Does anyone have analyses/theory in this position?

[ethanara]

Hi,
I play this opening/system very often as white:
1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d3 d6 5. f4!?

Here people sometimes play 5... Ng4 :
[d]rnbqk2r/ppp2ppp/3p1n2/2b1p3/2B1PP2/2NP4/PPP3PP/R1BQK1NR w KQkq

Here Houdini recommends 6.fxe5, but the theory I know is 6.f5
Now Black will be in trouble/very unclear positions if he plays 6...Nf2 or 6...Bf2+ because of 7.Qh5!
But what if black plays 6...h5! ?
[d]rnbqk2r/ppp2pp1/3p4/2b1pP1p/2B1P1n1/2NP4/PPP3PP/R1BQK1NR w KQkq
My chess trainer (2200 elo) says that he and his Fritz have found the refutation, but i dont believe in that.
Does anyone have any suggestions, theory, or analyzes of this position?
Mr.Houdini says around -0.32 , but it was about on depth 20

[OliverUwira]

Interesting stuff. I'm writing this without any engine assistence (have none at the office) but even unverified comments might give good cues...

An important thing to notice is that 6...h5 weakens g6.

So how about 7. Qf3 with the idea of 7...Nf2 8. Qg3 - now 8...Nxh1 9. Qxg7 Rf8 10. Bg5 looks like a promising attack. After e.g. 10...Qd7 White has 11. Bh6 which looks crushing.

If, instead of taking the rook Black protects g7 by a rook move, White could sacrifice with 9. Bxf7+ Kxf7 10. Qg6+ exploiting the weakened g6-square, followed by e.g. Bg5 which also looks strong.

Finally, 7...Bf2+ is nothing. White has 8. Kd1 and now Black has to retreat, losing precious time.

[zullil]

Hi,

But what if black plays 6...h5! ?
[d]rnbqk2r/ppp2pp1/3p4/2b1pP1p/2B1P1n1/2NP4/PPP3PP/R1BQK1NR w KQkq

7. Nh3 seems obvious.

[OliverUwira]

Hi,

But what if black plays 6...h5! ?
[d]rnbqk2r/ppp2pp1/3p4/2b1pP1p/2B1P1n1/2NP4/PPP3PP/R1BQK1NR w KQkq

7. Nh3 seems obvious.

I thought 7. Nh3 would suck because of 7...Qh4+ when White can't play 8. g3.

Therefore after 7...Qh4+ Black must move the king, this time around without any compensation. This can't be a refutation of 6...h5

Edit: Well, maybe White can do with 8. Kf1 when Bg5 is threatened... but the Ne3+ would net the bishop pair... still, 7. Nh3 probably isn't the refutation.

[zullil]

Hi,

But what if black plays 6...h5! ?
[d]rnbqk2r/ppp2pp1/3p4/2b1pP1p/2B1P1n1/2NP4/PPP3PP/R1BQK1NR w KQkq

7. Nh3 seems obvious.

I thought 7. Nh3 would suck because of 7...Qh4+ when White can't play 8. g3.

Therefore after 7...Qh4+ Black must move the king, this time around without any compensation. This can't be a refutation of 6...h5

Edit: Well, maybe White can do with 8. Kf1 when Bg5 is threatened... but the Ne3+ would net the bishop pair... still, 7. Nh3 probably isn't the refutation.

Stockfish-2.2.2 (8 threads, 4GB hash) gives Black a very small advantage after Nh3, which it considers best for White:

Code: Select all

info depth 36 seldepth 57 score cp -12 nodes 42377626332 nps 7777590 time 5448683 multipv 1 pv g1h3 b8c6 a2a4 f7f6 a4a5 a7a6 c3d5 c6e7 c1d2 c8d7 d1e2 c7c6 d5e7 d8e7 e1c1 e8c8 d1f1 c8b8 c4b3 d6d5 h3g1 d5d4 g1f3 g4e3 f1g1 h5h4 c1b1 h4h3 g2g3

[Don]

Hi,
I play this opening/system very often as white:
1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d3 d6 5. f4!?

