World Computer Chess Championship ?

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

Moderators: hgm, Harvey Williamson, bob

Forum rules
This textbox is used to restore diagrams posted with the [d] tag before the upgrade.
Post Reply
mcostalba
Posts: 2684
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2008 7:17 pm

World Computer Chess Championship ?

Post by mcostalba » Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:12 am

Ok this arrogant and fossilized organization called ICGA really made me get angry and I looked a bit in their site to know a bit more about them. Apart that it really seems "dead and buried", last interesting content is years ago old, I was really impressed by what they call: "World Computer Chess Championship" , the last edition of this farsa was in 2011 and below the list of participants:

http://www.grappa.univ-lille3.fr/icga/t ... php?id=239

Code: Select all

1	Junior	
2	Hiarcs	
2	Shredder	
4	Pandix	
4	Jonny		
6	The Baron	
7	Booot	
8	Rookie3.4	
9	Woodpusher 1997
Now the first question that comes to my mind is to what "world" they refer in the title of the event ? Mars ? Underwater world ? Surely not chess engines landscape in 2011, this is clear even to the dumbest. So how they have the presumption to call this marketing event, for the only benefit of legacy commercial engines, "World Computer Chess Championship" ? Because of historical reasons ? Sorry, this is not enough IMHO.

Nobody of the authors of the above listed engines (at least the ones I know, there are less known engines I don't know the authors) participates in forums, shares ideas / comments (even not talking about code), contributes in any way (again, I am talking of 2012) to chess engine community.

My opinion of Robet Houdart's Houdini is well known and I have publicly stated many times that I don't second many of his choices, nevertheless I value his contribution to this community much higher than everybody in that list. I have took Houdini example because it is considered the posterchild of "the evil clone" by many, and with this I want to highlight that even the most discussed characters contribute more than that live museum of pretending guys: I am not talking of the engine authors (which I respect all) but of the organization that shameless call itself "computer chess world" !

kinderchocolate
Posts: 408
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 5:55 am
Full name: Ted Wong
Contact:

Re: World Computer Chess Championship ?

Post by kinderchocolate » Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:19 am

In Chess, we have the world chess champion Anand and the strongest player Carlsen. This also applies to Computer Chess, Junior and Houdini.

User avatar
JuLieN
Posts: 2948
Joined: Mon May 05, 2008 10:16 am
Location: Nantes (France)
Contact:

Re: World Computer Chess Championship ?

Post by JuLieN » Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:25 am

kinderchocolate wrote:In Chess, we have the world chess champion Anand and the strongest player Carlsen. This also applies to Computer Chess, Junior and Houdini.
And Carlsen was trained by Kasparov. (Is this an innocent statement?)
"The only good bug is a dead bug." (Don Dailey)
Image [Blog: http://tinyurl.com/predateur ] [Facebook: http://tinyurl.com/fbpredateur ] [MacEngines: http://tinyurl.com/macengines ]

mcostalba
Posts: 2684
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2008 7:17 pm

Re: World Computer Chess Championship ?

Post by mcostalba » Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:29 am

kinderchocolate wrote:In Chess, we have the world chess champion Anand and the strongest player Carlsen. This also applies to Computer Chess, Junior and Houdini.
Between Ananad and Carlsen there aren't 300 ELO point of difference ! Following your analogy, is like if the world chess champion of 2012 would be a club player !

zullil
Posts: 5558
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:31 pm
Location: PA USA
Full name: Louis Zulli

Re: World Computer Chess Championship ?

Post by zullil » Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:29 am

JuLieN wrote:
kinderchocolate wrote:In Chess, we have the world chess champion Anand and the strongest player Carlsen. This also applies to Computer Chess, Junior and Houdini.
And Carlsen was trained by Kasparov. (Is this an innocent statement?)
Are you suggesting that Carlsen is a ... clone?! :twisted:

User avatar
JuLieN
Posts: 2948
Joined: Mon May 05, 2008 10:16 am
Location: Nantes (France)
Contact:

Re: World Computer Chess Championship ?

Post by JuLieN » Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:30 am

zullil wrote:
JuLieN wrote:
kinderchocolate wrote:In Chess, we have the world chess champion Anand and the strongest player Carlsen. This also applies to Computer Chess, Junior and Houdini.
And Carlsen was trained by Kasparov. (Is this an innocent statement?)
Are you suggesting that Carlsen is a ... clone?! :twisted:
I wouldn't push it that far... but he certainly got some inspiration from Kaspy, yes ;)
"The only good bug is a dead bug." (Don Dailey)
Image [Blog: http://tinyurl.com/predateur ] [Facebook: http://tinyurl.com/fbpredateur ] [MacEngines: http://tinyurl.com/macengines ]

rodolfoleoni
Posts: 263
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:16 pm

Re: World Computer Chess Championship ?

