[D] r4r1k/4bppb/2n1p2p/p1n1P3/1p1p1BNP/3P1NP1/qP2QPB1/2RR2K1 w
One of the top programs says these are best moves after I force Ng5.
1.Ng5!! hxg5 2.hxg5! Rac8 3.Nf6!! Nb8
After the above line, what does your program say is bm?
[D] 1nr2r1k/4bppb/4pN2/p1n1P1P1/1p1p1B2/3P2P1/qP2QPB1/2RR2K1 w - -
Nolot #9
From Wiki
1.Ng5!! hxg5 2.hxg5! Rac8 3.Nf6!! Nb8 (3...gxf6 still loses if white play precisely: 4.gxf6 4...Rfe8?? (see below) 5.Qh5 Rg8 6.Rxc5! Bg6! 7.Qh4 Bxc5 8.Be4 Ne7 9Kg2 Qd5 10.Bxd5 +-) 4.Qh5 Bxf6 5.gxf6 gxf6 6.Rxc5 Rxc5 7.Be4 f5 8.Kg2 Rg8 9.Rh1 Rg7 10.Bh6 Nd7 11.Bxg7+ Kxg7 12.Qxh7+ 1-0
After 3...gxf6 4.gxf6 Nxd3!! 5.Rxd3 Bxd3 6.Qxd3 Nxe5 7.Rxc8 Qa1+ 8.Qf1 Qxf1+ 9.Kxf1 Rxc8 10.fxe7 Ng6 11.Bd6 Kg7 12.Bb7 Rc1+ 13.Ke2 Nxe7 14.Kd2 Rf1 15.Be5+ f6 16.Bxd4 a4 17.Bc5 Nd5 18.Ba8 a3 19.bxa3 bxa3 20.Bxd5 exd5 21.Bxa3 Rxf2+ and Black has a large advantage.
Nolot #9
Moderators: hgm, Rebel, chrisw
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zullil
- Posts: 6442
- Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 12:31 am
- Location: PA USA
- Full name: Louis Zulli
Re: Nolot #9
Critter-1.2.1 (8 threads) is currently suggesting Bd5.kgburcham wrote: After the above line, what does your program say is bm?
[D] 1nr2r1k/4bppb/4pN2/p1n1P1P1/1p1p1B2/3P2P1/qP2QPB1/2RR2K1 w - -
Code: Select all
26/62 14:16 9239198598 10788994 +1.91 Bd5 Qxd5 Nxd5 exd5 Kg2 Ne6 Rh1 g6 Ra1 Kg7 Qg4 Rh8 Rxa5 Rc2 Ra8 Rcc8 Qh3 Rcf8 Bd2 Nc6 Rxf8 Bxf8 f4 Bc5 g4 Ne7 b3 Kg8 Kg3 Kg7 Qh6+ Kg8 Qh2 Kg7 Be1 Kg8
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zullil
- Posts: 6442
- Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 12:31 am
- Location: PA USA
- Full name: Louis Zulli
Re: Nolot #9
A bit more from Critter-1.2.1:
Code: Select all
28/70 96:19 67708895214 11715036 +2.12 Bd5 Qxd5 Nxd5 exd5 Kg2 Ne6 Rh1 g6 Ra1 Kg7 Qg4 Rh8 Rxa5 Nd7 Ra7 Rcd8 Qf3 Rhe8 Qxd5 Ndc5 Qf3 Bg8 Bd2 b3 g4 Nxg5 Qg3-
maschmdt
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 8:07 pm
Re: Nolot #9
This line seems to be wrong: (1. Ng5 hxg5 2.hxg5 Rac8 3.Nf6 I suppose) 3...gxf6 4.gxf6 Nxd3?? 5.Rxd3 Bxd3?? 6.Qh5+ Kg8 7. Qh6 and checkmate on g7After 3...gxf6 4.gxf6 Nxd3!! 5.Rxd3 Bxd3 6.Qxd3 Nxe5 7.Rxc8 Qa1+ 8.Qf1 Qxf1+ 9.Kxf1 Rxc8 10.fxe7 Ng6 11.Bd6 Kg7 12.Bb7 Rc1+ 13.Ke2 Nxe7 14.Kd2 Rf1 15.Be5+ f6 16.Bxd4 a4 17.Bc5 Nd5 18.Ba8 a3 19.bxa3 bxa3 20.Bxd5 exd5 21.Bxa3 Rxf2+ and Black has a large advantage.
I would not trust the line 1.Ng5!! hxg5 2.hxg5! Rac8 3.Nf6!! Nb8 either.
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peter
- Posts: 3186
- Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:38 am
- Full name: Peter Martan
Re: Nolot #9
Hi!
The variants from Wiki aren't the best ones for me.
3...Nb8 isn't the best follow up to 2...Rac8, I'd say 3...gxf6 is stronger for Black but in this line there is 5...Rg8 a clear ? to me, after for example 5...Kg8 the black advantage is not so big I think.
Especially, as has been said in former threads about this position (Ernest Bonnem gave some links), instead of 2...Rac8 2...Rfc8 gives Black even better defence.
Here is again my .pgn I showed up in the first thread about Nolot's positions you started right before this one:
http://74.220.23.57/forum/viewtopic.php ... 1c89eeeefa
I sticked to 1.Ng5 only this time:
[Event "?"]
[Site "Dort"]
[Date "2011.08.22"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Sg5, only"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Martan,Peter"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "r4r1k/4bppb/2n1p2p/p1n1P3/1p1p1BNP/3P1NP1/qP2QPB1/2RR2K1 w - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "12"]
[EventDate "2011.??.??"]