Here people sometimes play 5... Ng4 :
[d]rnbqk2r/ppp2ppp/3p1n2/2b1p3/2B1PP2/2NP4/PPP3PP/R1BQK1NR w KQkq

I'm checking it out with Komodo, but Komodo really doesn't like 5. f4

Komodo's idea seems to be for black to now play 5... c6 and expand like crazy on the queen side with about a half pawn advantage. I'll let it run an hour or two.

Here Houdini recommends 6.fxe5, but the theory I know is 6.f5
Now Black will be in trouble/very unclear positions if he plays 6...Nf2 or 6...Bf2+ because of 7.Qh5!
But what if black plays 6...h5! ?
[d]rnbqk2r/ppp2pp1/3p4/2b1pP1p/2B1P1n1/2NP4/PPP3PP/R1BQK1NR w KQkq
My chess trainer (2200 elo) says that he and his Fritz have found the refutation, but i dont believe in that.
Does anyone have any suggestions, theory, or analyzes of this position?
Mr.Houdini says around -0.32 , but it was about on depth 20

[Ajedrecista]

Hello Ethan:

I also have not got any theory or knowledge about this position. In fact, this opening (especially f4) looks very risky for me, just the opposite to my dull and quiet style. I give a try to Komodo 3 w32 in an Intel Pentium D930 with 512 MB of hash... not a great thing, but it reached depth 21 in about an hour:

[d]rnbqk2r/ppp2pp1/3p4/2b1pP1p/2B1P1n1/2NP4/PPP3PP/R1BQK1NR w KQkq - 0 1

FEN: rnbqk2r/ppp2pp1/3p4/2b1pP1p/2B1P1n1/2NP4/PPP3PP/R1BQK1NR w KQkq - 0 1

Komodo3-32:

1 00:00 97 1.552 -0,18 Ng1f3 Bc5f2+

2 00:00 1.146 14.668 -0,59 b2b4 Ng4f2

3 00:00 3.937 41.994 -0,84 Qd1e2 OO Ng1f3 Nb8c6

4 00:00 9.212 65.507 -1,12 Qd1e2 Ng4f2 Nc3a4 Nf2xh1 Na4xc5

5 00:00 9.740 69.262 -0,86 Qd1e2
5 00:00 10.597 75.356 -0,81 Qd1e2 Ng4f2 Nc3a4 Nf2xh1 Na4xc5 d6xc5
5 00:00 11.564 74.009 -0,81 Qd1e2 Ng4f2 Nc3a4 Nf2xh1 Na4xc5 d6xc5

6 00:00 12.812 81.996 -1,05 Qd1e2 Ng4f2 Ng1f3 Nf2xh1 Bc1g5 f7f6 Bg5e3 Bc5xe3
6 00:00 17.135 91.386 -1,05 Qd1e2 Ng4f2 Ng1f3 Nf2xh1 Bc1g5 f7f6 Bg5e3 Bc5xe3

7 00:01 18.704 92.081 -1,11 Qd1e2 Ng4f2 Ng1f3 Nf2xh1 Bc1g5 f7f6 Bg5e3 Nb8c6
7 00:01 32.519 115.623 -1,11 Qd1e2 Ng4f2 Ng1f3 Nf2xh1 Bc1g5 f7f6 Bg5e3 Nb8c6

8 00:01 35.550 113.760 -0,95 Qd1e2
8 00:01 40.480 123.367 -0,92 Qd1e2 Ng4f2 Bc1e3 Bc5xe3 Qe2xe3 Nf2xh1 OOO c7c6 Ng1f3 b7b5
8 00:01 52.407 124.224 -0,92 Qd1e2 Ng4f2 Bc1e3 Bc5xe3 Qe2xe3 Nf2xh1 OOO c7c6 Ng1f3 b7b5

9 00:01 64.706 129.412 -0,76 Qd1e2
9 00:01 83.638 140.864 -0,77 Qd1e2 b7b5
9 00:01 129.597 148.110 -0,72 Qd1e2 b7b5 Nc3xb5 c7c6 d3d4 e5xd4 f5f6 g7xf6 h2h3 a7a6 h3xg4 a6xb5
9 00:01 129.638 145.558 -0,72 Qd1e2 b7b5 Nc3xb5 c7c6 d3d4 e5xd4 f5f6 g7xf6 h2h3 a7a6 h3xg4 a6xb5

