My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich

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Harvey Williamson
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Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich

Post by Harvey Williamson » Sun Jun 13, 2010 2:56 pm

Albert Silver wrote:
Harvey Williamson wrote:
benstoker wrote:
Sven Schüle wrote: Re. Rybka 3 source code: Unfortunately, I don't have it. (Yes, it was careless. I'm keeping the Rybka 4 source code.) It's not necessary for writing up the Ippolit case, but it would probably make a court case more difficult.

Best regards,
Vas
Vas says he doesn't have the source code for Rybka 3. Surely he doesn't mean he lost it. Did he just sell it to Chessbase or something? Is that what he means? Even so, why would he be so "careless"? What does that mean? Careless in losing the source code? Careless to sell it to someone?

He says he's keeping the source for Rybka 4, but doesn't have the source for Rybka 3. Therefore, Rybka 4 must have hardly any code from Rybka 3.
I think it is a clever use of words. He does not have the exact source from R3 that may be true. I bet he has source from a version very close to R3. It is not uncommon to produce several versions every week.
If he doesn't have the exact source of the released version of Rybka 3, which presumably is what the Ippos stem from, then how is that a clever use of words?
Because many will misunderstand as Ben did. Maybe splitting hairs is a better description. The version may have been called Rybka 2.xxx that was compiled as R3 for release. He may have the 2.xxx code but not the R3!? Does he need the exact source code to prove anything?! I think a source with a few minor differences would be fine.

Should he publish it here to keep the few happy - lol

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Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich

Post by Albert Silver » Sun Jun 13, 2010 3:01 pm

Harvey Williamson wrote:
Albert Silver wrote:
Harvey Williamson wrote:
benstoker wrote:
Sven Schüle wrote: Re. Rybka 3 source code: Unfortunately, I don't have it. (Yes, it was careless. I'm keeping the Rybka 4 source code.) It's not necessary for writing up the Ippolit case, but it would probably make a court case more difficult.

Best regards,
Vas
Vas says he doesn't have the source code for Rybka 3. Surely he doesn't mean he lost it. Did he just sell it to Chessbase or something? Is that what he means? Even so, why would he be so "careless"? What does that mean? Careless in losing the source code? Careless to sell it to someone?

He says he's keeping the source for Rybka 4, but doesn't have the source for Rybka 3. Therefore, Rybka 4 must have hardly any code from Rybka 3.
I think it is a clever use of words. He does not have the exact source from R3 that may be true. I bet he has source from a version very close to R3. It is not uncommon to produce several versions every week.
If he doesn't have the exact source of the released version of Rybka 3, which presumably is what the Ippos stem from, then how is that a clever use of words?
Because many will misunderstand as Ben did. Maybe splitting hairs is a better description. The version may have been called Rybka 2.xxx that was compiled as R3 for release. He may have the 2.xxx code but not the R3!? Does he need the exact source code to prove anything?! I think a source with a few minor differences would be fine.
Sure, but I think his point was that if he tries to prove his case, someone may argue that he is trying to prove the IPPOs came from Rybka 3, but is using a twin instead of the original. That is how I read it in any case.
"Tactics are the bricks and sticks that make up a game, but positional play is the architectural blueprint."

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Harvey Williamson
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Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich

Post by Harvey Williamson » Sun Jun 13, 2010 3:03 pm

Albert Silver wrote:
Harvey Williamson wrote:
Albert Silver wrote:
Harvey Williamson wrote:
benstoker wrote:
Sven Schüle wrote: Re. Rybka 3 source code: Unfortunately, I don't have it. (Yes, it was careless. I'm keeping the Rybka 4 source code.) It's not necessary for writing up the Ippolit case, but it would probably make a court case more difficult.

Best regards,
Vas
Vas says he doesn't have the source code for Rybka 3. Surely he doesn't mean he lost it. Did he just sell it to Chessbase or something? Is that what he means? Even so, why would he be so "careless"? What does that mean? Careless in losing the source code? Careless to sell it to someone?

