Proposing: The REAL World Computer Chess Championship

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

Moderators: hgm, Rebel, chrisw

As a PARTICIPANT, would you allow Houdini and Rybka to participate?

Poll ended at Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:22 am

Yes
40
61%
No
14
21%
Only Houdini
5
8%
Only Rybka
7
11%
 
Total votes: 66

User avatar
Dan Honeycutt
Posts: 5258
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:31 pm
Location: Atlanta, Georgia

Re: Proposing: The REAL World Computer Chess Championship

Post by Dan Honeycutt »

hgm wrote:Indeed, that would be a good system, and I proposed it once before. Some authors were very shocked by this, however. I never saw the logic of 'authors only'.

But this would not be legal for some programs, as the license agreement could forbid it. I don't know about Houdini, of course, but I am sure you could not enter Crafty, in case Bob would not enter it himself. GPLed programs would not be a problem, of course.
So you can enter Crafty in your own tournament (like Graham's for example) but not someone else's? Is that because there is prize money involved?

Best
Dan H.
kinderchocolate
Posts: 454
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 6:55 am
Full name: Ted Wong

Re: Proposing: The REAL World Computer Chess Championship

Post by kinderchocolate »

This is a waste of time. You don't have money, you don't have a sponsor, you don't even have a set of rules for the tournament. Peter Skinner, there must be something else that you can do, time is precious.
User avatar
Harvey Williamson
Posts: 2010
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 11:12 pm
Location: Whitchurch. Shropshire, UK.
Full name: Harvey Williamson

Re: Proposing: The REAL World Computer Chess Championship

Post by Harvey Williamson »

Peter Skinner wrote: So send me your address and I will send you the processor, the t-shirt, and the Blue Rodeo music CD AMD provided. As I said I still have everything.

.
I have sent you my address again I look forward to receiving the prize.
wgarvin
Posts: 838
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 5:03 pm
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Re: Proposing: The REAL World Computer Chess Championship

Post by wgarvin »

hgm wrote:Indeed, that would be a good system, and I proposed it once before. Some authors were very shocked by this, however. I never saw the logic of 'authors only'.

But this would not be legal for some programs, as the license agreement could forbid it. I don't know about Houdini, of course, but I am sure you could not enter Crafty, in case Bob would not enter it himself. GPLed programs would not be a problem, of course.
I guess what it boils down to is, is it a competition among programs to determine which is the strongest program? Or a competition among programmers to determine which of them managed to create the strongest program.

My view of the WCCC is that it has always been a competition between programmers, and rule 2 is intended to keep plagarists and cloners from usurping the hard work of the honest authors who write original programs. I'm not sure why anyone would find a competition between a bunch of strong chess engines interesting in this day and age. A competition between the programmers of strong, original engines is much more interesting--and those programmers deserve the recognition of their peers for creating world-class original programs, and the WCCC is one way to deliver that recognition.

But hey, if you just want to play a bunch of programs against each other, then who cares who authored them, or if they are original or just slightly-modified clones of other programs in the same tournament? For that matter, what difference does it make who enters them in the tournament, or who operates them. (Besides, don't we already have rating lists to play engines against each other and report which ones are best? So why bother running such a tournament?)
User avatar
gleperlier
Posts: 1033
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2012 10:03 pm

Re: Proposing: The REAL World Computer Chess Championship

Post by gleperlier »

wgarvin wrote:
hgm wrote: (Besides, don't we already have rating lists to play engines against each other and report which ones are best? So why bother running such a tournament?)
Because a tournament is not a rating list, because in one game, many engines can draw or win versus a stronger one, because of book preparation, because of hardware, because of the thrill of participating, because of the fun to play old chess engine even for 50$.

:D
Richard Allbert
Posts: 792
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:58 am

Re: Proposing: The REAL World Computer Chess Championship

Post by Richard Allbert »

Hi Peter,

I appreciate what you're trying to do, but to be fair, R Houdart has written many times that he has no interest in Houdini participating.

I wouldn't imagine the Rybka author has an interest either.

So what's the point in the poll? To generate a "Houdini banned by vote" headline?

