How about we settle the WCCC argument?

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rodolfoleoni
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Re: How about we settle the WCCC argument?

Post by rodolfoleoni » Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:59 am

While I whish this tourney to be funny and successful, I try to interprete what programmers of weaker engines would think about it. What'd be their interest to play against 20 Houdinis, 20 Critters, 20 Komodos, 20 Ivanhoes.....

:?:
Rodolfo (The Baron Team)

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hgm
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Re: How about we settle the WCCC argument?

Post by hgm » Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:00 pm

I can only answer that for myself, and the answer is: none whatsoever.

For one, I would never enter in a tourney with prize money that was extracted from the participants. Even if I would have equal chances of winning as everbody else, it would not be better than a lottery. And a pretty unattractive lottery at that, because half of the money is skimmed by the organizers.

But of course I would not have equal chances to win. I would not even be interested to play in it with my own Houdini copy, because I don't have above-average hardware, and I would need to have at least double the average chances to break statistically even. And it is very unwise to participate in gambles where you on average only break even: it will bankrupt you for sure!

If participation was free, I might consider entering Joker and micro-Max no matter how many Houdini opponents there are. But I am not going to subsidize their prize, and neither am I going to subsidize ICC, as I don't charge people for using my ICS either!

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Houdini
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Re: How about we settle the WCCC argument?

Post by Houdini » Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:29 pm

hgm wrote:I can only answer that for myself, and the answer is: none whatsoever.
Of course, *nobody* wants to see a tournament with 20 Houdini's.
As long as the debate is presented as a choice between two undesirable extremes - the "ICGA" approach and the "Skinner" approach - nothing useful will come out of all this.

It is interesting to note the intellectual dishonesty of the "ICGA clan" (say, Hyatt, Skinner and Dailey) to pretend as if this new proposal is the only possible alternative for the outdated ICGA tournament.
As if no other more intelligent, more interesting and more modern tournament formula is possible or imaginable...

Robert

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hgm
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Re: How about we settle the WCCC argument?

Post by hgm » Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:38 pm

I take it you will not be registering for this one, then? You will make dozens of bot operators so happy! :lol:

But feel free to organize a tournament in the format you prefer. If you need an internet erver, mine is available. (For free! 8-) )

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Peter Skinner
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Re: How about we settle the WCCC argument?

Post by Peter Skinner » Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:46 pm

hgm wrote:I take it you will not be registering for this one, then? You will make dozens of bot operators so happy! :lol:

But feel free to organize a tournament in the format you prefer. If you need an internet erver, mine is available. (For free! 8-) )
If you would rather I move the tournament to your server to remove the fees associated with ICC and getting a GM commentator, I will happily do it.

I was under the impression that your server had issues with mass kibitzing (That could have been FICS.. I'm not quite sure) or some other issue.

Or even better, I will cancel my event and you can organize it as a free event for everyone. Doesn't matter to me. I would still be a spectator :)

Peter
I got kicked out of Chapters because I moved all the Bible's to the fiction section.

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Peter Skinner
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Re: How about we settle the WCCC argument?

Post by Peter Skinner » Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:49 pm

Houdini wrote:
hgm wrote:I can only answer that for myself, and the answer is: none whatsoever.
Of course, *nobody* wants to see a tournament with 20 Houdini's.
As long as the debate is presented as a choice between two undesirable extremes - the "ICGA" approach and the "Skinner" approach - nothing useful will come out of all this.

It is interesting to note the intellectual dishonesty of the "ICGA clan" (say, Hyatt, Skinner and Dailey) to pretend as if this new proposal is the only possible alternative for the outdated ICGA tournament.
As if no other more intelligent, more interesting and more modern tournament formula is possible or imaginable...

Robert
I am not part of any "clan". Nor do I think this is the only alternative. I just proposed something; if you don't like the format, then suggest some rule changes.

When have I not been open to rule changes? Did I not put it to the participants before CCT 14 to allow Rybka to participate? Of course, and it was rejected by them, not me.

Instead of bitching about the format, suggest things to alter it to _everyone's_ liking. Nothing is ever set in stone...

Peter
I got kicked out of Chapters because I moved all the Bible's to the fiction section.

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hgm
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Re: How about we settle the WCCC argument?

Post by hgm » Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:09 pm

Peter Skinner wrote:I was under the impression that your server had issues with mass kibitzing (That could have been FICS.. I'm not quite sure) or some other issue.
That was FICS, not mine.

But it was not my intention to compete with your tourney. I was just offering it to Robert, in case he wants to organize something that would require one.

bob
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Re: How about we settle the WCCC argument?