10 00:01 175.340 153.722 -0,53 Qd1e2
10 00:01 182.482 153.669 -0,54 Qd1e2 b7b5
10 00:02 253.724 159.199 -0,52 Qd1e2 Ng4f2 Ng1f3 Nf2xh1 Nf3g5 Nh1f2 Ng5xf7 Qd8h4 Nf7xh8 Nf2xd3+ Ke1d2 Nd3xc1 Kd2xc1 Qh4xh2
10 00:02 253.771 159.228 -0,52 Qd1e2 Ng4f2 Ng1f3 Nf2xh1 Nf3g5 Nh1f2 Ng5xf7 Qd8h4 Nf7xh8 Nf2xd3+ Ke1d2 Nd3xc1 Kd2xc1 Qh4xh2

11 00:02 276.810 161.053 -0,72 Qd1e2 Ng4f2
11 00:03 392.124 166.198 -0,71 Qd1e2
11 00:03 502.624 169.304 -0,61 Qd1e2 Ng4f2 Ng1f3 Nf2xh1 Nf3g5 Nh1f2 Bc4xf7+ Ke8f8 Nc3d5 a7a5 c2c3 Bc8d7 Bc1e3 Bc5xe3 Qe2xe3 Nf2g4
11 00:03 502.669 168.433 -0,61 Qd1e2 Ng4f2 Ng1f3 Nf2xh1 Nf3g5 Nh1f2 Bc4xf7+ Ke8f8 Nc3d5 a7a5 c2c3 Bc8d7 Bc1e3 Bc5xe3 Qe2xe3 Nf2g4

12 00:04 727.646 173.120 -0,45 Qd1e2
12 00:05 819.255 174.193 -0,46 Qd1e2 Ng4f2
12 00:06 982.689 176.168 -0,48 Qd1e2 Ng4f2 Ng1f3 Nf2xh1 Nf3g5 c7c6 Bc4xf7+ Ke8d7 Bc1d2 Bc5f2+ Ke1d1 Bf2h4 Ng5e6 Nh1f2+ Kd1c1 Qd8f6 Bf7xh5 Kd7e7 g2g3 Bc8xe6
12 00:06 1.026.762 177.123 -0,48 Qd1e2 Ng4f2 Ng1f3 Nf2xh1 Nf3g5 c7c6 Bc4xf7+ Ke8d7 Bc1d2 Bc5f2+ Ke1d1 Bf2h4 Ng5e6 Nh1f2+ Kd1c1 Qd8f6 Bf7xh5 Kd7e7 g2g3 Bc8xe6

13 00:07 1.178.501 178.730 -0,64 Qd1e2 Ng4f2
13 00:09 1.495.444 180.581 -0,63 Qd1e2
13 00:09 1.543.840 181.294 -0,63 Qd1e2 Ng4f2 Ng1f3 Nf2xh1 Nf3g5 c7c6 Bc4xf7+ Ke8d7 Bc1d2 Bc5f2+ Ke1f1 Kd7c7 Bf7xh5 Bf2d4 Nc3d1 Qd8f6 Ng5f7 Rh8f8 Bd2g5
13 00:09 1.543.887 180.968 -0,63 Qd1e2 Ng4f2 Ng1f3 Nf2xh1 Nf3g5 c7c6 Bc4xf7+ Ke8d7 Bc1d2 Bc5f2+ Ke1f1 Kd7c7 Bf7xh5 Bf2d4 Nc3d1 Qd8f6 Ng5f7 Rh8f8 Bd2g5

