Does anyone have analyses/theory in this position?

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ethanara
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Re: Does anyone have analyses/theory in this position?

Post by ethanara » Tue Feb 07, 2012 7:48 pm

I wish you good luck with this opening, because it seems double-edged from my patzer POV.
I (1200-1300) have played this everytime i can with white, my 2200+ trainer too.
I never came in bad positions as white, quite opposite. I once won against one of the best in my group in scholastic chess after 5.f4 Ng4 6.f5 Nf2 7. Qh5 O-O?? And i won in few moves.

viriathus
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Re: Does anyone have analyses/theory in this position?

Post by viriathus » Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:39 pm

Fast test:

- 1 minute
- 1 Core
- Start position:
[d]rnb1k2r/ppp2pp1/3p4/2b1pP1p/2B1P1nq/2NP3N/PPP3PP/R1BQ1K1R b kq - 3 8

Code: Select all

Scid vs. PC
?, 2012.02.08
                    Score     Komo Crit Stoc
---------------------------------------------
 1: Komodo 4 SSE   7.5 /  8   XXXX 1111 111=
 2: Critter 1.4    2.5 /  8   0000 XXXX 011=
 3: Stockfish      2.0 /  8   000= 100= XXXX
---------------------------------------------
12 games: +5 =2 -5
White wons 5 games, lost 5 games.

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Mike S.
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Re: Does anyone have analyses/theory in this position?

Post by Mike S. » Wed Feb 08, 2012 1:00 am

In the Fritz 13 book, 5...Ng4 is marked "?" (blue move) and it would most often choose 5...Nc6. After 5...Ng4 6.f5 it has 6...h5 too, from 3 games, but the green tournament move is 6...Nf2.

[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "New game"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[PlyCount "19"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. d3 d6 5. f4 Ng4 6. f5 Nf2 7. Qh5 g6 8. Qh6
Nxh1 9. Bg5 {End of book variation. Black seems lost, e.g.} f6 {fails,
according to Critter 1.4, due to} 10. fxg6 {etc.} ({Critter 1.4 32-bit LA:} 10.
fxg6 d5 11. g7 Rf8 12. Bxf6 Qxf6 13. Qxf6 Rxf6 14. g8=Q+ Rf8 15. Qxd5 Nd7 16. Nf3 c6 17. Qe6+ Kd8 18. Nxe5 {5.76/17}) *

The short mainline built from various engine's analyses in the Let's Check system is:

[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "New game"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[PlyCount "15"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. d3 d6 5. f4 Ng4 6. f5 h5 7. Nh3 Nc6 8. Ng5
{-0.03/d13 by Rybka 4.1} *

In the following game, Black makes the "instructive mistake" 7...Qd7??

[Event "Monarch Assurance 08th"]
[Site "Port Erin"]
[Date "1999.11.13"]
[White "Emms, John M"]
[Black "Jackson, Adrian"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "C27"]
[WhiteElo "2586"]
[BlackElo "2223"]
[PlyCount "29"]

1. e4 e5 2. Bc4 Nf6 3. d3 Bc5 4. Nc3 d6 5. f4 Ng4 6. f5 Nf2 7. Qh5 Qd7 $4 ({
Critter 1.4 32-bit LA:} 7... g6 8. Qh6 Kd7 9. Qg7 Qf8 10. Be6+ Kc6 11. Bd5+ Kd7
12. Be6+ {0.00/17}) 8. Be6 {A brutal surprise.} Qe7 9. Nd5 g6 10. Qh6 Qf8 11.
Bxc8 Nxh1 12. Bxb7 Bxg1 13. Bxa8 Kd7 14. Qxf8 Rxf8 15. Bh6 1-0
Regards, Mike

kgburcham
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Re: Does anyone have analyses/theory in this position?

Post by kgburcham » Wed Feb 08, 2012 1:41 am

[D] rnbqk2r/ppp2ppp/3p1n2/2b1p3/2B1PP2/2NP4/PPP3PP/R1BQK1NR b KQkq - 0 1

Stockfish 2.2.1 JA 64bit SSE4.2:

1...Ng4 2.f5 h5 3.Nh3 Bd7 4.a3 Nc6 5.Ng5 Nf2 6.Nxf7 Qh4 7.Bg5 Nxd3+ 8.Kd2 Qf2+
= (-0.24) Depth: 30/49 16581mN
1...Ng4 2.f5 h5 3.Nh3 Bd7 4.Ng5 0-0 5.h3 Nf6 6.Bd2 Nc6 7.Na4 Bb4 8.c3
= (-0.16 --) Depth: 31/50 18992mN
1...Ng4 2.f5 Nf6 3.Bb3 c6 4.Qf3 b5 5.Qg3 Qe7 6.Nf3 Nbd7 7.Qxg7 Rg8
= (-0.16) Depth: 31/50 20192mN
1...0-0 2.Nf3 a5 3.fxe5 dxe5
= (-0.24 ++) Depth: 32/50 24511mN
1...0-0 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Na4 Bb6 4.Nxb6 axb6 5.fxe5 Nxe5 6.Nxe5 dxe5 7.Bg5 h6
= (-0.16) Depth: 32/50 29884mN
1...0-0 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Na4 Bb6 4.Nxb6 axb6 5.fxe5 Nxe5 6.Nxe5 dxe5 7.Bg5
= (-0.24 ++) Depth: 33/50 30103mN