He says he's keeping the source for Rybka 4, but doesn't have the source for Rybka 3. Therefore, Rybka 4 must have hardly any code from Rybka 3.
I think it is a clever use of words. He does not have the exact source from R3 that may be true. I bet he has source from a version very close to R3. It is not uncommon to produce several versions every week.
If he doesn't have the exact source of the released version of Rybka 3, which presumably is what the Ippos stem from, then how is that a clever use of words?
Because many will misunderstand as Ben did. Maybe splitting hairs is a better description. The version may have been called Rybka 2.xxx that was compiled as R3 for release. He may have the 2.xxx code but not the R3!? Does he need the exact source code to prove anything?! I think a source with a few minor differences would be fine.
Sure, but I think his point was that if he tries to prove his case, someone may argue that he is trying to prove the IPPOs came from Rybka 3, but is using a twin instead of the original. That is how I read it in any case.
I read it as, " I am lo lazy and can't be bothered to prove it and I do not care what a few on CCC think." :-)

Albert Silver
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Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich

Post by Albert Silver » Sun Jun 13, 2010 3:07 pm

Harvey Williamson wrote:
Albert Silver wrote:
Harvey Williamson wrote:
Albert Silver wrote:
Harvey Williamson wrote:I think it is a clever use of words. He does not have the exact source from R3 that may be true. I bet he has source from a version very close to R3. It is not uncommon to produce several versions every week.
If he doesn't have the exact source of the released version of Rybka 3, which presumably is what the Ippos stem from, then how is that a clever use of words?
Because many will misunderstand as Ben did. Maybe splitting hairs is a better description. The version may have been called Rybka 2.xxx that was compiled as R3 for release. He may have the 2.xxx code but not the R3!? Does he need the exact source code to prove anything?! I think a source with a few minor differences would be fine.
Sure, but I think his point was that if he tries to prove his case, someone may argue that he is trying to prove the IPPOs came from Rybka 3, but is using a twin instead of the original. That is how I read it in any case.
I read it as, " I am lo lazy and can't be bothered to prove it and I do not care what a few on CCC think." :-)
Well, I read the phrase:

"Re. Rybka 3 source code: Unfortunately, I don't have it. (Yes, it was careless. I'm keeping the Rybka 4 source code.) It's not necessary for writing up the Ippolit case, but it would probably make a court case more difficult."

a bit differently.
"Tactics are the bricks and sticks that make up a game, but positional play is the architectural blueprint."

benstoker
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Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich

Post by benstoker » Sun Jun 13, 2010 3:24 pm

It's just plain weird that Vas says he was careless for not keeping the rybka 3 source code. Why would you not keep the source?


Albert Silver wrote:
Harvey Williamson wrote:
Albert Silver wrote:
Harvey Williamson wrote:
Albert Silver wrote:
Harvey Williamson wrote:I think it is a clever use of words. He does not have the exact source from R3 that may be true. I bet he has source from a version very close to R3. It is not uncommon to produce several versions every week.
If he doesn't have the exact source of the released version of Rybka 3, which presumably is what the Ippos stem from, then how is that a clever use of words?
Because many will misunderstand as Ben did. Maybe splitting hairs is a better description. The version may have been called Rybka 2.xxx that was compiled as R3 for release. He may have the 2.xxx code but not the R3!? Does he need the exact source code to prove anything?! I think a source with a few minor differences would be fine.
Sure, but I think his point was that if he tries to prove his case, someone may argue that he is trying to prove the IPPOs came from Rybka 3, but is using a twin instead of the original. That is how I read it in any case.
I read it as, " I am lo lazy and can't be bothered to prove it and I do not care what a few on CCC think." :-)
Well, I read the phrase:

"Re. Rybka 3 source code: Unfortunately, I don't have it. (Yes, it was careless. I'm keeping the Rybka 4 source code.) It's not necessary for writing up the Ippolit case, but it would probably make a court case more difficult."

a bit differently.