14 00:13 2.339.506 183.490 -0,47 Qd1e2
14 00:13 2.405.800 183.956 -0,48 Qd1e2 Ng4f2
14 00:17 3.155.991 184.123 -0,40 Qd1e2 Ng4f2 Ng1f3 Nf2xh1 Nf3g5 c7c6 Bc4xf7+ Ke8d7 Qe2f1 Bc5f2+ Ke1e2 Bf2h4 Ng5e6 Qd8f6 g2g3 Qf6xf7 g3xh4 g7g6 Bc1g5 g6xf5 e4xf5
14 00:17 3.156.042 184.126 -0,40 Qd1e2 Ng4f2 Ng1f3 Nf2xh1 Nf3g5 c7c6 Bc4xf7+ Ke8d7 Qe2f1 Bc5f2+ Ke1e2 Bf2h4 Ng5e6 Qd8f6 g2g3 Qf6xf7 g3xh4 g7g6 Bc1g5 g6xf5 e4xf5

15 00:23 4.178.026 185.690 -0,49 Qd1e2 Ng4f2 Ng1f3 Nf2xh1 Nf3g5 c7c6 Bc4xf7+ Ke8d7 Qe2f1 Nh1f2 Ng5e6 Qd8f6 Ne6xc5+ d6xc5 Bf7e6+ Kd7c7 Qf1xf2 Bc8xe6 f5xe6 Qf6xf2+ Ke1xf2 Rh8e8 Bc1e3 Re8xe6 Be3xc5 Re6f6+
15 00:25 4.604.089 186.494 -0,49 Qd1e2 Ng4f2 Ng1f3 Nf2xh1 Nf3g5 c7c6 Bc4xf7+ Ke8d7 Qe2f1 Nh1f2 Ng5e6 Qd8f6 Ne6xc5+ d6xc5 Bf7e6+ Kd7c7 Qf1xf2 Bc8xe6 f5xe6 Qf6xf2+ Ke1xf2 Rh8e8 Bc1e3 Re8xe6 Be3xc5 Re6f6+

16 00:31 5.659.854 187.006 -0,65 Qd1e2 Ng4f2
16 01:27 15.974.820 183.849 -0,33 Ng1h3
16 01:28 16.154.861 183.969 -0,34 Ng1h3 Qd8h4+
16 02:27 27.175.991 184.968 -0,23 Ng1h3 Qd8h4+ Ke1f1 Nb8c6 Bc1g5 Ng4e3+ Bg5xe3 Bc5xe3 Nc3d5 Be3b6 Qd1e1 Qh4d8 Nd5xb6 a7xb6 Qe1g3 OO Nh3g5 Qd8f6 c2c3 Nc6a5 Bc4d5 c7c6 Bd5xf7+ Rf8xf7 Ng5xf7
16 02:27 27.176.039 184.969 -0,23 Ng1h3 Qd8h4+ Ke1f1 Nb8c6 Bc1g5 Ng4e3+ Bg5xe3 Bc5xe3 Nc3d5 Be3b6 Qd1e1 Qh4d8 Nd5xb6 a7xb6 Qe1g3 OO Nh3g5 Qd8f6 c2c3 Nc6a5 Bc4d5 c7c6 Bd5xf7+ Rf8xf7 Ng5xf7

17 03:04 34.126.353 186.038 -0,27 Ng1h3 b7b5 Nc3xb5 c7c6 d3d4 e5xd4 Nb5xd4 d6d5 e4xd5 Qd8e7+ Ke1f1 OO Nh3g5 c6xd5 Bc4xd5 Qe7e5 Nd4f3 Bc8a6+ c2c4 Qe5xf5 b2b4 Ng4f6 Bd5xf7+ Rf8xf7 b4xc5 Ba6xc4+ Kf1g1 Rf7d7 Qd1e1 Qf5xc5+ Bc1e3
17 03:08 34.857.842 186.141 -0,27 Ng1h3 b7b5 Nc3xb5 c7c6 d3d4 e5xd4 Nb5xd4 d6d5 e4xd5 Qd8e7+ Ke1f1 OO Nh3g5 c6xd5 Bc4xd5 Qe7e5 Nd4f3 Bc8a6+ c2c4 Qe5xf5 b2b4 Ng4f6 Bd5xf7+ Rf8xf7 b4xc5 Ba6xc4+ Kf1g1 Rf7d7 Qd1e1 Qf5xc5+ Bc1e3

