Komodo sees the position as very close to even now.
21. Qh4 Kc7
22. Qf4+ Kd8
23. Bxd5
23. Nd5 Bxd5
24. Qg5
[d] rn1k3r/3n3p/p5p1/1B1b2Q1/8/8/PPP3PP/2K5 b - - 0 11
As I said above We could arrive at a position with a queen and 4 pawns against rook, 2 knights and 2 pawns, the question is this position really equal? For the engines white could not make progress it seems, but for a human position looks very playable.
Komodo sees this as very close about 0.05 advantage for white. Other programs may see a big advantage for white, I don't really know.
When you say, "playable" I think you mean that a human would be happy playing this against another human? Or that it's easy to draw?
The primary thing I'm trying to refute here is a statement someone made, and I don't think it was you, that white easily wins even without the TN move Nxe6 that started this discussion. I think I have already proved that. I don't mind being proved wrong however, I could be. So we can continue to play this out (or try a different white move) or we can stop if you agree at any point that it's more or less playable for both sides.
....NXe6 is the crushing fast winning move but it's not the only one leading to victory....
I do insist that Black has an inferior position and choosing the right path will do the trick....it will be a slower procedure though....
Dr.D
_No one can hit as hard as life.But it ain’t about how hard you can hit.It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward.How much you can take and keep moving forward….
Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:....NXe6 is the crushing fast winning move but it's not the only one leading to victory....
I do insist that Black has an inferior position and choosing the right path will do the trick....it will be a slower procedure though....
Dr.D
You could be right - chess is not so simple. But I don't see it yet and nobody has shown me a win for white - at least not yet. I am willing to explore different paths with these test games to find the truth.
If you look at the evaluation using top chess programs some think that white DOES have a nearly won position, but I don't consider that a reliable measure when a position is this unbalanced especially. Komodo seems to believe that white has only a small edge, less than 1/10 pawn. I trust Komodo's evaluation more than any other program but I know that every program has positions that it does not evaluate as well as others and Komodo is no exception.
Don wrote:
Komodo is quite happy, believing that Nd5 is not a good move. I'm not sure either color has enough to win, but this is certainly very unblanced which means a program can mis-evaluate it easily.
Wow sorry I had the wrong position on my board(as you could see from the diagram I posted). Qh4 was the move. Sorry for my confusion.
Intended position was
21. Qh4 if Kc7
22. Qf4+ Kd8
and now 23. Nd5
sorry again for my blunder.
I think 23. Nd5 Kc8 is best here.
Komodo likes 2 different responses if you take the Bishop, so it will take me some time to sort them out. It will probably be either axb5 or Ra7 assuming you take the bishop.
Don wrote:
Komodo is quite happy, believing that Nd5 is not a good move. I'm not sure either color has enough to win, but this is certainly very unblanced which means a program can mis-evaluate it easily.
Wow sorry I had the wrong position on my board(as you could see from the diagram I posted). Qh4 was the move. Sorry for my confusion.
Intended position was
21. Qh4 if Kc7
22. Qf4+ Kd8
and now 23. Nd5
sorry again for my blunder.
I think 23. Nd5 Kc8 is best here.
Komodo likes 2 different responses if you take the Bishop, so it will take me some time to sort them out. It will probably be either axb5 or Ra7 assuming you take the bishop.
Ok, here is my move IF you play the italicized moves:
Don wrote:
Komodo sees this as very close about 0.05 advantage for white. Other programs may see a big advantage for white, I don't really know.
When you say, "playable" I think you mean that a human would be happy playing this against another human? Or that it's easy to draw?
The primary thing I'm trying to refute here is a statement someone made, and I don't think it was you, that white easily wins even without the TN move Nxe6 that started this discussion. I think I have already proved that. I don't mind being proved wrong however, I could be. So we can continue to play this out (or try a different white move) or we can stop if you agree at any point that it's more or less playable for both sides.
When I said optically pleasing I am thinking as a human player, in most cases white could get 2 or 3 passers in the queenside but engines evaluate this as almost even as you have said. Maybe We could differentiate between the 2 groups humans and engines. For engines maybe the only move that wins is Nxe6 but for a human against other human there other paths for victory.