Highendman

Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich

Post by Highendman » Sun Jun 13, 2010 3:25 pm

Thanks for posting this. I like Vas, and I appreciate his attitude towards this. He has got his priorities right and he spends his energy where it matters to him. He also obviously has very thick skin. All admirable qualities.
Those who will choose to keep saying "it's just his word vs. the anonymous Ippo* authors word" I must say - come on... You're not even fooling yourselves any more.

Alexander Schmidt
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Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich

Post by Alexander Schmidt » Sun Jun 13, 2010 3:36 pm

Sven Schüle wrote:To the CCC mods: I suggest to leave this article here in the "General Topics" subforum as I think it might be of long-term general interest for everyone interested in computer chess, although I would also accept a different decision if that fits the current policy better.
I did not expect this post to stay in the general forum. But it looks like VR can accuse others of cloning without proof here, while discussions and defending opinions are moved to the private forum as well as founded accusations against Rybka.

Why don't you guys make VR's opinions sticky?

And why don't we place a Rybka banner at the top?

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Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich

Post by mariaclara » Sun Jun 13, 2010 4:08 pm

:idea: Does it really matter that much :roll: :wink: :wink:
Sven Schüle wrote:Dear readers,

in case someone is interested, please find below the full contents of an email dialogue I had with Vasik Rajlich during the past two days. I did not remove or edit any part of the original emails except mail addresses, line break issues, and presentation of URLs. Both involved parties explicitly allow publishing of these emails in the TalkChess forum.

To the CCC mods: I suggest to leave this article here in the "General Topics" subforum as I think it might be of long-term general interest for everyone interested in computer chess, although I would also accept a different decision if that fits the current policy better.

As always, rational and civilized comments are welcome. I propose to concentrate on Vasik's statements mainly, not on the contents of my first email which does also contain my personal opinions and had the intention to introduce myself since I had to assume that Vasik did not know me until then.

Best regards,
Vas
[/quote]
.
.

................. Mu Shin ..........................

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Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich

Post by Uri Blass » Sun Jun 13, 2010 4:38 pm

benstoker wrote:
Sven Schüle wrote: Re. Rybka 3 source code: Unfortunately, I don't have it. (Yes, it was careless. I'm keeping the Rybka 4 source code.) It's not necessary for writing up the Ippolit case, but it would probably make a court case more difficult.

Best regards,
Vas
Vas says he doesn't have the source code for Rybka 3. Surely he doesn't mean he lost it. Did he just sell it to Chessbase or something? Is that what he means? Even so, why would he be so "careless"? What does that mean? Careless in losing the source code? Careless to sell it to someone?

He says he's keeping the source for Rybka 4, but doesn't have the source for Rybka 3. Therefore, Rybka 4 must have hardly any code from Rybka 3.
How do you know that Vas did not lose the source of Rybka3?

I think that it is more logical to think that he lost it and not that he sold it to chessbase.

Edit:
I think that your conclusion about rybka4 does not have to be correct.

It is possible that rybka4 has 90% of rybka3 code but Vas did not save the original rybka3.

Uri

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Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich

Post by Harvey Williamson » Sun Jun 13, 2010 4:44 pm

Uri Blass wrote:
benstoker wrote:
Sven Schüle wrote: Re. Rybka 3 source code: Unfortunately, I don't have it. (Yes, it was careless. I'm keeping the Rybka 4 source code.) It's not necessary for writing up the Ippolit case, but it would probably make a court case more difficult.

Best regards,
Vas
Vas says he doesn't have the source code for Rybka 3. Surely he doesn't mean he lost it. Did he just sell it to Chessbase or something? Is that what he means? Even so, why would he be so "careless"? What does that mean? Careless in losing the source code? Careless to sell it to someone?

He says he's keeping the source for Rybka 4, but doesn't have the source for Rybka 3. Therefore, Rybka 4 must have hardly any code from Rybka 3.
How do you know that Vas did not lose the source of Rybka3?

I think that it is more logical to think that he lost it and not that he sold it to chessbase.

Edit:
I think that your conclusion about rybka4 does not have to be correct.

It is possible that rybka4 has 90% of rybka3 code but Vas did not save the original rybka3.

Uri
Nobody sells their source to CB you provide them with a compiled exe.

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