how far is too far: houdini for sell?

[Terry McCracken]

But this has nothing to do with Robert Houdart. Robert never signed anything that said his program is original. Robert Houdart never played in tournament and took money saying is programs is 100% his own. I understand your problem with Vas.

But your problem Don Quixote even if all you say is true, Robert Houdart did not commit a crime. His product is legal.

If I am wrong, I will ask you give us the name(s) of the person who Robert Houdart stole code from.

And why those person(s) have not made a charge against Robert Houdart.


Bob "Don Quixote" Hyatt tell the CCC community why you are not taking Robert Hourdart to court. Since you have all the goods on him as you claim. You know he has money from Houdini.......so tell us why.

Robert Houdart has REPEATEDLY stated that houdini is 100% original code. Just like Vas. Yet that is false. I DO have a problem with liars. And he is clearly a liar, because he has made provably false statements, REPEATEDLY.

The most likely names are Fabien and Vas. Give everyone time to process the evidence, perhaps you will get what you don't want here...

Then Bob if Fabien or Vas make a claim against Robert Houdart. Then you can start talking about crimes, until that time stop suggesting Robert Houdart is guilty of a crime.

Copying code that is copyrighted IS a crime. You can't use the argument that Robo* is public domain, if IT contains copied code. It would also be an illegal copy that violates copyright.

If you violate copyright law (of which the GPL is a part) then that is a criminal act with potential criminal punishment if it is pursued.

Bob no one has come forward to say there was a copyright violation. You have no standing to make such a claim, and can not. It is not your copyright.

Bob you do have a hard on for Robert Houdart and Houdini, and you need to get over it.

You can not be judge and jury here Bob, Robert Houdart is not subject to ICGA rules.

Mark Young shutup it's a bogus strawman that you keep repeating ad nauseam.

Hello Terry nice to see you again. How are you doing today...better I hope.

BTW You never did tell me what troll freind you could not find in google. Could you tell me what you mean, or did you head clear long enough that you were able to find it in google.

Mark, just reading his useless responses is bad enough, but to reply to them................

You call me useless? That's really rich. You are really a piece of ****, now fill in the blank.





Did you find the first letter?




W

[Terry McCracken]

This is simple professor. You are making a legal claim against Robert Houdart and Houdini. You have no standing anywhere to make such a claim.

The charter does not say you can attack a member here by suggesting they are a criminal because Bob Hyatt thinks he is right.

Again you need to respect the charter. Suggesting someone is a criminal is against the Charter no matter how much you think you are right.


Do not contain personal and/or libelous attacks on others ...Unless Bob thinks he is justified in doing so.

Hello Mark,

I think you need to analyse a little deeper.

An engine is examined and it is found (I am not saying that it is so in the Houdini case or not) to have copied recognisable code from somewhere else.

Precisely what legal claim is being made? It is a technical claim - the engine is a clone/derivative etc. Nothing legal at all.

As for the idea of standing - I am lost here. Several engines have been exposed as clones on Talkchess. What standing in your opinion is required to make such a statement?

That the thing is a clone is a technical assessment. That a law was broken is up to a court to decide. I do not see why you are confusing the two things here.

Saying an engine is a clone or derivative is neither libel nor a personal attack. In fact, keeping the language focussed on the engine and not the person of Robert Houdart is probably as impersonal as one can get.

Later.

I don't care what you call Houdini, but to suggest that Robert Houdart is guilty of a crime. Takes the attack to a new level. This is what Bob Hyatt is suggesting.

The fact is Houdini is a legal product, so why is Bob suggesting if you buy Houdini that you may have commited a crime.

What gives Bob Hyatt the right or (standing) to make such a claim of guilt. Bob is not a officer of a court of law or a judge, Bob is not a plantiff in a case against Robert Houdart. Nor could Bob Hyatt make a charge against Robert Houdart or Houdini in a court of law. Because he does not own the code he is claiming is stole. (Bob Hyatt has no standing)

Fact: No one with standing has made a charge against Robert Houdart or Houdini. If so Roger please give us their name(s).