I suppose you mean 24.Nd5 Bxd5 25. Qg5 Kc8 26. Qxd5 Ra7, I am correct?
If this is correct then 26. Qd4
[d] 1nk4r/r2n3p/p5p1/1B6/3Q4/8/PPP3PP/2K5 b - - 0 13
Don wrote:
Komodo sees this as very close about 0.05 advantage for white. Other programs may see a big advantage for white, I don't really know.
When you say, "playable" I think you mean that a human would be happy playing this against another human? Or that it's easy to draw?
The primary thing I'm trying to refute here is a statement someone made, and I don't think it was you, that white easily wins even without the TN move Nxe6 that started this discussion. I think I have already proved that. I don't mind being proved wrong however, I could be. So we can continue to play this out (or try a different white move) or we can stop if you agree at any point that it's more or less playable for both sides.
When I said optically pleasing I am thinking as a human player, in most cases white could get 2 or 3 passers in the queenside but engines evaluate this as almost even as you have said. Maybe We could differentiate between the 2 groups humans and engines. For engines maybe the only move that wins is Nxe6 but for a human against other human there other paths for victory.
This should be very easy to defend as black. Black could give up the knight for 2 pawns and still have a drawable position. In fact this is probably why Komodo thinks it's even.
Your assumption is that a human would play sub-optimally as black and easily as white. That is all speculation that we cannot debate by playing out lines. Would we have to throw in a sub-optimal move every once in a while to prove that white has better winning chances? The only thing we have to work with is the position itself to determine if this is a draw.
Based on the lines I have seen there are a couple of moves that black must play accurately, and I think I agree with you that it's easier for white. But at the position we are now at I do not believe it is particularly difficult for black to draw. If black can win pawns with his heavy material advantage it may even be possible for black to win if white does not play accurately, so from this position I'm not sure there is distinction - chances are equal in my humble opinion.
My assumption is that is easier to attack than to defend but grand master play have evolved a lot through years than maybe this position is easily defendable for them. As I am not a master if I was playing the black pieces I should have lost already.(Well with engine help maybe not)
Anyway We came to the crux of the position, is this position really equal? (Queen and 4 pawns against Rook, 2 knights and 2 pawns) I do not understand why engines do not want to push white queenside pawns and start making all kind of queen moves. Maybe they see that black start harassing the white king, don't know. One of the possibilities is to exchange the black's b pawn for the h pawn and leave white with 3 passers on the queenside. This is the position that merits more analysis.
Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:....NXe6 is the crushing fast winning move but it's not the only one leading to victory....
I do insist that Black has an inferior position and choosing the right path will do the trick....it will be a slower procedure though....
Dr.D
I still think I can defend with Komodo's help and I am willing to play this out with you starting with any move other than Nxe6 which I agree is a sure victory.
tano-urayoan wrote:My assumption is that is easier to attack than to defend but grand master play have evolved a lot through years than maybe this position is easily defendable for them. As I am not a master if I was playing the black pieces I should have lost already.(Well with engine help maybe not)
Anyway We came to the crux of the position, is this position really equal? (Queen and 4 pawns against Rook, 2 knights and 2 pawns) I do not understand why engines do not want to push white queenside pawns and start making all kind of queen moves. Maybe they see that black start harassing the white king, don't know. One of the possibilities is to exchange the black's b pawn for the h pawn and leave white with 3 passers on the queenside. This is the position that merits more analysis.
With reasonable play only white could possibly win this due to the pawns, but I think that is not likely unless black plays badly. After axb5 it's a single queen doing it all. And white does not yet have a single passed pawn although it should not be difficult to create one. The 2 knights can defend each other and set up blockades and I don't think it's particularly difficult, but I am not that strong a player. I think black can even give up one of the knights at the right time and still draw if he gets a couple of pawns for it but I DON'T KNOW that for sure as I don't know what theory says about Q vs R+N with pawns on the board. It may be that white has good chances, especially if pawns are on both sides of the board but I am speculating.
I have played this out many times at different levels (simulating monte-carlo analysis) and no game has yet ended in a win for either color if black responds to 14. Re1 with Qd6 - but Qc5 which is plausible at lower levels is probably losing.
