won't change and that you are sick of being criticized. Well that is too bad, I have just as much right to have my say too.

Of course you do, and I am not trying to divide the sport. I am trying to bring awareness to it.

Like you I am not going to add anything to this thread. I'm sure I will be criticized (like you were) and people will say that I just want to assassinate the top programs so that I can win. I will not respond to those people since these would be unfounded attacks that do not reflect how I feel and I'm not concerned with pleasing these people. A long time ago I got over the desire to please everyone - if you focus on being a person of integrity you will please the people that count the most and that is what counts.

People can say what they want Don. You have _never_ spoken to me privately and stated you wouldn't participate if this or that program were to enter. During the last CCT, when your team was asked for code, you promptly complied without complaining. You and your team have always shown the best possible sportsmanship when playing, and playing within the confines of the rules.

So people can criticize all they want. No one can dispute your fairness and dedication to the sport.