So why are you letting Bob Hyatt suggest otherwise. By suggesting Robert Houdart is a criminal, not only that. Bob Hyatt suggest customers that bought Houdini 2.0 my be criminals for buying a legal chess product.

Is is not Bob Hyatt who claimed he did not want another Houdini flame war? Roger is not Bob Hyatt fanning the flames with his statements?


This is clearly against the CCC Charter

I did not buy houdini but I see no problem with buying non original programs.

Bob Hyatt...

Ok to buy "stolen merchandise" as well? I mean, YOU didn't actually steal it...
Wait, you might get charged with "receiving stolen merchandise" anyway... "caveat emptor".

May not be exactly legal for me to buy Houdini???!!! Receiving stolen merchandise? I had already bought it, and when I read this I immediately bought a second copy and will give to someone who wants a copy, but can't afford it. Robert will get his name and email address when I find someone who isn't afraid of breaking a teeny weeny law every so often.


Alcatraz regards,

gts

You are contemptible but somehow you think you're taking a stand against Big Bad Bob, delusive.

[Terry McCracken]

I thought there was considerable evidence that houdini was a close derivative of rybka. Now it is for sell? Whatever your view of rybka (legal or derivitive), there is 0 doubt about Houdini being unoriginal. sigh.

If only we could see a return of crafty to number 1, or the program of any honest programmer.

Plagiarism rewarded.

Best
J

I did not buy houdini but I see no problem with buying non original programs.

Ok to buy "stolen merchandise" as well? I mean, YOU didn't actually steal it...
Wait, you might get charged with "receiving stolen merchandise" anyway... "caveat emptor".

Non original is not the same as stolen and
I see no proof that houdini is illegal.

Uri

Uri, I cannot believe there is anyone living and breathing who can come up with more illogical and silly analogies than Hyatt.

He asked you if it was ok to buy "stolen merchandise". But he wasn't even thinking about Houdini when he said that. Of course not. Not a pro at semantics, either.

Every program that he mentions in that vein, if I don't have it loaded- I will within the hour.

[Terry McCracken]

I thought there was considerable evidence that houdini was a close derivative of rybka. Now it is for sell? Whatever your view of rybka (legal or derivitive), there is 0 doubt about Houdini being unoriginal. sigh.

If only we could see a return of crafty to number 1, or the program of any honest programmer.

Plagiarism rewarded.

Best
J

I did not buy houdini but I see no problem with buying non original programs.

Ok to buy "stolen merchandise" as well? I mean, YOU didn't actually steal it...
Wait, you might get charged with "receiving stolen merchandise" anyway... "caveat emptor".

Don't give us the BS about you not having anything against Robert Houdart. It is clear why you took the thread down after Roger said the thread could stay up.

"I don't even KNOW him, so there is no way to like/dislike him".

But you know him well enough to suggest he stole code......

Bob you think he stole code. So you will use your power as moderator to punish him. Even if this means overriding the other moderators .... Yes or No?

Your actions say YES.

First, I didn't override other moderators. You know nothing about the issue. I sent them an email, Roger said he preferred if it remain but be locked, that was done. Any other fiction you'd like to share now???

I see you did not answer the question. You are clearly bias against Robert Houdart and Houdini. To the point you are breaking the CCC charter as a moderator. You are a bias advacate when it comes to Houdini and Robert Houdart. You need to let the other moderators moderate Houdini and Robert Houdart. Since by your own writings you are clearly BIAS.
And causing Houdini flame wars you say you dislike so much by such statements.



3. Do not contain personal and/or libelous attacks on others


"I did not buy houdini but I see no problem with buying non original programs. "

Bob Hyatt wrote:

"Ok to buy "stolen merchandise" as well? I mean, YOU didn't actually steal it...
Wait, you might get charged with "receiving stolen merchandise" anyway... "caveat emptor".

I have not broken any charter point as a moderator. I received two complaints. I looked at the beginning of the thread and found a complaint there. I simply moved it aside and sent the other two moderators an email to get their view. Nothing more, nothing less. You need to grow up and stop trying to find conspiracy everywhere. The thread is back. I assume Roger locked it as he wanted to. End of the story.

