Komodo 2.03 release is imminent

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

Moderators: Harvey Williamson, bob, hgm

Forum rules
This textbox is used to restore diagrams posted with the [d] tag before the upgrade.
Lion
Posts: 521
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2006 11:26 am
Location: Switzerland

Re: Komodo 2.03 release is imminent

Post by Lion » Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:25 pm

IMHO - Karpov is probably the stronger chess player of all times.

I think that between 1975 and 1985 he was stronger than Kasparov or Fisher ever have been..... personnal opinion.....

Dayffd
Posts: 419
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 3:30 am

Re: Komodo 2.03 release is imminent

Post by Dayffd » Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:40 pm

Thomas Lagershausen wrote:I would say Komodo didn´t like to go any risk in his positions.

A so called passive chessplayer castle every time short.

A passive chessplayer didn´t go for a kingsattack with castling long.

A passive player looks always for a positional way to play the position.

It hates to offer a pawn for development.

A passive player didn´t like to go for fire on the board.

Komodo is playing chess like Karpov.

Very clean and cleare as cristal water, but absolutly unspectacular.

But this chessplayer is not the hero of the world.

Greetings
I am just happy Komodo doesn't play like me... :) :wink:
David S.

User avatar
Don
Posts: 5106
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:27 pm

Re: Komodo 2.03 release is imminent

Post by Don » Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:51 pm

Thomas Lagershausen wrote:I would say Komodo didn´t like to go any risk in his positions.

A so called passive chessplayer castle every time short.

A passive chessplayer didn´t go for a kingsattack with castling long.

A passive player looks always for a positional way to play the position.

It hates to offer a pawn for development.

A passive player didn´t like to go for fire on the board.

Komodo is playing chess like Karpov.

Very clean and cleare as cristal water, but absolutly unspectacular.

But this chessplayer is not the hero of the world.

Greetings
Larry and I both have the same philosophy about how we want Komodo to play chess. We both want the program to be impressive in terms of playing strength and we want it to play as much like humans as we can. Other than that, we are not desperate to make it play any particular way.

We know that many users will prefer an aggressive style but that there are many players who really like Komodo's current style.

Most of your points do not accurately describe Komodo by the way. I have seen it many times do all the things you say it cannot or will not do. For example I found a small PGN file of Komodo games and found that it castled long 53 times and this was out of book. It is quite good at pawn storm attacks and has specific code to make it do that. It has even done that when it was unsound so there goes your theory about it never playing risky moves.

User avatar
Don
Posts: 5106
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:27 pm

Re: Komodo 2.03 release is imminent

Post by Don » Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:55 pm

Lion wrote:IMHO - Karpov is probably the stronger chess player of all times.

I think that between 1975 and 1985 he was stronger than Kasparov or Fisher ever have been..... personnal opinion.....
Karpov really got the short end of the stick when Fischer refused to play him. He had to live in his shadow and that was really an injustice in my opinion. He could not live that down even though in reality he may have been the better player. I think he may have lost to Fischer the first time around had that match been played, but probably not after that as he matured.

Martin Thoresen
Posts: 1833
Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 10:07 pm

Re: Komodo 2.03 release is imminent

Post by Martin Thoresen » Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:56 pm

Don,

Fantastic result so far over at IPON.

Congratulations to you and Larry!

Best,
Martin

Frank Quisinsky
Posts: 5116
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:16 pm
Location: Trier, Germany
Contact:

Re: Komodo 2.03 release is imminent

Post by Frank Quisinsky » Thu Jun 16, 2011 9:27 pm

Hi Larry,

first of all:
It's important that the engine developments are different. To have 20 TOP engines which tactical strengths are very boring.

Doch / Komodo are all the time a special development. OK, same strength in the early endgame the Rybka / IPP family have but with very interesting other positional ideas. Most in pawn structurs I think ... with my chess knowledge.

Passive:
- hold in the early middlegame bishops / knights in the own arrays.
- try to hold the position closed after the opening moves.
- pawn attacks are very rarly, more important is a good pawn structur, started with the first own calculated moves.
- try to switched very fast knights, bishops, rocks ... try to reach fast the early endgame.

Interesting are the pawn structur in the early endgame. Must thinking on the fantastic book by GM Jörg Hickl (die Macht der Bauern). The pawns structur is the secret in Komodo's development and I am sure you and Don gave this topic many many time. Perhaps I am wrong, I am sure I am right.

Komodo is great ... yes Thomas wrote it before ... a little Karpov in his best times. We can compare it with ChessGenius too :-)

I think in games with longer time controls Komodo can get with more aggressiveness a jumping from 30-40 ELO. For blitz the playing style is optimal (better results in eng-eng matches), not for longer time controls.

OK, the Komodo team try to simulate the good and old :-) human style. I think the programming must be very complicated?

I am sure ...
If Komodo will play 100 games vs. a super GM the engine will get a weaker result as a tactical strong program, like Spark or Stockfish, Junior or Hiarcs.

Thats what I mean ...
I am sure that Rybka 4.1 got a bit from the Exp settings an user find out. Is playing more aggressive and comes with the same statistics the strong exp settings have.

Result = 20 ELO more!

The complete IPP family is playing passiv chess. A version from Ahmed comes from time to time with nice tactical moves in middlegame.

2.5 - 3.5% fast won games under 55 moves up to mate for IPP family. On of my statistics ... in my bad English very complicate to wrote about others. Komodo / Doch comes around with 1%. Spark with 5,5%, an aggressive Stockfish 2.1.1 setting with 6,5%. Junior 5% ... and so one.