1. Ng5 hxg5 2. hxg5 Rfc8 (2... Rac8 3. Nf6 Nb8 (3... gxf6 4. gxf6 Rfe8 5. Qh5 (
5. Bxc6 Rxc6 6. fxe7 Bg6 7. Bg5 f5 8. Rc4 Kg8 9. Rdc1 a4 10. Bf6 Nxd3 11. Qxd3
Rxc4 12. Rxc4 Qxb2 13. Qxd4 Qxd4 14. Rxd4 Bh5 15. Rxb4 Bd1 16. Rd4 Bb3 17. Rd3
Kf7 18. Kg2 Bd5+ 19. Kh3 Rb8 20. Ra3) 5... Kg8 (5... Rg8 $2 6. Rxc5 Bxc5 7. Be4
Ne7 8. Kg2 Qd5 9. Bxd5)) 4. Qh5 Bxf6 5. gxf6 Nbd7 $1 (5... gxf6 $2 6. Rxc5 Rxc5
7. Be4 f5 8. Kg2 Rg8 9. Rh1 Rg7 10. Bh6 Nd7 11. Bxg7+ Kxg7 12. Qxh7+)) 3. Nf6
Bg6 (3... gxf6 4. gxf6 Nxd3 5. Rxd3) 4. Qg4 gxf6 5. gxf6 Nxd3 6. Rxd3 Bf8 *
Yet I'm still convinced 1.Ng5 might be enough for White to win or it might not, but at least 3 moves seem to be better to me:
1.Nf6, 1.Nxh6 and 1.Bxh6 all are more sure to be won for White than 1.Ng5, see my variants to these in the posting linked above.
The problem of such a position still is simply this: you can let engines run on 16 cores for hours on single or on some variants, you can even give them a way back on their own or interactive variants, after about ten moves into the variant, the evals go down again the way back, the alternative moves get more and more again and the best first one is to be changed again and again after backward solving of the one ore the other variant of your own choice.
It's simply too difficult for nowadays software + hardware still.
If this is to be seen here once again, I sometimes have quite another problem one more time: are these tactical mad jungles of variants really the real difficult ones or aren't the "quiet" opening positions of "equal chances" for both sides even much more difficult to give real good eval and to find the best variants and best moves at all?
I mean in such tactical monsters you do have differences in evals from move to move anyhow, there are just too many choices to be compared exactly and far enough. In "positional" positions without tactical points you don't even have points at all to be judged exactly.
The variants from Wiki aren't the best ones for me.
3...Nb8 isn't the best follow up to 2...Rac8, I'd say 3...gxf6 is stronger for Black but in this line there is 5...Rg8 a clear ? to me, after for example 5...Kg8 the black advantage is not so big I think.
Especially, as has been said in former threads about this position (Ernest Bonnem gave some links), instead of 2...Rac8 2...Rfc8 gives Black even better defence.
Here is again my .pgn I showed up in the first thread about Nolot's positions you started right before this one:
http://74.220.23.57/forum/viewtopic.php ... 1c89eeeefa
I sticked to 1.Ng5 only this time:
[Event "?"]
[Site "Dort"]
[Date "2011.08.22"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Sg5, only"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Martan,Peter"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "r4r1k/4bppb/2n1p2p/p1n1P3/1p1p1BNP/3P1NP1/qP2QPB1/2RR2K1 w - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "12"]
[EventDate "2011.??.??"]
1. Ng5 hxg5 2. hxg5 Rfc8 (2... Rac8 3. Nf6 Nb8 (3... gxf6 4. gxf6 Rfe8 5. Qh5 (
5. Bxc6 Rxc6 6. fxe7 Bg6 7. Bg5 f5 8. Rc4 Kg8 9. Rdc1 a4 10. Bf6 Nxd3 11. Qxd3
Rxc4 12. Rxc4 Qxb2 13. Qxd4 Qxd4 14. Rxd4 Bh5 15. Rxb4 Bd1 16. Rd4 Bb3 17. Rd3
Kf7 18. Kg2 Bd5+ 19. Kh3 Rb8 20. Ra3) 5... Kg8 (5... Rg8 $2 6. Rxc5 Bxc5 7. Be4
Ne7 8. Kg2 Qd5 9. Bxd5)) 4. Qh5 Bxf6 5. gxf6 Nbd7 $1 (5... gxf6 $2 6. Rxc5 Rxc5
7. Be4 f5 8. Kg2 Rg8 9. Rh1 Rg7 10. Bh6 Nd7 11. Bxg7+ Kxg7 12. Qxh7+)) 3. Nf6
Bg6 (3... gxf6 4. gxf6 Nxd3 5. Rxd3) 4. Qg4 gxf6 5. gxf6 Nxd3 6. Rxd3 Bf8 *
Yet I'm still convinced 1.Ng5 might be enough for White to win or it might not, but at least 3 moves seem to be better to me:
1.Nf6, 1.Nxh6 and 1.Bxh6 all are more sure to be won for White than 1.Ng5, see my variants to these in the posting linked above.
The problem of such a position still is simply this: you can let engines run on 16 cores for hours on single or on some variants, you can even give them a way back on their own or interactive variants, after about ten moves into the variant, the evals go down again the way back, the alternative moves get more and more again and the best first one is to be changed again and again after backward solving of the one ore the other variant of your own choice.
It's simply too difficult for nowadays software + hardware still.
If this is to be seen here once again, I sometimes have quite another problem one more time: are these tactical mad jungles of variants really the real difficult ones or aren't the "quiet" opening positions of "equal chances" for both sides even much more difficult to give real good eval and to find the best variants and best moves at all?
I mean in such tactical monsters you do have differences in evals from move to move anyhow, there are just too many choices to be compared exactly and far enough. In "positional" positions without tactical points you don't even have points at all to be judged exactly.
Peter.