World Computer Chess Championship ?

[mcostalba]

Marco have you ever thought that a lot of people gave up on contributing

Yes I thought very well, because I miss a lot Tord's involvment in chess engines. Actually he stopped his activity already some time ago, but I am not sure he stopped due to clones. I am more confident (but only him can answer this) that he stopped due to endless flamewars and accusation/inquisition mood here in the forum (he said something along this lines in a recent post).

I am really confident (although cannot talk for him) that he _not_ stopped due to Houdart's or Norman's activities.

[Joerg Oster]

Marco have you ever thought that a lot of people gave up on contributing
since cloning reached current level and the cloners are even praised by
people who should know better(at least I hope so).
(Note that I did not care for the ICGA part in your post, but about the comparison R. Houdart or N. Schmidt or whoever he is vs. current participants there)

Then I have a simple question for you:
Why the hell didn't they (or the ICGA) stand up and speak out loud and clear when these clones appeared?
Why?

Now it is too late. Now they have to live with them. They won't go away.
Reality has changed. Computer chess reality has changed. Only the dinosaur called ICGA doesn't change. We all know what happened to the dinosaurs...

[Guenther]

Then I have a simple question for you:
Why the hell didn't they (or the ICGA) stand up and speak out loud and clear when these clones appeared?
Why?

Now it is too late. Now they have to live with them. They won't go away.
Reality has changed. Computer chess reality has changed. Only the dinosaur called ICGA doesn't change. We all know what happened to the dinosaurs...

Read again, my post was not about the ICGA, but about one aspect in
Marcos post...to which he answered.

[MM]

From a philosophical view clones or anyway derivates are like doped athletes in other sports.
They are stronger but is the compatition fair?

I think every organization in the world should be reject every clone or clearly derivate engine from official competitions.

Of course we would never have a ''real'' world champion, but at least, we would have a 100% original world champion.

On the other hand i think everyone is free (if it is legal) to manipulate any engine and make of it what he wants (and evenctually sell it).

Best Regards

[Adam Hair]

[quote="rodolfoleoni" I guess Cozzie released his first Zappa before than Fruit was released. And I've no reason to doubt both Cozzie and Letouzey worked on their engines from scratch.

Dear Rodolfo,

I think your guess is wrong

Right now I found some information at WBEC:

17/03/2004:Fruit 1.0,first release
18/10/2004:Zappa 1.1,first release

In other words,it seems Fabien and Anthony worked together as teams in 2004 year
Probably this is the main reason about why we see similarities between both engines

Best,
Sedat

Zappa 0.7 existed before Fruit 1.0 and was more than 100 elo stronger then.

Just to back up Geunther, Zappa competed in CCT 5 and definitely existed the previous year (2002).

Whereas Fruit 0.98b was introduced on 09/03/2004:
http://www.stmintz.com/ccc/index.php?id=353687
http://www.open-aurec.com/wbforum/viewt ... it#p176969

And here you can see the report that Guenther made concerning a game between the two engines on 26/04/2004.

[Gerd Isenberg]

Then I have a simple question for you:
Why the hell didn't they (or the ICGA) stand up and speak out loud and clear when these clones appeared?
Why?

Now it is too late. Now they have to live with them. They won't go away.
Reality has changed. Computer chess reality has changed. Only the dinosaur called ICGA doesn't change. We all know what happened to the dinosaurs...

May be because it requires an official complain, which was initiated by Fabien Letouzey on January 23, 2011, and filed by programmers in March 2011, see the timeline. So you may blame Fabien and all the programmers for the late investigation but not the ICGA.

[Carotino]

You could make two categories: pure engines (aryans) and impure engines. In the second case, during contests, the programmers should wear a armband with a yellow star...

But I am sure that the pure, they would still be arguing with each other, about who is more pure or less pure! Every day there would be an accusation:

"you are not 100% pure, but only 99%. I, instead, are extra pure! "

"You have copied something because your engine, every 50 moves, makes a move like mine ! "

[Guenther]

You could make two categories: pure engines (aryans) and impure engines. In the second case, during contests, the programmers should wear a armband with a yellow star...

But I am sure that the pure, they would still be arguing with each other, about who is more pure or less pure! Every day there would be an accusation:

"you are not 100% pure, but only 99%. I, instead, are extra pure! "

"You have copied something because your engine, every 50 moves, makes a move like mine ! "

Great analogy, you and your petty clones have my pity, because you are
the biggest victims in mankinds history... really I wouldn't want to wear your
glasses for one second. Big-eyed beans from Venus the Captain would say.

[Joerg Oster]

Gerd, now you're talking about the Rybka case. I intentionally didn't mention this. (But as a sidenote: it didn't need Fabien to make the accusation. Every programmer with founded suspicions could have done this. Remember 2003, WCCC in Graz, List case! And there are others. You know this, of course!)

But why didn't the programmers react when Ippolit & Co. appeared?

[mcostalba]

But why didn't the programmers react when Ippolit & Co. appeared?

The programmers reacted immediately...reading the sources and taking all the good ideas I have done so, and I am sure I was not the only one (of course all the top engine authors did the same).

But I see that we are mixing two differnt topics here.

The first topic is the right of a tournament organization to allow the engines that they want, publishing some rules that engines must follow to be allowed in the tournament. I have nothing against this, I can also decide to make a tournament with all the engines that start with 'Sto' and end with 'fish' or anything else that it comes to my mind: torunament is mine and I decide who is in and who is out.

The second topic (and the object of my criticism) is to call my above tournament "World Chess Championship". This is something that IMO is very pretending from the tournament organizizers, and, in this case is, IMHO, absolutely baseless becuase those 11 engines in no way represent the "World".