18 04:56 53.938.808 182.485 -0,18 Ng1h3 c7c6 Bc1g5 f7f6 Bg5d2 b7b5 Bc4b3 a7a5 a2a3 Qd8b6 Qd1f3 Bc5e3 OOO Nb8d7 Bb3e6 Be3xd2+ Rd1xd2 b5b4 Nc3a4 Qb6b5 Be6b3
18 05:04 55.163.563 181.599 -0,18 Ng1h3 c7c6 Bc1g5 f7f6 Bg5d2 b7b5 Bc4b3 a7a5 a2a3 Qd8b6 Qd1f3 Bc5e3 OOO Nb8d7 Bb3e6 Be3xd2+ Rd1xd2 b5b4 Nc3a4 Qb6b5 Be6b3

19 05:53 61.981.292 175.615 -0,25 Ng1h3 c7c6 Bc1g5 f7f6 Bg5d2 b7b5 Bc4b3 a7a5 a2a3 Qd8b6 Qd1f3 Bc5e3 OOO Nb8d7 Bb3e6 Be3xd2+ Rd1xd2 b5b4 Nc3a4 Qb6b5 Be6b3 b4xa3 b2xa3 Nd7c5 Na4xc5 Qb5xc5
19 06:13 64.525.775 173.296 -0,25 Ng1h3 c7c6 Bc1g5 f7f6 Bg5d2 b7b5 Bc4b3 a7a5 a2a3 Qd8b6 Qd1f3 Bc5e3 OOO Nb8d7 Bb3e6 Be3xd2+ Rd1xd2 b5b4 Nc3a4 Qb6b5 Be6b3 b4xa3 b2xa3 Nd7c5 Na4xc5 Qb5xc5

20 17:30 118.467.542 112.868 -0,20 Ng1h3 f7f6 Bc1d2 Nb8c6 Nc3d5 a7a5 a2a3 Bc8d7 b2b4 Bc5a7 b4xa5 Nc6e7 Nd5xe7 Qd8xe7 Ra1b1 Ra8b8 a5a6 b7b5 Bc4b3 Rb8b6 Bd2a5 Ng4e3 Qd1f3 Rb6c6
20 18:25 122.265.282 110.673 -0,20 Ng1h3 f7f6 Bc1d2 Nb8c6 Nc3d5 a7a5 a2a3 Bc8d7 b2b4 Bc5a7 b4xa5 Nc6e7 Nd5xe7 Qd8xe7 Ra1b1 Ra8b8 a5a6 b7b5 Bc4b3 Rb8b6 Bd2a5 Ng4e3 Qd1f3 Rb6c6

21 44:41 227.135.940 84.728 -0,04 Ng1h3
21 57:51 279.060.673 80.399 -0,05 Ng1h3 Qd8h4+
21 1:00:52 291.461.837 79.821 -0,05 Ng1h3 Qd8h4+ Ke1f1 OO Bc1g5 Ng4e3+ Bg5xe3 Bc5xe3 Nc3d5 Be3b6 Qd1e1 Qh4d8 Qe1e2 Qd8h4 Qe2e1
21 1:00:52 291.465.736 79.820 -0,05 Ng1h3 Qd8h4+ Ke1f1 OO Bc1g5 Ng4e3+ Bg5xe3 Bc5xe3 Nc3d5 Be3b6 Qd1e1 Qh4d8 Qe1e2 Qd8h4 Qe2e1

As you can see, Komodo prefers 7.- Nh3 and is not confident about the next move for black... a good idea could be analysing the position after Nh3 is played with some strong engines (more than one if possible) in a better hardware than me (of course) with MultiPV enabled (3 or 5 shown mainlines, for example).

