Test Position

MikeGL · Post by **MikeGL** » Sat Sep 03, 2011 5:29 am

[D] r3k2r/p1pb1pp1/1p6/2p1PPN1/6P1/5K2/PPP5/R2R4 w - - 0 1

28.Kg3 best according to engines and was also played in actual game, but 28.Rxd7 followed by Nxf7 looks simpler and wins.
I wonder if there are engines that will play 28.Rxd7 as this move turns out to give higher score after 29.Nxf7 Rh2 30.Rd1+

complete game:

[Event "FIDE World Cup 2011"]
[Date "2011.08.31"]
[Round "10.31"]
[Board "31"]
[White "Sutovsky, Emil"]
[Black "Fressinet, Laurent"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteClock "00:30:00"]
[BlackClock "00:31:00"]
[WhiteElo "2700"]
[BlackElo "2698"]
[PlyCount "85"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 Nf6 4. O-O Nxe4 5. d4 Nd6 6. Bxc6 dxc6
7. dxe5 Nf5 8. Qxd8+ Kxd8 9. h3 h6 10. Rd1+ Ke8 11. Nc3 Be6 12. g4 Ne7
13. Nd4 Bd7 14. Kh2 Ng6 15. f4 h5 16. Kg3 Be7 17. Be3 Bh4+ 18. Kf3 Be7
19. Kg3 Bh4+ 20. Kf3 Be7 21. Nf5 Nh4+ 22. Nxh4 Bxh4 23. f5 Be7 24. Ne4 b6
25. Bg5 Bxg5 26. Nxg5 hxg4+ 27. hxg4 c5 28. Kg3 Bc6 29. e6 fxe6 30. Re1 Rh6
31. Nxe6 Kf7 32. Rad1 Re8 33. Nd8+ Kf8 34. Rxe8+ Bxe8 35. Ne6+ Kf7 36. Nxc7 Rc6
37. Ne6 Rc8 38. Kf4 c4 39. Rd8 c3 40. b3 Rxd8 41. Nxd8+ Ke7 42. Ne6 g6
43. Nc7 1-0

I'm new in here, and don't know how to post diagrams

pocopito · Post by **pocopito** » Sat Sep 03, 2011 9:37 am

Queeny seems to enjoy the Rd7 line:

Code: Select all

 1 &#91;+0.31&#93;  eval, dif=70, Pawns=10 &#40;0.00&#41;
 1 &#91;+2.11&#93;  d1d7 e8d7 g5f7 &#40;0.00&#41;
 2 &#91;+2.15&#93;  d1d7 e8d7 &#40;0.00&#41;
 3 &#91;+2.08&#93;  d1d7 e8d7 g5f7 f7f8 d7c7 &#40;0.00&#41;
 4 &#91;+1.61&#93;  d1d7 e8d7 g5f7 h8h2 &#40;0.00&#41;
 5 &#91;+2.09&#93;  d1d7 e8d7 g5f7 h8h3 f3g2 h3h4 &#40;0.00&#41;
 6 &#91;+2.23&#93;  d1d7 e8d7 g5f7 h8h2 e5e6 d7e7 a1c1 &#40;0.00&#41;
 7 &#91;+2.09&#93;  d1d7 e8d7 g5f7 h8h2 e5e6 d7e7 a1c1 c5c4 &#40;0.01&#41;
 8 &#91;+2.20&#93;  d1d7 e8d7 g5f7 h8h2 e5e6 d7e7 a1c1 e7f6 f3f4 &#40;0.02&#41;
 9 &#91;+2.15&#93;  d1d7 e8d7 g5f7 h8h2 e5e6 d7e7 a1c1 e7f6 f3g3 h2e2 &#40;0.04&#41;
10 &#91;+2.20&#93;  d1d7 e8d7 g5f7 h8h2 e5e6 d7e7 a1c1 e7f6 f3g3 h2e2 g3h3 &#40;0.06&#41;
11 &#91;+2.18&#93;  d1d7 e8d7 g5f7 h8h2 e5e6 d7e7 a1c1 e7f6 f3f4 h2f2 f4e4 f2e2 e4d5 a8b8 &#40;0.08&#41;
12 &#91;+2.12&#93;  d1d7 e8d7 g5f7 h8h2 e5e6 d7e7 a1c1 g7g6 a2a3 c5c4 f3g3 h2e2 &#40;0.14&#41;
13 &#91;+2.21&#93;  d1d7 e8d7 g5f7 h8h2 e5e6 d7e7 a1c1 e7f6 f3f4 &#40;0.23&#41;
14 &#91;+2.19&#93;  d1d7 e8d7 g5f7 h8h2 e5e6 d7e7 a1c1 e7f6 f3f4 h2f2 f4g3 f2e2 b2b3 a8b8 g3h3 &#40;0.57&#41;
15 &#91;+2.02&#93;  d1d7 e8d7 g5f7 h8h2 e5e6 d7e7 a1c1 e7f6 f3g3 h2d2 a2a3 c5c4 b2b4 c7c6 c2c3 &#40;1.54&#41;
16 &#91;+2.06&#93;  d1d7 e8d7 g5f7 h8h2 a1c1 d7e7 f3g3 h2d2 f7g5 c7c6 e5e6 c5c4 g5e4 &#40;3.16&#41;
17 &#91;+1.86&#93;  d1d7 e8d7 g5f7 h8h2 e5e6 d7e7 a1c1 e7f6 f3g3 h2e2 g3f4 g7g6 f4f3 e2d2 f7h6 c5c4 &#40;7.37&#41;