Otherwise good luck ;)
User avatar
Rolf
Posts: 6081
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 11:14 pm
Location: Munster, Nuremberg, Princeton

Re: Proposing: The REAL World Computer Chess Championship

Post by Rolf »

wgarvin wrote:
My view of the WCCC is that it has always been a competition between programmers, and rule 2 is intended to keep plagarists and cloners from usurping the hard work of the honest authors who write original programs. I'm not sure why anyone would find a competition between a bunch of strong chess engines interesting in this day and age. A competition between the programmers of strong, original engines is much more interesting--and those programmers deserve the recognition of their peers for creating world-class original programs, and the WCCC is one way to deliver that recognition.
In due respect for your personal opinion please allow me to demonstrate where your logical error is hiding in the above. BTW it's a very typical fallacy of the human mind and it occured basically in the whole history of mankind. The vieww you stated is not wrong if you are focussing on your own position with its views and at the same moment exclude any thoughts that considered - well - your personal position. Here we are easily understanding that your claim of any existing entities called "honest programmers" isnt yet proven at all. Nobody has seen or known such honest programmers.

This is also why critics of the horrible mistake verdict of the ICGA organization (that isnt registered anywhere on this planet) are angry against such impostering thoughts that a "bunch" [your term] of "honest" programmers or authors could have fantasized a confrontation against plagiarists and cloners, in special because it isnt exaamined or proven where the allegedly "honest" authors are.

In short: How could dubious entities declare war against allegedly wrongdoing entities if their own status isnt checked deep enough?

Especially in computerchess such a can of worms shouldnt be opened because it has a tradition as long as the field itself that newer authors have loaned and taken and had been inspired by the results of their ancestors or whatever older forerunners.

This is very important especially in professional or commercial computerchess because that is not identical with academical rules of science.I think that winning a Nobel Prize is a bit comparable to winning the title of World Champion in computerchess because it neither proves beyond doubt that such a performance is the singular success for a singular human being on this earth.

Even my good old Einstein isnt completelyx watertight for originality since some remarkable partds of his earlier works allegedly came from his wife! But I digress.

Fact is that the lackmus test in ICGA originality isnt existing at all.

Fact is that right now we only have revelations of alleged errors of programmers in computerchess, but not a single program else has been attributed the gold medal of full or total originality in computerchess. Guess why? Becasuse there is no such thing that anybody on this planet could prove.

Even Crafty isnt totally original! Period. :lol:
-Popper and Lakatos are good but I'm stuck on Leibowitz
Peter Berger
Posts: 653
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:56 pm

Re: Proposing: The REAL World Computer Chess Championship

Post by Peter Berger »

This discussion about engine originality has been going on for years now with no acceptable decision and solution found.

I liked a little thing Chris Whittington posted in one of the more technical threads a few days ago ( quote from memory): „Let's keep this discussion slow, so that the lays can follow. Ultimately it's them who decide.“
Of course I am aware of the irony here ;), but actually he is absolutely right about this in my opinion.

In the meantime the ICGA tournaments have lost all the credibility they used to have with the chess public in the past. Why? Because of the „known“ clones? If yes, then only in a very roundabout way.
The main problem is that everyone can just download some free engine from the Internet that's most probably stronger than any „world champion“ according to the ICGA.
If you read „New in Chess“ e.g. all the top grandmasters use Houdini or Stockfish for their game comments, and it is obvious that they couldn't care less about the clone discussions or who the world champion is – they care about the quality of the chess analysis they get.

If there was like one or two obvious offenders only - and everony else was absolutely „clean“, you could explain this to the people easily and make them care. E.g. people grudgingly accepted that Ben Johnson was no olympic champion in the 100 meters run as he was doped and you could make them believe the others weren't.

In a similar way you could easily explain to people the case of Gunda ( someone just changing the name of the engine and some strings and claiming it to be his own).

And if someone just blindly copied something relevant verbatim in a most obvious way and this was still kind of unsual in the competitive environment, you can get people to accept that this is cheating.

But the current reality in computerchess land is different. All the „original“ authors seem to cheat too ( at least if you look at it from a layman's point of view). It would be most easy to dig up zillions of messages here of „original“ authors who discuss reverse engineering other engines to find ideas they can implement in their own engines . Some – like the Komodo author – even make progress reports how some idea of someone else kind of works for him and some others don't.