I do not like or dislike Houdart, don't know him. I certainly do not like his ethical values. He copied robolito and then later claims his code is completely original. Doesn't make me delete his posts, nor follow him around trying to lure him into a discussion so I can ban him. I've not moderated a single post by him, and have had very little communication with him via posts. Your suggestions are nonsense, with absolutely no evidence to back them up. So try again...

As far as my quote goes, it is DEAD right. Houdini contains copied code. Since Vas claimed robo* was based on Rybka 3, Houdini likely contains both fruit code AND original code Vas added. Both of which are clear copyright violations. You don't like that? Tough. It is simply the truth... Sometimes the truth is unpleasant. But it is ALWAYS the truth.

This is simple professor. You are making a legal claim against Robert Houdart and Houdini. You have no standing anywhere to make such a claim.

The charter does not say you can attack a member here by suggesting they are a criminal because Bob Hyatt thinks he is right.

Again you need to respect the charter. Suggesting someone is a criminal is against the Charter no matter how much you think you are right.


Do not contain personal and/or libelous attacks on others ...Unless Bob thinks he is justified in doing so.

I simply state facts. You are EXACTLY in the same boat as the few remaining Rybka fans. Sorry that you don't like FACTS, but fact is, houdini is based on Robolito. Ton of evidence to support that, more coming each day. Learn to live with it, because it is NOT going away...

Bob you don't know what you are talking about. I am no fan of Rybka, ask Mr. Banks

But this has nothing to do with Robert Houdart. Robert never signed anything that said his program is original. Robert Houdart never played in tournament and took money saying is programs is 100% his own. I understand your problem with Vas.

But your problem Don Quixote even if all you say is true, Robert Houdart did not commit a crime. His product is legal.

If I am wrong, I will ask you give us the name(s) of the person who Robert Houdart stole code from.

And why those person(s) have not made a charge against Robert Houdart.


Bob "Don Quixote" Hyatt tell the CCC community why you are not taking Robert Hourdart to court. Since you have all the goods on him as you claim. You know he has money from Houdini.......so tell us why.

Well I am a fan of Rybka as well as Houdini. If Hyatt is critical of it and/or its author- I will immediately buy it. It is then a no-lose proposition.

The "few remaining Rybka fans". He only wishes.

No, it's not fans but fools who defend Vasik to the point of madness or idiocy.

I like Rybka as well....it's the Fishy evolution and that piece of Forbidden Fruit that makes people with a conscience gag and choke.

[Terry McCracken]

nothing in Crafty would be of any use to someone heading for the top. If he needed help from Crafty, he was screwed from the start.

I have no idea what you guys are arguing about, but this is just not true. I have not looked at the Crafty code for years, but I remember things in both eval and search from back when I did I suspect are superior to the strongest programs even today. I would not be surprised if the same was true of many original programs.

-Sam

Then by what you say, one would think if you removed Critter, Stockfish, Komodo, Strelka, Belka, Robbo, Spike, Spark, Thinker, Toga, etc. etc. etc., then Crafty 32 bit 1CPU might slip into the top 30 or so of freeware engines, albeit near the bottom.

But with the logo you got there, I will agree with what you tell me to.

You don't happen to have any other extras lying around that aren't in any lists, do you?


Best,

George

I don't know what your saying, and what logos have to do with anything. I am author of Hannibal, which is around the same strength as a few of the engines on your list (Spike, Spark, Thinker, Toga) and am just presenting you my technical opinion. Just as an example, I would guess no engine on the list you just gave is as good as Crafty at BOTH static analysis of pawn races, and SMP search. Unfortunately, chess programming is complicated enough that those engines would not necessarily be better by cutting and pasting a piece of crafty associated with those features, nevertheless I suspect Crafty surpasses all those engines in either one area or the other.

Go ahead and call Bob a jerk if you want too, he is pretty thick skinned. It is no skin off my back if you want to list his litany of misdeeds ad-nasuem. I just wanted to correct a common technical misconception: many people seem to think because an engine is significantly worse on a rating list, there is nothing for the big boys to learn from it. In my opinion, this is just wrong (and probably tangential to whatever your original main point was anyway).