pocopito · Post by **pocopito** » Sat Sep 03, 2011 9:43 am

And StockFish 1.8 64bit

Code: Select all

1 &#91;+1.33&#93;  1.Kf4  &#40;0.00&#41;
 1 &#91;+1.33&#93;   &#40;0.00&#41;
 2 &#91;+1.05&#93;  1.Kf4 f6  &#40;0.00&#41;
 2 &#91;+1.21&#93;  1.e6 Bc6+ 2.Kf4  &#40;0.00&#41;
 3 &#91;+1.25&#93;  1.e6 Bc6+ 2.Kf4 fxe6 3.fxe6  &#40;0.00&#41;
 4 &#91;+1.21&#93;  1.e6 fxe6 2.fxe6 Bb5  &#40;0.00&#41;
 5 &#91;+0.16&#93;  1.e6 fxe6 2.fxe6 Bc6+ 3.Kf4 Ke7  &#40;0.01&#41;
 5 &#91;+0.32&#93;  1.Rxd7 Kxd7 2.Nxf7 Rh3+ 3.Kf4 Rh2 4.Rd1+ Ke7 5.e6  &#40;0.03&#41;
 5 &#91;+0.52&#93;  1.Ne4 Ke7 2.c4 Bc6 3.Rac1  &#40;0.05&#41;
 5 &#91;+1.13&#93;  1.Ke3 Ba4 2.b3 Bc6 3.e6  &#40;0.07&#41;
 6 &#91;+1.17&#93;  1.Ke3 Ba4 2.b3 Bc6 3.e6 fxe6 4.Nxe6  &#40;0.10&#41;
 6 &#91;+1.25&#93;  1.Kf4 f6  &#40;0.10&#41;
 6 &#91;+1.25&#93;  1.Kf4 Ba4 2.e6 fxe6 3.b3 Bc6 4.fxe6  &#40;0.11&#41;
 7 &#91;+1.09&#93;  1.Kf4 Bc6  &#40;0.14&#41;
 7 &#91;+1.17&#93;  1.Ke3 Ba4 2.b3 Bc6 3.e6 fxe6 4.Nxe6  &#40;0.19&#41;
 8 &#91;+1.01&#93;  1.Ke3 Ba4  &#40;0.27&#41;
 8 &#91;+1.33&#93;  1.Kg3 Ba4  &#40;0.29&#41;
 8 &#91;+1.57&#93;  1.Kg3 Ba4 2.b3 Bc6 3.e6 fxe6 4.Nxe6 Kf7 5.Nxc7  &#40;0.29&#41;
 9 &#91;+1.37&#93;  1.Kg3 Ba4 2.b3 Bc6 3.e6 fxe6 4.Nxe6 Kf7 5.Nxc7 Rac8 6.Ne6 g6 7.a4 gxf5 8.gxf5  &#40;0.31&#41;
10 &#91;+1.61&#93;  1.Kg3 Ba4 2.b3 Bc6 3.e6 fxe6 4.Nxe6 Kf7 5.Nxc7 Rac8 6.Ne6 g6 7.Ng5+ Kg7 8.Rd6 gxf5 9.gxf5 Bb7 10.Rg6+ Kf8  &#40;0.32&#41;
11 &#91;+1.25&#93;  1.Kg3 Ba4  &#40;0.35&#41;
11 &#91;+1.05&#93;  1.Kg3 Ba4 2.e6 f6 3.Nf7 Rf8 4.Rd2 Ke7 5.Rad1 Bc6 6.Rd7+ Bxd7 7.Rxd7+ Ke8 8.Rxc7  &#40;0.40&#41;
12 &#91;+0.72&#93;  1.Kg3 Bc6 2.e6 f6 3.Nf7 Rh7 4.Rd2 Ke7  &#40;0.42&#41;
13 &#91;+0.76&#93;  1.Kg3 Bc6 2.e6 f6 3.Nf7 Rh7 4.Rd2 Ke7 5.Rad1 a5 6.Nd8 Ba4 7.Kf4 Bb5 8.b3  &#40;0.48&#41;
14 &#91;+0.96&#93;  1.Kg3 Bc6  &#40;0.58&#41;