More important in computer chess is the early endgame because with a good early endgame the ELO can jump very high. I know that, easy to see in bigger databases from chess engines.

What I have to say ...
With a bit more aggressivenss Komodo will not lost his positional chess knowledge (have a good basis here) and the ELO can jump higher. More risky are needed!

The playing style is to positional, means to extrem positional.

My opinion but on the other hand ... its nice that we have such an engine! Perhaps it would be better to try to make the positional style stronger and not to try to give Komodo more tactic strengths. I don't know ... honest, I don't know. I need an engine for positonal analyzes and used Komodo a long time in closed early endgame positions.

I like more the aggressive engines.
But ...

Looking in games Stockfish - Komodo is great. More interesting as to look in games Stockfish - Spark (2x tactic) or in Komodo - Sjeng (2x positional).

Best
Frank
I like computer chess!

tomgdrums
Posts: 736
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:48 am

Re: Komodo 2.03 release is imminent

Post by tomgdrums » Thu Jun 16, 2011 10:18 pm

Don wrote:
Lion wrote:IMHO - Karpov is probably the stronger chess player of all times.

I think that between 1975 and 1985 he was stronger than Kasparov or Fisher ever have been..... personnal opinion.....
Karpov really got the short end of the stick when Fischer refused to play him. He had to live in his shadow and that was really an injustice in my opinion. He could not live that down even though in reality he may have been the better player. I think he may have lost to Fischer the first time around had that match been played, but probably not after that as he matured.
I agree that Karpov got the short end of the stick. Karpov was a true champion! He always played and never ducked a challenge.

To put it bluntly Fischer was a coward AND the WORST chess champion of all time!

Roger Brown
Posts: 782
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:22 pm

Re: Komodo 2.03 release is imminent

Post by Roger Brown » Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:11 am

tomgdrums wrote:
I agree that Karpov got the short end of the stick. Karpov was a true champion! He always played and never ducked a challenge.

To put it bluntly Fischer was a coward AND the WORST chess champion of all time!


Hello Tom,

Worst? Coward?

I seem to recall more than one chess champion ducking a challenge. It is called fear. Even two of the ones I admire the most - Capablanca and Alekhine - instituted conditions after they became champions to make beating them more difficult. That tradition lingers to this day incidentally.

Max Euwe, to his credit, did not duck Alekhine for the re-match so as far as world champions go he was special.

I guess I am not so concerned about the machinations as I am about the games they left behind and even though much of Fischer's chess legacy is above my understanding, worst world champion pales in comparison to those games and ideas he left behind.

Just my two cents is all...

Later.

User avatar
Don
Posts: 5106
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:27 pm

Re: Komodo 2.03 release is imminent

Post by Don » Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:32 am

Roger Brown wrote:
tomgdrums wrote:
I agree that Karpov got the short end of the stick. Karpov was a true champion! He always played and never ducked a challenge.

To put it bluntly Fischer was a coward AND the WORST chess champion of all time!


Hello Tom,

Worst? Coward?

I seem to recall more than one chess champion ducking a challenge. It is called fear. Even two of the ones I admire the most - Capablanca and Alekhine - instituted conditions after they became champions to make beating them more difficult. That tradition lingers to this day incidentally.

Max Euwe, to his credit, did not duck Alekhine for the re-match so as far as world champions go he was special.

I guess I am not so concerned about the machinations as I am about the games they left behind and even though much of Fischer's chess legacy is above my understanding, worst world champion pales in comparison to those games and ideas he left behind.

Just my two cents is all...

Later.
I don't think he was a coward, he was just crazy and paranoid. He was truly a broken person and it was incredibly sad how it all turned out.

His career in chess was way too short when he stopped playing, but he did change chess as much or more than anyone before him in my opinion. Certainly he changed it in the U.S. which did not care about chess until Bobby came along. If it were not for him, I might not even be a computer chess programmer, I was in high school at the time he was playing in the world championship match and benefited over the years from the attention he brought to chess.

I feel really badly for Karpov - who was never given the opportunity to win the championship fair and square. It would have been better to lose than to be world champion but have everyone say that it's only because Fischer wouldn't play. So just by not playing Karpov Fischer managed to dishonor him and minimizing his accomplishments. I think those two could have played some great matches.

tomgdrums
Posts: 736
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:48 am

Re: Komodo 2.03 release is imminent

Post by tomgdrums » Fri Jun 17, 2011 1:04 am

Roger Brown wrote:
tomgdrums wrote:
I agree that Karpov got the short end of the stick. Karpov was a true champion! He always played and never ducked a challenge.

To put it bluntly Fischer was a coward AND the WORST chess champion of all time!


Hello Tom,

Worst? Coward?

I seem to recall more than one chess champion ducking a challenge. It is called fear. Even two of the ones I admire the most - Capablanca and Alekhine - instituted conditions after they became champions to make beating them more difficult. That tradition lingers to this day incidentally.

Max Euwe, to his credit, did not duck Alekhine for the re-match so as far as world champions go he was special.

I guess I am not so concerned about the machinations as I am about the games they left behind and even though much of Fischer's chess legacy is above my understanding, worst world champion pales in comparison to those games and ideas he left behind.

Just my two cents is all...

Later.

Don't get me wrong. Fischer's games were amazing! And his RUN to the championship was astounding BUT everyone bent over backwards to give him his shot and then we he got the championship he ran away from his match with Karpov, thus dishonoring Karpov, and ALL of those who went to bat for him in the previous cycle. (Including Benko who gave up his rightly earned spot in the championship cycle).
Last edited by tomgdrums on Fri Jun 17, 2011 1:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

Post Reply