Houdini 2.0c Pro x64:

1...Nc6 2.Nf3 Ng4 3.Qe2 Bf2+ 4.Kf1 Nd4 5.Nxd4 Bxd4 6.h3 Nf6 7.g4 c6 8.Kg2 0-0 9.Bb3 Be6 10.f5 Bxb3 11.axb3 Nd7 12.Be3 Qb6 13.Bf2 a5 14.g5
= (-0.13) Depth: 21/51 00:00:35 847mN
1...0-0 2.Nf3 a6 3.fxe5 dxe5 4.Rf1 Nc6 5.Nd5 Nxd5 6.Bxd5 Bg4 7.Bxc6 bxc6 8.h3 Bd7
=/+ (-0.27) Depth: 21/51 00:00:37 891mN
1...0-0 2.Nf3 a6 3.Rf1 Nc6 4.fxe5 dxe5 5.Nd5 Nxd5 6.Bxd5 h6 7.Bd2 Qd6 8.Bxc6 bxc6
= (-0.21) Depth: 22/51 00:00:43 1038mN
1...0-0 2.Nf3 a6 3.Rf1 Nc6 4.fxe5 dxe5 5.Nd5 Nxd5 6.Bxd5 h6 7.Bd2 Qd6 8.Bxc6 bxc6
= (-0.21) Depth: 23/53 00:01:09 1749mN
1...0-0 2.Nf3 a6 3.fxe5 dxe5 4.Nd5 Nxd5 5.Bxd5 Qd6 6.Bd2 Nc6 7.Bc3 Bg4 8.Bxc6 Qxc6
= (-0.18) Depth: 24/58 00:02:18 3648mN
1...0-0 2.Nf3 a6 3.fxe5 dxe5 4.Qe2 Nc6 5.Nd5 Nxd5 6.Bxd5 Qd6 7.Bxc6 bxc6 8.Be3 Rb8
= (-0.13) Depth: 25/58 00:05:21 8736mN
1...Ng4
= (-0.24 ++) Depth: 25/62 00:07:22 12105mN
1...Ng4 2.f5 h5 3.Nh3 Nc6 4.Ng5 Nf2 5.Nxf7 Qh4 6.Bg5 Nxd3+ 7.Kd2 Qf2+ 8.Qe2 Qxe2+ 9.Kxe2 Nxb2
=/+ (-0.31) Depth: 25/62 00:08:06 13329mN
1...Ng4 2.f5
= (-0.24 --) Depth: 26/62 00:10:25 17325mN
1...Ng4 2.f5 h5 3.Nh3 Nc6 4.a3 f6 5.Bd2 Bd7 6.Qb1 Nd4 7.b4 Bb6 8.Nd5 c6 9.Nxb6 Qxb6
= (-0.14) Depth: 26/65 00:16:09 27193mN



[D] rnb1k2r/ppp2pp1/3p4/2b1pP1p/2B1P1nq/2NP3N/PPP3PP/R1BQ1K1R b kq - 0 1

Stockfish 2.2.1 JA 64bit SSE4.2:

1...Nc6 2.a3 Bd7 3.Nd5 Qd8 4.b4 Bb6 5.Ng5 0-0 6.h3 Nf6 7.Nxf6+ gxf6 8.Bxf7+ Rxf7 9.Nxf7 Kxf7
= (0.08 --) Depth: 36/53 00:16:35 15638mN
1...Nc6 2.a3 Bd7 3.Nd5 Qd8 4.b4 Bb6 5.Ng5 Nf2 6.Qd2 Bd4 7.c3 Nxh1
= (0.16 --) Depth: 36/53 00:26:48 25492mN
1...Nc6 2.a3 Bd7 3.Nd5 Qd8 4.b4 Bb6 5.Ng5 Nf2 6.Qd2 Nxh1 7.Nxb6 axb6 8.Bxf7+ Kf8 9.Kg1 Ng3
+/= (0.28 --) Depth: 36/53 00:32:35 31036mN
1...Nc6 2.a3 Ne3+ 3.Bxe3 Bxe3 4.Nd5 Bb6 5.Qe1 Qxe1+ 6.Kxe1 f6 7.Rf1 Ne7 8.Nxb6 axb6 9.Kd2 Bd7
= (0.04) Depth: 36/70 00:53:44 51877mN
1...Nc6 2.a3 Ne3+ 3.Bxe3 Bxe3
= (0.12 --) Depth: 37/70 00:57:41 55648mN
1...Nc6 2.a3 Ne3+ 3.Bxe3 Bxe3 4.Nd5 Bb6 5.Qe1 Qxe1+ 6.Kxe1 f6 7.Rf1 Ne7 8.Nxb6 axb6
= (0.04) Depth: 37/70 01:01:56 59820mN

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M ANSARI
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Re: Does anyone have analyses/theory in this position?