Post by bob » Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:39 pm

chrisw wrote:
geots wrote:
Harvey Williamson wrote:
Peter Skinner wrote:
Harvey Williamson wrote: Peter it would never have been posted here if you had not alluded to what i said in the post i replied to.
Then Harvey, post the entire conversation.

You stated that my signature on the Hiarcs Forum was now misleading:

Peter Skinner
Kikrtech.com
Authors Against Piracy

Did I not state that I still remove links on file sharing sites for Hiarcs, Shredder, Junior, Fritz and other programs? Did you also not state that Hiarcs would likely never enter one of my events again over running this type of tournament?

Just post the entire conversation with my permission so this can be cleared up. I am more than willing to admit to _anything_ I have said.

Peter
btw i can reactivate your a/c whenever you want nothing is deleted.

1st one and your reply:
Peter Skinner wrote:
Harvey Williamson wrote:Sorry Peter I am not going to allow you to advertise this tournament here. I doubt Hiarcs will ever play in 1 of your events again. Your signature now seems a little strange:
Peter Skinner
http://www.kikrtech.com
Authors Against Piracy
But I guess you might make some money out of it.

Best Wishes,
Harvey
The whole point of the tournament is to prove how utterly useless it is, and what a waste of time it will be. Nothing more.

The reason the ICGA has good tournament rules (And I try to follow the same rules with the CCT) is because it weeds out the crap.

I'm out to prove that with 90 derivatives entering, it will become what everyone bitches about. A hardware/book war. Nothing more.

Peter
You then sent this before i replied to you:
Sorry, I just realized there was a second part of the message.

How exactly is allowing someone to play with an engine that is freely available on the internet supporting piracy?

And I'm sorry to hear that Hiarcs won't be participating in the CCT's anymore. I will remove you guys from my invitation list.

Peter
Then my reply and yours:
Peter Skinner wrote:
Harvey Williamson wrote: I did not realise that engines available on the net by definition could not be pirated.

strange definition you have.
What I meant was engines like Houdini, Robbolitto, Ippolit... they are freely available. Same as Crafty, Arasan...

I was not talking about engines like Hiarcs, Shredder, Fritz, Junior.. all of which I still remove links for almost daily.

Surely if someone purchases an engine, they should be able to enter it in to a fun event like this.

Jesus Harvey, this event was trying to prove a point. You seem to take it quite personally.

If you don't want me to advertise it here, that is fine. This is your board, but to suddenly accuse me of supporting piracy goes too far.

Just delete my account from here. I won't both posting here again about any event.

Peter
Then the final ones
Peter Skinner wrote:
Harvey Williamson wrote: ok hope you make some money out of your mad event.
If all you see it as is a cash grab, then you miss the point of it entirely.

Good luck with Hiarcs Harvey. This is likely the last time we will speak.

Peter


Pete's comment made me stop and think. Please check- and if my Hiarcs Forum membership is still open and valid- I would like it closed out. Tho in my mind it has long been shut down- I think it best to make it official.

george
PR expert Harvey destroys HIARCS
PR expert Hyatt destroys ICGA

Hint to commercial computer chess entities, stop relying on idiots, do your own PR or shut up might be better policy.
Just because something is dead "in your mind" does not mean it is dead everywhere else... Exactly the opposite, in fact...

bob
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Re: How about we settle the WCCC argument?

Post by bob » Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:42 pm

Houdini wrote:
hgm wrote:I can only answer that for myself, and the answer is: none whatsoever.
Of course, *nobody* wants to see a tournament with 20 Houdini's.
As long as the debate is presented as a choice between two undesirable extremes - the "ICGA" approach and the "Skinner" approach - nothing useful will come out of all this.

It is interesting to note the intellectual dishonesty of the "ICGA clan" (say, Hyatt, Skinner and Dailey) to pretend as if this new proposal is the only possible alternative for the outdated ICGA tournament.
As if no other more intelligent, more interesting and more modern tournament formula is possible or imaginable...

Robert
The only dishonesty shown here is yours. You have not found a single post by me supporting this "anything-goes" event. If people want to participate, they are free to do so. I will not, myself, for rather obvious reasons previously stated...

I think the past tournament rules have worked just fine, myself...

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Harvey Williamson
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Re: How about we settle the WCCC argument?

Post by Harvey Williamson » Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:59 pm

Peter Skinner wrote: Did I not put it to the participants before CCT 14 to allow Rybka to participate?
Peter
yes you did which was really odd as a few months before that when the ICGA produced its report you revoked all Rybka's CCT titles.

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