World Computer Chess Championship ?

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Dan Honeycutt
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Re: World Computer Chess Championship ?

Post by Dan Honeycutt » Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:01 pm

mcostalba wrote:Uri, there are 15 (!) engines between the world champion (!) and the top:
Of those 15 are any other than Rybka not allowed to compete? I recall Robert saying he didn't compete due to the time and resources required. To better the participation maybe the format warrants some discussion.

Best
Dan H.

Carotino
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Re: World Computer Chess Championship ?

Post by Carotino » Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:11 pm

I believe that many people are using the word "clone" too lightly, perhaps without understanding their meaning, or perhaps for self-interest. But no matter, everything useless, you have to act.

I have in mind a series of tournaments and events, a kind of World Cup where participants accumulate points for the final ranking. With rules simple and clear.
The tournaments will take place on the net, and everyone can watch live matches. Recent tournaments organized by Graham Banks have been spectacular, fun and engaging. But something was missing: the human intervention, custom openings books, free hardware. All this would make the outcome of the meetings less predictable than you think ... And even more interesting and fun!

Not much is required to organize such events, and everyone can participate without leaving his house, including the spectators. I guess even a TV-style thing, with the "hot comments" of experts and masters. Science fiction?

I believe that when faced with events of this kind, would increase the interest of all chess passionates, even those who are not fond of engines. I repeat, it is absurd to talk of ICGA and other old stuff, you have to look forward. The future is online and free.

rodolfoleoni
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Re: World Computer Chess Championship ?

Post by rodolfoleoni » Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:14 pm

Sedat Canbaz wrote:
Carotino wrote:I think it is absurd to talk of ICGA. It'is simply dead.
This association has done a lot for chess engines... In the '70s and '80s! The trouble is that their leaders have stood firm in those years. They're waving a bogey (called "clone") trying to pretend to be the last barrier against barbarism, but in doing so, they are self-condemned to extinction... Like the dinosaurs. I tell them: "Thanks, you've done so much, you will be forever in our hearts, but now please ... Goodbye and thanks!

The solution is simple, and I turn to the proposal to 'all the authors of goodwill':

It takes a lot to make a new association? I think not. You just get together (virtually. We are no longer in the 80s, now there's internet!), decide the rules (simple and clear) and a few other details then... Simply play! Tournaments, leagues, match ... Everything is possible.
I think it would be important to create certain categories and different types of competition, later you can look a sponsors... I do not think this is very difficult.
Dear Roberto,

Yes...we need really a new organization,otherwise (with the current organization) we will not see the Top Engines of 3300-3400 Elo

Actually its will be great,if the new 'World Championships' to be played in two systems:Swiss and also as Leagues

League system is very interesting and exiting too

For example,two ore more leagues-based Top 16 or Top 20 participants

Super League:
----------------
1 Houdini
2 Critter
3 Ivanhoe
4 Stockfish
5 Rybka
6 Vitruvius
7 Fire
8 Naum
9 Komodo
10 Equinox
11 Spike
12 Fritz
13 Chiron
14 Shredder
15 Protector
16 Loop


Second League:
--------------
1 Junior
2 Hiarcs
3 Sjeng
4 Pandix
5 Spark
6 Zappa
7 Fruit
8 Thinker
9 Tornado
10 Onno
11 MilkoChess
12 Crafty
13 Jonny
14 The Baron
15 Hannibal
16 Gull



Best Regards,
Sedat
I believe it'd be a nice idea, but...... I strongly believe, if Houdini, Ivanhoe, Rybka, Vitruvius, Fire are in the event, many programmers would decide to stay out...
Rodolfo (The Baron Team)

Carotino
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Re: World Computer Chess Championship ?

Post by Carotino » Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:32 pm

The new password is: freedom. If someone has too snobbish to participate, is free to stay out, do not be sorry to anyone. They could form their own association, called:

I.V.A.W.S.N.

(International Virgins Association With a Snotty Nose)

rodolfoleoni
Posts: 263
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Re: World Computer Chess Championship ?

Post by rodolfoleoni » Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:43 pm

Carotino wrote:The new password is: freedom. If someone has too snobbish to participate, is free to stay out, do not be sorry to anyone. They could form their own association, called:

I.V.A.W.S.N.