The current situation in computerchess land is basically like the Tour de France IMHO. Everyone knows that like everybody else is doped – and that the only thing that matters is that some cyclist doesn't get caught for him to have a chance to be competitive.
So people stopped to care about the Tour de France.

If you wanted to still have a programmer competition to be credible to the public, you'd probably have to make it „Open Source“with loads of code checks only This might at least work for some time ( it won't work in the long run though - as the ideas happen to be out there).

Or you stop demanding originality ( you will still want to keep some basic rules even the , to avoid too blatant cases of copying but you lower the current demands for „original programs“).
But if say Junior became world champion beating Houdini and Rybka in the tournament, the chess public would care.
It won't if Junior beats Crafty to become world champion.

I see no possibility to work around this problem, as if nothing had happened.

Peter
User avatar
gleperlier
Posts: 1033
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2012 10:03 pm

Re: Proposing: The REAL World Computer Chess Championship

Post by gleperlier »

Peter Berger wrote:This discussion about engine originality has been going on for years now with no acceptable decision and solution found.

I liked a little thing Chris Whittington posted in one of the more technical threads a few days ago ( quote from memory): „Let's keep this discussion slow, so that the lays can follow. Ultimately it's them who decide.“
Of course I am aware of the irony here ;), but actually he is absolutely right about this in my opinion.

In the meantime the ICGA tournaments have lost all the credibility they used to have with the chess public in the past. Why? Because of the „known“ clones? If yes, then only in a very roundabout way.
The main problem is that everyone can just download some free engine from the Internet that's most probably stronger than any „world champion“ according to the ICGA.
If you read „New in Chess“ e.g. all the top grandmasters use Houdini or Stockfish for their game comments, and it is obvious that they couldn't care less about the clone discussions or who the world champion is – they care about the quality of the chess analysis they get.

If there was like one or two obvious offenders only - and everony else was absolutely „clean“, you could explain this to the people easily and make them care. E.g. people grudgingly accepted that Ben Johnson was no olympic champion in the 100 meters run as he was doped and you could make them believe the others weren't.

In a similar way you could easily explain to people the case of Gunda ( someone just changing the name of the engine and some strings and claiming it to be his own).

And if someone just blindly copied something relevant verbatim in a most obvious way and this was still kind of unsual in the competitive environment, you can get people to accept that this is cheating.

But the current reality in computerchess land is different. All the „original“ authors seem to cheat too ( at least if you look at it from a layman's point of view). It would be most easy to dig up zillions of messages here of „original“ authors who discuss reverse engineering other engines to find ideas they can implement in their own engines . Some – like the Komodo author – even make progress reports how some idea of someone else kind of works for him and some others don't.

The current situation in computerchess land is basically like the Tour de France IMHO. Everyone knows that like everybody else is doped – and that the only thing that matters is that some cyclist doesn't get caught for him to have a chance to be competitive.
So people stopped to care about the Tour de France.

If you wanted to still have a programmer competition to be credible to the public, you'd probably have to make it „Open Source“with loads of code checks only This might at least work for some time ( it won't work in the long run though - as the ideas happen to be out there).

Or you stop demanding originality ( you will still want to keep some basic rules even the , to avoid too blatant cases of copying but you lower the current demands for „original programs“).
But if say Junior became world champion beating Houdini and Rybka in the tournament, the chess public would care.
It won't if Junior beats Crafty to become world champion.

I see no possibility to work around this problem, as if nothing had happened.

Peter
+1
User avatar
hgm
Posts: 27790
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 10:06 am
Location: Amsterdam
Full name: H G Muller

Re: Proposing: The REAL World Computer Chess Championship

Post by hgm »

I am not sure the public ever cared about the WCCC. Perhaps in some relatively short time windows. initially, computers were much to weak for people to care. Later World champions involved machines people would not be able to afford. So why would they care? When there was a separate championship for micros it was probably interesting for a while. Deep Blue got some interest because it beat Kasparov. Not because it became World champion.

When PC programs reached the top again, and now were of GM strength, interest returned. (Mainly in the sense that they might care if a program in the shop had 'World Champion' stamped over it; I am not sure whether there were really many people that actually watched the WCCC.)

Future World Champions could be clusters or computer clouds. I am not sure if many people would consider them very relevant.