Don wrote:
Ok, I think that is the best move anyway.
My response is Be7.
Position after 14. Re1 Qd6 15. Bb5 Be7
Again 16. Nxe6 looks strong. I think We enter a forced sequence in which white ends with Queen and 4 pawns against Rook + 2 knights and 2 or 3 pawns, I am using Critter 0.9 which evaluates the final position .82 but optically looks white has a serious advantage.
Ok, we will try Nxe6, give you are response in about 8-10 hours.
I might as well give you the obvious response now:
15. Bxb5 Be7 16. Nxe6 fxe6
Here are some if/then moves. If you play the underlined moves I will respond with the given move, otherwise give me your alternative.
Don wrote: 15. Bxb5 Be7 16. Nxe6 fxe6
...
Komodo definitely thinks 16. Nxe6 is not the best move and sees the score as being pretty close to even. It thinks 16. Ne4 is a better trying giving white a clear advantage. Maybe I will learn something about Komodo's evaluation here.
Hi Don!
For sure it's a very tricky position and I really think that 14.Nxe6 is a very fine novelty, probably the one and only very best move, even if it is not so easy to proof because the well known alternatives 14.Bxb5 (with 17.Nxe6 arising in some examples) and 14.Re1 have had some high rated games with white wins too.
14.Nxe6 might not get so many examples of high class games simply because the whole variant might not be played by masters with Black at all any more just because of this novelty.
I for myself would not dare to reach the 14. move in this variant any longer as Black, (as a matter of fact I did not even till now ) knowing 14.Nxe6 now
It's obvious that 14. Nxe6 is the best, I don't see any proof however that Nxe6 is just another way to win an already won game, which is a hypothesis we are exploring. Do you think you can win with any other move? I don't.
Probably not possible to prove, but I think it's enough to show that it's not clear. In the "test game" we are playing (based on 14. Bxb5) it appears by Komodo's evaluation to be close to equal. There are alternatively moves that can be tried in the test sequence and I'm not white has chose the best, but we can explore them too.
Evidently, from other comments about Critters analysis, the line we are looking at is either ok or bad depending on which program you use. Since the position is very unbalance in this line that is to be expected, it will depend a lot on how each program evaluations a queen vs 2 rooks and varying numbers of pawns for a piece, etc ....
In all the lines I see black is able to unleash his rooks and get good play.
Don wrote: 15. Bxb5 Be7 16. Nxe6 fxe6
...
Komodo definitely thinks 16. Nxe6 is not the best move and sees the score as being pretty close to even. It thinks 16. Ne4 is a better trying giving white a clear advantage. Maybe I will learn something about Komodo's evaluation here.
Hi Don!
For sure it's a very tricky position and I really think that 14.Nxe6 is a very fine novelty, probably the one and only very best move, even if it is not so easy to proof because the well known alternatives 14.Bxb5 (with 17.Nxe6 arising in some examples) and 14.Re1 have had some high rated games with white wins too.
14.Nxe6 might not get so many examples of high class games simply because the whole variant might not be played by masters with Black at all any more just because of this novelty.
I for myself would not dare to reach the 14. move in this variant any longer as Black, (as a matter of fact I did not even till now ) knowing 14.Nxe6 now
It's obvious that 14. Nxe6 is the best, I don't see any proof however that Nxe6 is just another way to win an already won game, which is a hypothesis we are exploring. Do you think you can win with any other move? I don't.
Probably not possible to prove, but I think it's enough to show that it's not clear. In the "test game" we are playing (based on 14. Bxb5) it appears by Komodo's evaluation to be close to equal. There are alternatively moves that can be tried in the test sequence and I'm not white has chose the best, but we can explore them too.
Evidently, from other comments about Critters analysis, the line we are looking at is either ok or bad depending on which program you use. Since the position is very unbalance in this line that is to be expected, it will depend a lot on how each program evaluations a queen vs 2 rooks and varying numbers of pawns for a piece, etc ....
In all the lines I see black is able to unleash his rooks and get good play.
I let Komodo play out this position at a very high level, game in 3 hours plus 1 minute increment and the game ended in a draw. I'm starting another game after forcing in 14. Re1 Qd6 to see how this plays out. I think Komodo will play this out differently as it did not like the Nxe6 move when played later but thought another move was clearly better. That does mean Komodo was right, but I want to give Komodo a chance to justify it's choice and win with white.
A lot of the moves are more or less forced, but there are some decisions points here.
Bottom line of course is that 14. Nex6 appears to be a genuine TN and other choices may not win (and my assertion still to be disproved is that if you don't play Nex6 black can draw.)
I agree with all this conditional moves. I will post my reply later thank you.
Let me know what you come up with.
I played a second playout game and it came out a draw too. This one featured 16. Ne4 instead of 16. Nxe6 and I think white had a better game but it still ended in a draw.
Very interesting work. I think it could be easier if Komodo had a persistent hash system. Then, this position could be used in a bullet vs. the other top engines. The resulting hash file could give us all the answers about the position.
rodolfoleoni wrote:Very interesting work. I think it could be easier if Komodo had a persistent hash system. Then, this position could be used in a bullet vs. the other top engines. The resulting hash file could give us all the answers about the position.
Recent versions of Komodo have improvements in the persistence of data.
) knowing 14.Nxe6 now