14 &#91;+1.01&#93;  1.Kg3 Bc6 2.e6 f6 3.Nf7 Rh7 4.Rd2 Ke7 5.Rad1 a5 6.Nd8 Be8 7.c4 a4 8.Kf4 Rh3 9.Ke4  &#40;0.60&#41;
15 &#91;+0.96&#93;  1.Kg3 Bc6 2.e6 f6 3.Nf7 Rh7 4.Rd2 Ke7 5.Rad1 a5 6.c4 Be8 7.g5 fxg5 8.Nxg5 Rh6 9.Kf4 Rh4+ 10.Ke5 Rxc4 11.b3  &#40;0.71&#41;
15 &#91;+1.29&#93;  1.Rxd7 Kxd7  &#40;0.73&#41;
15 &#91;+1.53&#93;  1.Rxd7 Kxd7 2.Nxf7 Rh2 3.Rd1+ Ke7 4.e6 Kf6 5.Rd7 Rg8 6.Rxc7 Rxc2 7.Nd6 g6 8.e7 gxf5 9.gxf5 Rxb2 10.e8=Q Rxe8 11.Nxe8+ Kxf5 12.Rxa7  &#40;0.77&#41;
16 &#91;+0.88&#93;  1.Rxd7 Kxd7  &#40;0.86&#41;
16 &#91;+1.05&#93;  1.Rxd7 Kxd7 2.Nxf7 Rh2 3.Rd1+ Ke7 4.e6 Kf6 5.Rd7 Rh1 6.Nd8 Re1 7.Nc6 Rf8 8.Rxc7 g6 9.e7 Re8 10.fxg6 Re6 11.Kf4 Kxg6 12.Ne5+ Kf6  &#40;0.94&#41;
17 &#91;+0.96&#93;  1.Rxd7 Kxd7 2.Nxf7 Rh2 3.Rd1+ Ke7 4.e6 Kf6 5.Rd7 Rh1 6.Nd8 Re1 7.b3 g6 8.Rf7+ Kg5 9.Rf8 Rxd8 10.Rxd8 gxf5 11.Rg8+ Kf6 12.g5+ Ke7 13.Kf4 Rxe6 14.Kxf5 Re2  &#40;1.12&#41;
18 &#91;+1.09&#93;  1.Rxd7 Kxd7 2.Nxf7 Rh2 3.Rd1+ Ke7 4.e6 Kf6 5.Rd7 Rh1 6.Nd8 Re1 7.b3 g6 8.Rf7+ Kg5 9.e7 gxf5 10.gxf5 Rxe7 11.Ne6+ Rxe6 12.fxe6 Re8 13.Rxc7 Kf6 14.Rxa7 Kxe6 15.Rh7  &#40;1.46&#41;
19 &#91;+1.17&#93;  1.Rxd7 Kxd7 2.Nxf7 Rh2 3.Rd1+ Ke7 4.e6 Kf6 5.Rd7 Rh1 6.Nd8 Re1 7.b3 g6 8.Rf7+ Kg5 9.e7 gxf5 10.gxf5 Rxe7 11.Ne6+ Rxe6 12.fxe6 Re8 13.Rxc7 Kf6 14.Rxa7 Rxe6 15.Rd7 Ke5 16.a4 Rg6  &#40;1.84&#41;
21 &#91;+1.25&#93;  1.Rxd7 Kxd7  &#40;2.91&#41;
21 &#91;+1.73&#93;  1.Rxd7 Kxd7 2.Nxf7 Rh2 3.Rd1+ Ke7 4.e6 Kf8 5.Rd7 Rxc2  &#40;5.46&#41;
22 &#91;+1.53&#93;  1.Rxd7 Kxd7 2.Nxf7 Rh2 3.Rd1+ Ke7 4.e6 Kf6 5.Rd7 Rh1 6.Nd8 Re1 7.Kf4 Rf1+ 8.Kg3 Re1 9.Nc6 Rg1+ 10.Kf4 Rf1+ 11.Ke4 Rf8 12.g5+ Kxg5 13.Rxg7+ Kh6 14.Rg6+ Kh7 15.e7 Re1+ 16.Kf4 Rf1+ 17.Kg4 Re8 18.Kg5 Rf2 19.Kf6  &#40;7.54&#41;
23 &#91;+1.37&#93;  1.Rxd7 Kxd7 2.Nxf7 Rh2 3.Rd1+ Ke7 4.e6 Kf6 5.Rd7 Rh1 6.Nd8 Re1 7.b3 g6 8.Rf7+ Kg5 9.e7 gxf5 10.gxf5 Rxe7 11.Ne6+ Rxe6 12.fxe6 Re8 13.Rxc7 Rxe6 14.Rxa7 Kf6 15.Kf4 Re2 16.Rb7 Rf2+ 17.Ke4 Re2+ 18.Kd3 Re6 19.a4 Rd6+ 20.Ke4 Ke6 21.Ke3 Kf5  &#40;10.65&#41;
