how far is too far: houdini for sell?

[Terry McCracken]

I thought there was considerable evidence that houdini was a close derivative of rybka. Now it is for sell? Whatever your view of rybka (legal or derivitive), there is 0 doubt about Houdini being unoriginal. sigh.

If only we could see a return of crafty to number 1, or the program of any honest programmer.

Plagiarism rewarded.

Best
J

I did not buy houdini but I see no problem with buying non original programs.

Ok to buy "stolen merchandise" as well? I mean, YOU didn't actually steal it...
Wait, you might get charged with "receiving stolen merchandise" anyway... "caveat emptor".

Non original is not the same as stolen and
I see no proof that houdini is illegal.

Uri

I will repeat. Houdini came from Robo*. IF, and not a very big IF, robo is found to have fruit code, and we KNOW it contains Vas code, copying any of that code is certainly a criminal act, because it is a clear copyright infringement.

IF, and that is a GIGANTIC IF, houdini contains no Fruit or Rybka code, it will be OK. But Robolito certainly contains both Fruit and Rybka code. And that is a problem in that one can not then take the robo source and use it as if nothing is wrong, because that is very similar to receiving stolen property and then reselling it. That IS also a criminal act...

Just wait a bit. Took a while to prove Rybka was based on Fruit/Crafty. Give it a little more time for more evidence to be presented. Won't be long until the cat is out of the bag, again. And this won't be the last such case, either...

Bob says:
"But Robolito certainly contains both Fruit and Rybka code"

What made you flip flop in this area (Robbo v. Rybka)? You agree with VR all of the sudden? You abandoned the alternative that Ippo RE from itself?

By the way, you could not find Fruit in R3 and now you assert that Robbo has Fruit code?

Miguel

Miguel, keep up.

[mwyoung]

Not when you're caught red-handed!!! Duh!

Sorry to school you again, but yes even when you are caught red-handed.
You are not real good in understanding this law thingy are you.

School me....what could I learn from you???

If I'm an officer of the law and I catch you shooting people then you're not only caught red-handed, you're dead! Forget law, it escapes you!

You are really off the reservation here. But lets school you again in the law.

If someone is seen by millions of people shooting and trying to killing people in the street, and the suspect is not killed by the police.

At the triall:

Is that suspect presumed innocent....yes.

Could the suspect by found not guilty....yes.

UNITED STATES V. JOHN W. HINCKLEY JR. (1982)

Terry Lets get back on the reservation.

[geots]

Hi Richard,

no doubt about it.

What should a rating list do with it in your opinion?

The SWCR is very good as it is. It was a right decision to include Houdini (despite its origin), and it was a right thing to not exclude Rybka. Please don't give up just because of stupid wars in our community.

P.S. Did you consider making a poll about the future of SWCR?

I see you feel the best way to get rid of a strong engine is to play it head-up and beat it. That sure gets my respect. Damn shame we don't have more around here like you. You got more character in your little finger than some will ever hope to see in themselves.


Best,

gts

[Darkmoon]

I really do think it is time to move on and begin to allow for innovation to supersede inquisition. If the authors of Ippolit refuse to come out of the closet -that's on them.

Time to give Mr Houdart his kudos for topping the charts. He did it! I'm hoping Vas will do it again soon as well;I'd like to see Komodo go as far as Don and Larry can take the Dragon.

That will be fun to watch programmers focus on the development instead of-inquisition.

I have had all that I can stand to hear from the representatives of the ICGA. They did their thing -let them go their way. If they find it soothing to complain- I would ignore them, and sooner or later their crumblings will dissipate into shop talk.

There is only one guy that I can see not capable of minding his own business -and, no doubt he'll try and stir up trouble.But , then hopefully he'll be recognized as nothing more than an old crank and posters will not feed the troll.

[mwyoung]

Not when you're caught red-handed!!! Duh!

Sorry to school you again, but yes even when you are caught red-handed.
You are not real good in understanding this law thingy are you.

School me....what could I learn from you???

If I'm an officer of the law and I catch you shooting people then you're not only caught red-handed, you're dead! Forget law, it escapes you!

You are really off the reservation here. But lets school you again in the law.

If someone is seen by millions of people shooting and trying to killing people in the street, and the suspect is not killed by the police.

At the triall:

Is that suspect presumed innocent....yes.

Could the suspect by found not guilty....yes.

UNITED STATES V. JOHN W. HINCKLEY JR. (1982)

Terry Lets get back on the reservation.

You're a complete jack-off!

Thats all you got in response......

[Terry McCracken]

I really do think it is time to move on and begin to allow for innovation to supersede inquisition. If the authors of Ippolit refuse to come out of the closet -that's on them.

Time to give Mr Houdart his kudos for topping the charts. He did it! I'm hoping Vas will do it again soon as well;I'd like to see Komodo go as far as Don and Larry can take the Dragon.

That will be fun to watch programmers focus on the development instead of-inquisition.

I have had all that I can stand to hear from the representatives of the ICGA. They did their thing -let them go their way. If they find it soothing to complain- I would ignore them, and sooner or later their crumblings will dissipate into shop talk.

There is only one guy that I can see not capable of minding his own business -and, no doubt he'll try and stir up trouble.But , then hopefully he'll be recognized as nothing more than an old crank and posters will not feed the troll.

Unbelievable! The only Old Crank/s are Chris Whittington and Ed Schroder NOT Dr. Robert Hyatt!

Go to hell all of you!

[mwyoung]

Not when you're caught red-handed!!! Duh!

Sorry to school you again, but yes even when you are caught red-handed.
You are not real good in understanding this law thingy are you.

School me....what could I learn from you???

If I'm an officer of the law and I catch you shooting people then you're not only caught red-handed, you're dead! Forget law, it escapes you!