Post by M ANSARI » Wed Feb 08, 2012 12:23 pm

From the start position I think just developing with Nf3 is best. These kind of positions where black seems ahead in tempi without obviously bad developing moves from white usually means that very quickly black will find himself over extended. If Nf3 and then black Knight goes to g4 then rf1! Ok black managed to prevent white castling kingside but things could now backfire if he himself castles kingside white advanced pawns could easily blast him. This opening would be good for black if white is not aware of possible tactical dangers.

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OliverUwira
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Re: Does anyone have analyses/theory in this position?

Post by OliverUwira » Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:29 pm

M ANSARI wrote:From the start position I think just developing with Nf3 is best. These kind of positions where black seems ahead in tempi without obviously bad developing moves from white usually means that very quickly black will find himself over extended. If Nf3 and then black Knight goes to g4 then rf1! Ok black managed to prevent white castling kingside but things could now backfire if he himself castles kingside white advanced pawns could easily blast him. This opening would be good for black if white is not aware of possible tactical dangers.
Do you mean 5. Nf3 instead of 5. f4? In this case I would simply play 6. O-O in reply to 5...Ng4 (in most cases Ng4 is pointless if the opponent can castle).

A fellow chess coach I know plays the Vienna and always teaches the Vienna to the girls he coaches. He plays the line with 5. Be3 in combination with Ng1-e2 in order to advance the f-pawn later on.

In contrast, 5. Nf3 is quite toothless as it is likely to transpose to the Gioco Pianissimo which doesn't give Black a serious headache.

It is a sound suggestion though, and would be well suited for the OP - i.e. if you've got 1200-1300 ELO you should be more concerned with learning to play the middle game and end game and not focus on crushes right out of the opening by some special method (in the f4-f5 case that special method would be the pawn roller on the kingside). Becoming versatile is the key to improvement.

zullil
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Re: Does anyone have analyses/theory in this position?

Post by zullil » Wed Feb 08, 2012 3:01 pm

M ANSARI wrote:From the start position I think just developing with Nf3 is best. These kind of positions where black seems ahead in tempi without obviously bad developing moves from white usually means that very quickly black will find himself over extended. If Nf3 and then black Knight goes to g4 then rf1! Ok black managed to prevent white castling kingside but things could now backfire if he himself castles kingside white advanced pawns could easily blast him. This opening would be good for black if white is not aware of possible tactical dangers.
The first diagram is wrong. White has just played f4 and so it's black's move. What's best then for black here:

[D]rnbqk2r/ppp2ppp/3p1n2/2b1p3/2B1PP2/2NP4/PPP3PP/R1BQK1NR b KQkq f3 0 5

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lucasart
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Re: Does anyone have analyses/theory in this position?

Post by lucasart » Wed Feb 08, 2012 3:20 pm

ethanara wrote: [d]rnbqk2r/ppp2ppp/3p1n2/2b1p3/2B1PP2/2NP4/PPP3PP/R1BQK1NR w KQkq
In this position my engine DoubleCheck 2.5.4 prefers Nf3 and thinks the position is very equal. Critter 1.4 agrees, even after a long time of analysis. It may seem a little counter intuitive to allow ..Ng4, but after Nf3 and Ng4 the best response according to both engines is simply Qe2
Although I prefer Rf1 from Ansari instead which is a more human move, and easier to play/understand.

zullil
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Re: Does anyone have analyses/theory in this position?

Post by zullil » Wed Feb 08, 2012 3:27 pm

lucasart wrote:
ethanara wrote: [d]rnbqk2r/ppp2ppp/3p1n2/2b1p3/2B1PP2/2NP4/PPP3PP/R1BQK1NR w KQkq
In this position my engine DoubleCheck 2.5.4 prefers Nf3 and thinks the position is very equal. Critter 1.4 agrees, even after a long time of analysis. It may seem a little counter intuitive to allow ..Ng4, but after Nf3 and Ng4 the best response according to both engines is simply Qe2
Although I prefer Rf1 from Ansari instead which is a more human move, and easier to play/understand.
OK, but the diagram is incorrect. It should be black to move:
[D]rnbqk2r/ppp2ppp/3p1n2/2b1p3/2B1PP2/2NP4/PPP3PP/R1BQK1NR b KQkq f3 0 5

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lucasart
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Re: Does anyone have analyses/theory in this position?

Post by lucasart » Wed Feb 08, 2012 3:29 pm

zullil wrote: The first diagram is wrong. White has just played f4 and so it's black's move. What's best then for black here:
[D]rnbqk2r/ppp2ppp/3p1n2/2b1p3/2B1PP2/2NP4/PPP3PP/R1BQK1NR b KQkq f3 0 5
You're right Louis!

Ethan,
Are you sure this position is theory ? It seems already incorrect, and after 5 moves black has a significant edge here with Ng4... White must have played something wrong before to get here. Don't trust book lines blindly, there are so many bad books out there that have not been submitted to thorough computer analysis...

I think the last move from white f4? is unsound

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