24 &#91;+1.21&#93;  1.Rxd7 Kxd7 2.Nxf7 Rh2 3.Rd1+ Ke7 4.e6 Kf6 5.Rd7 Rh1 6.Nd8 Re1 7.b3 g6 8.Rf7+ Kg5 9.e7 gxf5 10.gxf5 Rxe7 11.Ne6+ Rxe6 12.fxe6 Re8 13.Rxc7 Rxe6 14.Rxa7 Kf5 15.a4 Ke5 16.a5 bxa5 17.Rxa5 Kd4 18.Ra4+ Kd5 19.Ra8 Rh6  &#40;13.28&#41;
25 &#91;+1.33&#93;  1.Rxd7 Kxd7 2.Nxf7 Rh2 3.Rd1+ Ke7 4.e6 Kf6 5.Rd7 Rh1 6.Nd8 Re1 7.b3 g6 8.Rf7+ Kg5 9.e7 gxf5 10.gxf5 Rxe7 11.Ne6+ Rxe6 12.fxe6 Re8 13.Rxc7 Rxe6 14.Rxa7 Kf5 15.a4 Ke5 16.Ke3 Kd6+ 17.Kd3 Rh6 18.Rb7 Kd5 19.Rd7+ Ke5 20.Rg7 Rf6  &#40;17.70&#41;
26 &#91;+1.33&#93;  1.Rxd7 Kxd7 2.Nxf7 Rh2 3.Rd1+ Ke7 4.e6 Kf6 5.Rd7 Rh1 6.Nd8 Re1 7.b3 g6 8.Rf7+ Kg5 9.e7 gxf5 10.gxf5 Rxe7 11.Ne6+ Rxe6 12.fxe6 Re8 13.Rxc7 Rxe6 14.Rxa7 Kf5 15.a4 Ke5 16.Ke3 Kd6+ 17.Kd3 Rh6 18.Rb7 Kd5 19.Rd7+  &#40;23.03&#41;
27 &#91;+1.41&#93;  1.Rxd7 Kxd7  &#40;29.53&#41;
27 &#91;+1.45&#93;  1.Rxd7 Kxd7 2.Nxf7 Rh2 3.Rd1+ Ke7 4.e6 Kf6 5.Rd7 Rh1 6.Nd8 Re1 7.b3 g6 8.Rf7+ Kg5 9.e7 gxf5 10.gxf5 Rxe7 11.Ne6+ Rxe6 12.fxe6 Re8 13.Rxc7 Rxe6 14.Rxa7 Kf5 15.Rh7 Ke5 16.Rh4 Rd6 17.Ke3 Kf5 18.a4 Kg5 19.Rh7 Kf5 20.Rh5+ Kg4 21.Re5  &#40;36.29&#41;
28 &#91;+1.37&#93;  1.Rxd7 Kxd7 2.Nxf7 Rh2 3.Rd1+ Ke7 4.e6 Kf6 5.Rd7 Rh1 6.Nd8 Re1 7.b3 g6 8.Rf7+ Kg5 9.e7 gxf5 10.gxf5 Rxe7 11.Ne6+ Rxe6 12.fxe6 Re8 13.Rxc7 Rxe6 14.Rxa7 Kf5 15.Rh7 Ke5 16.Rh4 Rd6 17.Ke3 Rg6  &#40;49.94&#41;
29 &#91;+1.37&#93;  1.Rxd7 Kxd7 2.Nxf7 Rh2 3.Rd1+ Ke7 4.e6 Kf6 5.Rd7 Rh1 6.Nd8 Re1 7.b3 g6 8.Rf7+ Kg5 9.e7 gxf5 10.gxf5 Rxe7 11.Ne6+ Rxe6 12.fxe6 Re8 13.Rxc7 Rxe6 14.Rxa7 Kf5 15.Rh7 Ke5 16.Rh4 Rd6 17.Ke3 Rg6 18.Rh5+ Kd6 19.a4 Re6+ 20.Kd3 Rg6 21.Ke4  &#40;73.66&#41;
30 &#91;+1.37&#93;  1.Rxd7 Kxd7 2.Nxf7 Rh2 3.Rd1+ Ke7 4.e6 Kf6 5.Rd7 Rh1 6.Nd8 Re1 7.b3 g6 8.Rf7+ Kg5 9.e7 gxf5 10.gxf5 Rxe7 11.Ne6+ Rxe6 12.fxe6 Re8 13.Rxc7 Rxe6 14.Rxa7 Kf5 15.Rh7 Ke5 16.Rh4 Rd6 17.Ke3 Rg6  &#40;111.17&#41;
31 &#91;+1.45&#93;  1.Rxd7 Kxd7  &#40;143.97&#41;