You are really off the reservation here. But lets school you again in the law.

If someone is seen by millions of people shooting and trying to killing people in the street, and the suspect is not killed by the police.

At the triall:

Is that suspect presumed innocent....yes.

Could the suspect by found not guilty....yes.

UNITED STATES V. JOHN W. HINCKLEY JR. (1982)

Terry Lets get back on the reservation.

You're a complete jack-off!

Thats all you got in response......

Facts are beyond you! You're a troll! And yeah, a jack-off!

I have been talking facts, and in response you have called me a jack-off a number of times as well as other in CCC I have seen.

But I keep it in good humor, because the more you talk the more of a point I make.

So don't censor him, keep him talking for all to see.

[Frank Quisinsky]

Hi Roberto,

but all used the work Norman do here
Why all the people which used sources by Norman don't use the first PD sources by unkown persons on the Igorit webapge for his own work?

Not significant?

I think very significant for the all the others which used the work Norman do here.

Computer chess at the moment is a total chaos. So many others used well known ideas from open sources. The most, don't speak about it and this is wrong. I like the programmers of Critter, Naum or Chiron because the programmers are honest and give us the right information. That is the way the programmers today have to go today.

- I used parts of sources from the work Norman do with the Igorit sources. Or I used parts of the sources from the work Fabian do with Fruit. I used ideas from the work the Stockfish team do. -

I can't know that older programs will get a ELO jumping from more as 100 points without all these works. Why the programmer are don't able for such things before "newer strong sources" are available?

Much of this programmers signature the open letter.

Fact is:
Sources are open and we have to live with it. New ideas to open sources can be good for computer chess and why not the programmers should try out this. But each one should be honest to each other or the chaos will be bigger and bigger ... produced by programmers, not by the users, people which created a rating list.

The programmers should thinking about it.
Should be thinking about which information goes public.

A new order and a new way computer chess have to go.
The topic Rybka / Ipp should be ended. If programmers don't like to go the right way, no problem ... I am sure this group of programmers will be find many fans too. But the programmer which go the right way should be more support in the future.

Best
Frank

[Frank Quisinsky]

RH?
Robert Hyatt, joking

Robert, Vas lost for some reasons the code of Rybka 3 if I understand. So long he can give not a clear proof that IPP based on his own engine, so long all is right. This isn't an order for us to gave the proofs.

I can understand the discuss Rybka / Fruit. But we speaking about things which are 5 years old. ICGA and programmers have to give a reaction for 5 years and not today.

Situation with IPP sources is two years old.
Windmill!

No proofs from Vas, this is fact.
Compare Robbolito with Fruit, that we can do today.

Do you know how many others programmers used sources by Fabian too? Which one is the next?

You are a good fighter Bob but all the discussions will be go in Nirvana. We can make the World not better, I have to learn it again and again.

The situation with RH seems to be very clear.

If you say:
Fruit = Rybka = IPP
You forgot a lot in the time before Fruit is available.

GnuChess =
Crafty =
Pepito =
Phalanx =
TSCP =
And so one ...

I wrote very hard messages to you, yes.
I have respect for you and what you do Bob, you can believe it.

But we are speaking from
Wind Mills

I believe in this times a completly new generation will be build. Perhaps the older one should support it. Too many sources are free available and the first time, programmers do the most work each one can used today ... is over. All good ideas are well known. To develops new ideas today isn't easy. People try out all the open sources and try to add own ideas.

OK, but I like more the good old time.
The good and old programmers which do so many good things.
But perhaps, this time is over!

Best
Frank

[Dirt]

I thought there was considerable evidence that houdini was a close derivative of rybka. Now it is for sell? Whatever your view of rybka (legal or derivitive), there is 0 doubt about Houdini being unoriginal. sigh.

If only we could see a return of crafty to number 1, or the program of any honest programmer.

Plagiarism rewarded.

Best
J

I did not buy houdini but I see no problem with buying non original programs.

Ok to buy "stolen merchandise" as well? I mean, YOU didn't actually steal it...
Wait, you might get charged with "receiving stolen merchandise" anyway... "caveat emptor".

Don't give us the BS about you not having anything against Robert Houdart. It is clear why you took the thread down after Roger said the thread could stay up.

"I don't even KNOW him, so there is no way to like/dislike him".

But you know him well enough to suggest he stole code......

Bob you think he stole code. So you will use your power as moderator to punish him. Even if this means overriding the other moderators .... Yes or No?

Your actions say YES.

From the charter:
Once a member gains access to the message board, he may read all messages and post new or response messages with the proviso that these new or response messages:
........................................................ Are not flagrant commercial exhortations.

It was a logical step to combine the best GUI (Aquarium) with the strongest engine (Houdini), Houdini Aquarium is the result.

As there is no more evidence that Aquarium is “the best GUI” than there is that Pepsi is the best Cola, when either claim is made by the manufacturer, it can be classified in the “flagrant commercial exhortations” category

Houdini Aquarium is available at a (in my opinion) very attractive price,

This is an advertising statement, how else can it be classified, when made by the manufacturer? As such, it also falls within the category of "flagrant commercial exhortations".

I know of no no other hobby in which you can obtain the world's best for so little money.

What he admits to be his opinion is tendentious and when made by the manufacturer of the product, can only be considered to be an advertisement that, once again, falls within the category of “flagrant commercial exhortations”.

Three flagrant exhortations within a 5 sentence announcement. A bit rich.

I don't find any of those to be flagrant. "Flagrant exhortations" is uncommon phrasing, and I believe those words are designed to be interpreted narrowly.

As a practical matter, a commercial author should be allowed to announce the availability of each version of his program once. He could include a link to where it can be purchased, but probably not the price or any discounts available. I see no reason he should not also have an opinion about what is the best interface, even if it is wrong.