You can take a look at ChessOK Opening Tree, which is very useful:

1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. d3 d6 5. f4 Ng4 6. f5 h5 7. Nh3

Code: Select all

Move  Eval.  Games  W/won   B/won   Draws  W/ELO  B/ELO  Year 

Nh3   -0.07   22     50%    27.3%   22.7%  2411   2494   2008 
Nf3   -0.48    7     42.9%  57.1%    0%    2141   2540   2007 
Qf3   -0.64    2     50%     0%     50%    2020   2191   1998

1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. d3 d6 5. f4 Ng4 6. f5 h5 7. Nh3

Code: Select all

Move  Eval.  Games  W/won   B/won   Draws  W/ELO  B/ELO  Year 

Qh4   -0.07   12    66.7%    8.3%   25%    2411   2379   2007 
 c6   +0.04    6    16.7%   66.7%   16.7%  2319   2494   2008 
Nc6   +0.15    2    50%     50%      0%    2193   2350   1995 
 f6   +0.07    1     0%      0%    100%    2199   2215   1995 
Ne3   +0.15    1   100%      0%      0%    2411   2479   2006

I wish you good luck with this opening, because it seems double-edged from my patzer POV.

Regards from Spain.

Ajedrecista.

[zullil]

Hi,

But what if black plays 6...h5! ?
[d]rnbqk2r/ppp2pp1/3p4/2b1pP1p/2B1P1n1/2NP4/PPP3PP/R1BQK1NR w KQkq

7. Nh3 seems obvious.

I thought 7. Nh3 would suck because of 7...Qh4+ when White can't play 8. g3.

Therefore after 7...Qh4+ Black must move the king, this time around without any compensation. This can't be a refutation of 6...h5

Edit: Well, maybe White can do with 8. Kf1 when Bg5 is threatened... but the Ne3+ would net the bishop pair... still, 7. Nh3 probably isn't the refutation.

Critter-1.4 (8 threads, 4GB hash) also prefers Nh3, giving a small advantage to Black:

Code: Select all

27/64  47:15 28041386045 9889704  -0.11 Nh3 Nc6 a3 f6 Na4 Bd4 Nc3 Bd7 Ba2 Bc5 Ne2 Bb6 Ng3 Qe7 Nxh5 Ne3 Bxe3 Bxe3 c3 O-O-O Qf3 Bb6 O-O-O Kb8 Kb1 Be8 g4 Bxh5 gxh5 Qe8 h6 Rxh6 Nf2 Qd7 Bd5

[OliverUwira]

Interesting stuff. I'm writing this without any engine assistence (have none at the office) but even unverified comments might give good cues...

An important thing to notice is that 6...h5 weakens g6.

So how about 7. Qf3 with the idea of 7...Nf2 8. Qg3 - now 8...Nxh1 9. Qxg7 Rf8 10. Bg5 looks like a promising attack. After e.g. 10...Qd7 White has 11. Bh6 which looks crushing.

If, instead of taking the rook Black protects g7 by a rook move, White could sacrifice with 9. Bxf7+ Kxf7 10. Qg6+ exploiting the weakened g6-square, followed by e.g. Bg5 which also looks strong.

Finally, 7...Bf2+ is nothing. White has 8. Kd1 and now Black has to retreat, losing precious time.

With engine assistence it turns out that my idea sucks because of 7. Qf3 Nf2 8. Qg3 Kf8! when 9. Bg5 fails due to 9...Nxh1!

I also checked my megabase and found that 7. Nh3 is the main move and thus should be considered theory. After this 7...Qh4+ is the main move.

However, after 8. Kf1 Ne3+ 9. Bxe3 Bxe3 is not effective because of 10. Nd5 Bb6 and the black bishop pair will be halved. For the time being white can continue his development with 11. Qd2, taking the bishop later at his convenience.

7. Nh3 c6 is probably better. In my opinion Black should have equality or a slight advantage.

I wonder what the refutation is that your coach was talking about.

[zullil]

Hi,
I play this opening/system very often as white:
1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d3 d6 5. f4!?

[d]rnbqk2r/ppp2ppp/3p1n2/2b1p3/2B1PP2/2NP4/PPP3PP/R1BQK1NR w KQkq

Your diagram/fen is wrong. It should be Black to move.

[D]rnbqk2r/ppp2ppp/3p1n2/2b1p3/2B1PP2/2NP4/PPP3PP/R1BQK1NR b KQkq