Post by rodolfoleoni » Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:03 pm

Then? You're a leader, I guess you should offer alternatives. Not just the problem, but a solution too. BTW, couldn't Stockfish participate at ICGA WCCC? Is there any rule preventint it? I think you're right when pointing out that only commercial and private engines did participate at that event. Commercial ones for marketing purposes, private ones for pure passion.

It's clear to everybody that Junior (and Hiarcs, and Shredder), are light years far from top engines. (As well, it's clear that several "top engines" are a RE and/or cloning work.) Do you want to start an alternative CC Federation, as Kasparov made vs. FIDE? Then you should start writing some rules. At least, clones shouldn't be admitted.

At the moment, ICGA is the only "authority" CC community has. Could be right or wrong, but it goes that way. Until someone builds something better.
Rodolfo (The Baron Team)

Uri Blass
Posts: 8530
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:37 pm
Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Re: World Computer Chess Championship ?

Post by Uri Blass » Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:25 pm

mcostalba wrote:
kinderchocolate wrote:In Chess, we have the world chess champion Anand and the strongest player Carlsen. This also applies to Computer Chess, Junior and Houdini.
Between Ananad and Carlsen there aren't 300 ELO point of difference ! Following your analogy, is like if the world chess champion of 2012 would be a club player !
Between houdini and Junior there are also not 300 ELO point of difference
if we assume books and long time control.

Here is one list without books but with ponder on

http://www.husvankempen.de/nunn/40_20_P ... liste.html

Houdini's rating is 3016 and Junior13's rating is 2797

I strongly believe that the difference is smaller when program use their own book,more processors than one processor and slightly slower time control than 40/20 like people use in WCCC

I guess that the difference is only something like 150 elo in WCCC conditions and being 150 elo weaker than Carlsen is still a level of almost 2700 that is not a level of a club player.

For longer time control
I can find only 166 elo difference at 120/40

http://www.husvankempen.de/nunn//40120n ... liste.html

I can also find
at 20/40 the following

http://www.husvankempen.de/nunn/40_40%2 ... liste.html

3 Houdini 1.5a x64 4CPU 3088
17 Houdini 1.5a x64 1CPU 3014
80 Deep Junior 13 x64 4CPU 2883
197 Deep Junior 13 x64 1CPU 2762

You can see smaller difference with 4 cpu relative to 1 cpu.

Carotino
Posts: 216
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2010 8:40 am
Location: Italy
Contact:

Re: World Computer Chess Championship ?

Post by Carotino » Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:43 pm

I think it is absurd to talk of ICGA. It'is simply dead.
This association has done a lot for chess engines... In the '70s and '80s! The trouble is that their leaders have stood firm in those years. They're waving a bogey (called "clone") trying to pretend to be the last barrier against barbarism, but in doing so, they are self-condemned to extinction... Like the dinosaurs. I tell them: "Thanks, you've done so much, you will be forever in our hearts, but now please ... Goodbye and thanks!

The solution is simple, and I turn to the proposal to 'all the authors of goodwill':

It takes a lot to make a new association? I think not. You just get together (virtually. We are no longer in the 80s, now there's internet!), decide the rules (simple and clear) and a few other details then... Simply play! Tournaments, leagues, match ... Everything is possible.
I think it would be important to create certain categories and different types of competition, later you can look a sponsors... I do not think this is very difficult.

User avatar
JuLieN
Posts: 2948
Joined: Mon May 05, 2008 10:16 am
Location: Nantes (France)
Contact:

Re: World Computer Chess Championship ?

Post by JuLieN » Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:55 pm

Carotino wrote:I think it is absurd to talk of ICGA. It'is simply dead.
This association has done a lot for chess engines... In the '70s and '80s! The trouble is that their leaders have stood firm in those years. They're waving a bogey (called "clone") trying to pretend to be the last barrier against barbarism, but in doing so, they are self-condemned to extinction... Like the dinosaurs. I tell them: "Thanks, you've done so much, you will be forever in our hearts, but now please ... Goodbye and thanks!

The solution is simple, and I turn to the proposal to 'all the authors of goodwill':

It takes a lot to make a new association? I think not. You just get together (virtually. We are no longer in the 80s, now there's internet!), decide the rules (simple and clear) and a few other details then... Simply play! Tournaments, leagues, match ... Everything is possible.
I think it would be important to create certain categories and different types of competition, later you can look a sponsors... I do not think this is very difficult.
What about the PCCA (The Professional Computer Chess Association) ? Sounds familiar ? ;)
"The only good bug is a dead bug." (Don Dailey)
Image [Blog: http://tinyurl.com/predateur ] [Facebook: http://tinyurl.com/fbpredateur ] [MacEngines: http://tinyurl.com/macengines ]

Post Reply