-Sam

You and I are talking about 2 entirely different things. The latest Crafty is certainly no slouch- but I doubt you will find any grandmasters using it for analysis. I don't really know who the "big boys" are- but I assume you are either referring to top grandmasters or programmers with engines in the top 10 or so.

You have me at another disadvantage, because I'm not quite sure what "tangential" means. Unless it comes from the word "tangent", then it's a new one for me.

If you or any other programmer has "hit the wall" as they say, I would not think most of them would be as interested in Crafty's static pawn races as they would in how the hell the guy is getting so many elos out of Robbolito. Just like most grandmasters are using Houdini for analysis as we speak. In place of their trusted Fritz- which has always been one of my favs.

I can say for sure I have never called Hyatt a "jerk"- simply because it's a useless term that has no meaning as far as I can tell. In fact, this may be the first thread I have ever used it in.

I have to admit I don't have any use for the way Hyatt uses semantics and deception to try and get out of tight spots- about 100 examples of that are on the Rybka forum. If you want a second opinion on that- ask Miguel Ballicora or Sven Schule.

And BTW, I know you are the author of Hannibal, and I know its exact elo strength in 32bit 1CPU. Strong and impressive piece of work. Logos don't have much to do with anything- tho I like the one you use here, and wondered if you had a few others we have not seen on any of the makers' sights. Excuse me for inquiring.

I am 100% sure that my feelings on the Rybka issue, the Houdini issue, the Robbolito and other ippos issues- mirror exactly the feelings and opinions of Uri Blass, Miguel and Sven.

What I am not too enthused about is when Uri makes the statement that he doesn't see the problem using non-original engines- some may not agree, but they leave it as his choice. When I make the same statement I'm called an idiot and and I'm insane.

And the same ones who accuse me of just following Miguel, Sven, Ed and Chris are the exact same ones who when asked how they know Vas is guilty, say "because Bob Hyatt says so". At the very least it is hypocritical.

But I probably should not have used the phrase "not too enthused", because I really couldn't care less what a group of people- some of who have never even seen a GUI or loaded even 1 engine- think of my opinions.

The biggest difference is that I respect the right of anyone to have any stance they choose on the "copy, clone, took too much" issue. On here, I can have mine, but if it doesn't = theirs- I'm an idiot, a troublemaker, a parasite and insane.

Just pointing out the difference, not that I care or read much of anything into it.

Chris is a known psychopath and manipulates people who he can and in your case and Ed's it's easy for him. I can't speak for Miguel or Sven.

Oh yeah, there is use for the word jerk.....

[bob]

But this has nothing to do with Robert Houdart. Robert never signed anything that said his program is original. Robert Houdart never played in tournament and took money saying is programs is 100% his own. I understand your problem with Vas.

But your problem Don Quixote even if all you say is true, Robert Houdart did not commit a crime. His product is legal.

If I am wrong, I will ask you give us the name(s) of the person who Robert Houdart stole code from.

And why those person(s) have not made a charge against Robert Houdart.


Bob "Don Quixote" Hyatt tell the CCC community why you are not taking Robert Hourdart to court. Since you have all the goods on him as you claim. You know he has money from Houdini.......so tell us why.

Robert Houdart has REPEATEDLY stated that houdini is 100% original code. Just like Vas. Yet that is false. I DO have a problem with liars. And he is clearly a liar, because he has made provably false statements, REPEATEDLY.

The most likely names are Fabien and Vas. Give everyone time to process the evidence, perhaps you will get what you don't want here...

Then Bob if Fabien or Vas make a claim against Robert Houdart. Then you can start talking about crimes, until that time stop suggesting Robert Houdart is guilty of a crime.

Copying code that is copyrighted IS a crime. You can't use the argument that Robo* is public domain, if IT contains copied code. It would also be an illegal copy that violates copyright.

If you violate copyright law (of which the GPL is a part) then that is a criminal act with potential criminal punishment if it is pursued.

Bob no one has come forward to say there was a copyright violation. You have no standing to make such a claim, and can not. It is not your copyright.