(International Virgins Association With a Snotty Nose)
Suvvia!! You want to run the last mile of a marathon. You cannot pretend it'd be fair. In every competition (and in every sport) the password is: rules. Clear rules. Rather, you could organize the WDCCC (World Derivatives Computer Chess Championship), in perfect agreement with your password.
Rodolfo (The Baron Team)

IWB
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Re: World Computer Chess Championship ?

Post by IWB » Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:48 pm

Hello Marco,

With all respect about your achievements but never participate at a WC your statement is nothing but ranting! (for whatever reason)

Nonetheless, I hope for the next Stockfish and I am crossing fingers!

Regards
Ingo

Uri Blass
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Re: World Computer Chess Championship ?

Post by Uri Blass » Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:55 pm

Dan Honeycutt wrote:
mcostalba wrote:Uri, there are 15 (!) engines between the world champion (!) and the top:
Of those 15 are any other than Rybka not allowed to compete? I recall Robert saying he didn't compete due to the time and resources required. To better the participation maybe the format warrants some discussion.

Best
Dan H.
Shredder competed and shredder is number 9 in the list that marco gave.

The list is not about playing strength when programs use their book and Junior is probably better than shredder in world championship conditions.

Carotino
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Re: World Computer Chess Championship ?

Post by Carotino » Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:58 pm

Why not? About the real balance of power between the engines, it would surely be more credible of the world championship. :D

Of course, mine was a provocation (I hope I have not offended anyone) but, I'm sure that these rules are interpreted overly restrictive. The interpretation of Article 2 is to say the least subjective and unilateral.

I am equally sure that a series of tournaments, organized in the manner I have indicated, would collect more credibility and reputation of the tournament pompously called "World Championship" (which actually is not).
Today, nobody watches the ranking ICGA. To what end? What credibility has it? Most of the comments that I heard, they were just sarcastic.
Last edited by Carotino on Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Uri Blass
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Re: World Computer Chess Championship ?

Post by Uri Blass » Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:59 pm

Sedat Canbaz wrote:
Uri Blass wrote:
Sedat Canbaz wrote:Dear Uri,

Ok...but however,just i' like to mention that Fritz is a MP engine since many years, and from my experience i can say that Deep Fritz 13 is stronger than Deep Junior 13

And i see in your estimation:Houdini is approx.150 Elo stronger than Junior
Hmm...maybe you can be right,but only in case of Houdini is using not very strong book and playing on old-dated hardware

I mean,if Junior is playing on faster hardware and using a superior book

On equal conditions, the difference between both engines (Houdini/Junior):
Blitz:250-300 Elo difference
http://www.sedatcanbaz.com/chess/scct-rating/
http://www.clemens-keck.de/base.htm

Slow:200-250 Elo difference
http://www.amateurschach.de/
http://www.husvankempen.de/nunn/40_40%2 ... liste.html

Btw,i expected better performance by latest Junior 13 release (almost no any Elo difference between Junior 12)

Best,
Sedat
I believe good books for both engines reduce the difference in playing strength between engines so I still believe that 150 elo is close to the truth at long time control with books(and not bad book for houdini but good books as possible for both programs).
In my opinion,we can't measure the real Elo strenght of the engines in case of not testing the engines with neutral books

In case of using non-neutral books,the Engines Elo performance is highly effecting from the opening books

Thats why there is possibility to see even 100 Elo difference
Even there is possibility to see 300 Elo difference between both engines
I mean,if we will test Houdini against Junior at slow time control

In other words,X engine which uses a stronger book will gain more Elo...


Greetings,
Sedat
Of course a better book can give elo but my point is that good books reduce the difference between engines(assuming the quality of the books is the same) so assuming both use good books it is going to be a smaller difference.

The point is that a good book prevents the engine to do mistakes in the opening(because the book has the right moves) and with no mistakes in the opening the difference in playing strength is smaller.

Using short book lines of not more than 12 moves as happens in tests of rating lists force the engines to play positions that are in opening theory so the weaker engine has more possibilities to make a mistake and can blunder at move 15 even if known theory already has the right move at move 15.

MM
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Re: World Computer Chess Championship ?

Post by MM » Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:12 pm

I think every engine can partecipate at the ICGA world championship. If someone doesn't partecipate, then there are two possibilities:

1. He's not interested.
2. He's not able to subscribe to the ICGA rules.

In these cases i don't expect one that doesn't partecipate and says: ''Ah, ICGA, great organization! Ah, what a wonderful World Championship'' or other similar phrases.


Best Regards
MM

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