MikeGL · Post by **MikeGL** » Sat Sep 03, 2011 10:19 am

Thank you.
My 32-bit engines can't reach those depths and evaluations.
Stockfish is quite popular but I haven't heard of Queeny Engine, whats the official site of Queeny? I think posting links is not allowed according to mods, so just pm, if you don't mind. Thanks in advance

MikeGL · Post by **MikeGL** » Sat Sep 03, 2011 10:24 am

17 [+1.86] d1d7 e8d7 g5f7 h8h2 e5e6 d7e7 a1c1 e7f6 f3g3 h2e2 g3f4 g7g6 f4f3 e2d2 f7h6 c5c4 (7.37)

The above line of Queeny looks incorrect, as e5-e6 is not as strong as Rd1+.
I guess Queeny engine just likes space advantage and passed pawns and gives a huge plus in score in its evaluation after 17.Rxd7.

The line of Stockfish is quite impressive.

pocopito · Post by **pocopito** » Sat Sep 03, 2011 10:38 am

I've checked my Queeny install, and guess I got news of it from here:

http://talkchess.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=40171

Take a look at the thread, but read carefully because in a certain moment it gets a bit confusing

PS: btw, welcome to this forum.

MikeGL · Post by **MikeGL** » Sat Sep 03, 2011 10:46 am

Thanks for your warm welcome and for the Queeny link.
Will check Queeny engine now.

MikeGL · Post by **MikeGL** » Sat Sep 03, 2011 11:25 am

I followed the talkchess link which you have given and according to the programmer of QueenNy, H.G.Muller, the R and minor pieces (N & B) have the same piece values. So QuenNy will always do an exchange sacrifice. No wonder it found 28.Rxd7 at depth 5.

.... QueeNy's piece values are such that it sets B and N equal to Rook it sacs the exchange and Q vs 2 minors all the time, for no reason.

[/quote]

pocopito · Post by **pocopito** » Sat Sep 03, 2011 11:28 am

Hmmm, I've used StockFish to analyse the position again and it doesn't seem to solve it in ply 30.

Maybe in my former attempt StockFish somehow got a hint from previous analysis, because if I play Rd7 and undo this move, then Stockfish finds Rd7 easily (but this "trick" doesn't seem to work with other engines).

MikeGL · Post by **MikeGL** » Sat Sep 03, 2011 11:46 am

Thanks anyway.
But that feature of StockFish seems nice, I remember during Fritz3 days around 1998, Fritz can also do this same trick. Copying the idea of humans, as long as the score is higher than its own, but Fritz3 saves it in its learn file the reason why it always remembers strange solutions to tricky positions.

Test Position

Test Position

Re: Test Position

Re: Test Position

Re: Test Position

Re: Test Position

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