Bob you do have a hard on for Robert Houdart and Houdini, and you need to get over it.

You can not be judge and jury here Bob, Robert Houdart is not subject to ICGA rules.

Let me point out, Rybka versions prior to version 4 used Code from Crafty (rotated bitboard stuff). Are you CERTAIN no versions of robo* nor Houdini copied THAT code when Rybka was RE'ed???

Let me get this straight. Rybka 3, which you have told me 4 times you never looked at, contains code from Crafty. Or did you change your mind for the purposes of this thread? At least we know that would not have helped Vas- nothing in Crafty would be of any use to someone heading for the top. If he needed help from Crafty, he was screwed from the start.

If you would just learn to read. Rybka 1.0 beta has rotated bitboards from Crafty. And Vas had previously admitted that. He also previously stated that he converted to Pradu's code in Rybka 4. So, what is your conclusion? Did he switch to some OTHER bitboard technique after 1.0 beta? There was nothing better than rotated around at the time.

You can believe what you want. Wait, you ALWAYS believe Vas, so perhaps you will concede that Rybka through the last 3.x version contained rotated bitboard code from Crafty...

[Rebel]

He started with GNUchess, and rewrote it completely. Nothing wrong with that. I remember clearly that he was really interested in the GNUchess move generator and how he improved it. I do not think my memory is playing me tricks:

http://chessgames.com/player/ferret

Your memory is fine

EDIT - I see Adam beat me.

[bob]

Rybka 1.0 beta has rotated bitboards from Crafty. And Vas had previously admitted that. He also previously stated that he converted to Pradu's code in Rybka 4. So, what is your conclusion? Did he switch to some OTHER bitboard technique after 1.0 beta? There was nothing better than rotated around at the time.

One thing is unclear to me. Is the rotated bitboard technique (whatever it is) unique to Crafty? Are there not other engines with rotated bitboard technique different from that of Crafty?

Yes. But Vas specifically said that he took that code from Crafty, several years ago... During the RE stuff, some of the Crafty rotated bitboard initialization and arrays were found (such as the array that tells how many bits to move a diagonal to the rightmost 8 bits, etc...)

[geots]

I thought there was considerable evidence that houdini was a close derivative of rybka. Now it is for sell? Whatever your view of rybka (legal or derivitive), there is 0 doubt about Houdini being unoriginal. sigh.

If only we could see a return of crafty to number 1, or the program of any honest programmer.

Plagiarism rewarded.

Best
J

I did not buy houdini but I see no problem with buying non original programs.

Ok to buy "stolen merchandise" as well? I mean, YOU didn't actually steal it...
Wait, you might get charged with "receiving stolen merchandise" anyway... "caveat emptor".

Non original is not the same as stolen and
I see no proof that houdini is illegal.

Uri

Uri, that's just Bob and more useless and unfounded bullshit. But I don't want him to stop. The engines he singles out are the ones that I know will be worth the money. And I buy them immediately. I'm not joking, lying or kidding when I tell you this: I went back after Bob's whining and bought a second copy of Houdini- and told Robert to donate the money to the charity of his choice, but to be sure he made the donation in the name of Dr. Robert Hyatt, UAB- Birmingham, Alabama.

[Rebel]

He started with GNUchess, and rewrote it completely. Nothing wrong with that. I remember clearly that he was really interested in the GNUchess move generator and how he improved it. I do not think my memory is playing me tricks:

http://chessgames.com/player/ferret

Your memory is fine

EDIT - I see Adam beat me.

Addition, Bob being the best person to judge:

Bruce as in Bruce Moreland? Because he COMPLETELY rewrote all the gnuchess code he borrowed to start with. He sent me this code years ago to take a look to see what I thought. He came up with a different and unique way of generating moves. His code is actually clean. And it looks nothing like gnuchessx. That's the idea one is supposed to "grasp" in this process... Nothing wrong with using a program as a starting point, so long as it gets completely re-done as you slowly develop your own approach and new ideas. And EVERY program has lots of new ideas...

http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforu ... #pid375965