Another endgame that the Rybka family fails at

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peter
Posts: 3186
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:38 am
Full name: Peter Martan

Re: Another endgame that the Rybka family fails at

Post by peter »

Robert Flesher wrote: 68. f3 Rc1 69. f4+ Kg6 70. Re7 Kf6 71. Re5 c3 72. Rc5 Ke6 73. Kh4 Kd6
74. Rc8 Kd7 75. Rc4 Ke6 76. Kg5 Kd5 77. Rc8 Rg1 78. g4 Rc1 79. Kf6 1-0
I guess 72. (6. from starting position) ...Ke6 is a mistake. (After it, it's a mate in 40 actually using 6MOB)
I don't see any progress after 72...Rc2 isnstead:

8/8/5k2/2R5/5P2/2p3K1/6P1/2r5 b - - 0 6

this is before the 72. (6.) black move and here is my line:

1... Rxc3+ 2. f3 Rc1 3. f4+ Kg6 4. Re7 Kf6 5. Re5 c3 6. Rc5


6...Rc2 7. Kf3 Ke6 8.
g3 Rc1 9. Kg4 c2 10. Kg5 Rg1 11. f5+ Kf7 12. Rxc2

Am I missing something?
Peter.
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peter
Posts: 3186
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:38 am
Full name: Peter Martan

Re: Another endgame that the Rybka family fails at

Post by peter »

kingliveson wrote:The position is draw.
Guess that's right, said so too:

http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopi ... e768b1c61c
Peter.
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peter
Posts: 3186
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:38 am
Full name: Peter Martan

Re: Another endgame that the Rybka family fails at

Post by peter »

Sorry, edit- time's over but here's a little pgn I created to make copy and paste more easy:

[Event "Blitz:4'+2""]
[Site "Dort"]
[Date "2010.05.18"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Robert"]
[Black "Flesher"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[Annotator "Martan,Peter"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "8/5R2/8/6k1/2p5/2P3K1/2r2PP1/8 b - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "22"]

1... Rxc3+ 2. f3 Rc1 3. f4+ Kg6 4. Re7 Kf6 5. Re5 c3 6. Rc5 Rc2 (6... Ke6 $2 {
#40} 7. Kh4 Kd6 8. Rc8 Kd7 9. Rc4 Ke6 10. Kg5 Kd5 11. Rc8 Rg1 12. g4 Rc1 13.
Kf6 Rb1 14. Rxc3 {#22}) 7. Kf3 Ke6 8. g3 Rc1 9. Kg4 (9. g4 Kd6 10. Rc8 c2 11.
Kg2 (11. g5 $4 Rf1+ {-#23}) 11... Kd7) 9... c2 10. Kg5 (10. f5+ Kd6 11. Rc8 Ke7
12. Rc6 Kf7) 10... Rg1 11. f5+ Kf7 12. Rxc2 {0,00 according to 6MOB} 1/2-1/2
Peter.
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Robert Flesher
Posts: 1280
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:06 am

Re: Another endgame that the Rybka family fails at

Post by Robert Flesher »

peter wrote:
Robert Flesher wrote: 68. f3 Rc1 69. f4+ Kg6 70. Re7 Kf6 71. Re5 c3 72. Rc5 Ke6 73. Kh4 Kd6
74. Rc8 Kd7 75. Rc4 Ke6 76. Kg5 Kd5 77. Rc8 Rg1 78. g4 Rc1 79. Kf6 1-0
I guess 72. (6. from starting position) ...Ke6 is a mistake. (After it, it's a mate in 40 actually using 6MOB)
I don't see any progress after 72...Rc2 isnstead:

8/8/5k2/2R5/5P2/2p3K1/6P1/2r5 b - - 0 6

this is before the 72. (6.) black move and here is my line:

1... Rxc3+ 2. f3 Rc1 3. f4+ Kg6 4. Re7 Kf6 5. Re5 c3 6. Rc5


6...Rc2 7. Kf3 Ke6 8.
g3 Rc1 9. Kg4 c2 10. Kg5 Rg1 11. f5+ Kf7 12. Rxc2

Am I missing something?

Maybe not, this was my human analysis. I cannot hope to prove TB's wrong, but I will try :P
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Robert Flesher
Posts: 1280
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:06 am

Re: Another endgame that the Rybka family fails at

Post by Robert Flesher »

peter wrote:
Robert Flesher wrote: 68. f3 Rc1 69. f4+ Kg6 70. Re7 Kf6 71. Re5 c3 72. Rc5 Ke6 73. Kh4 Kd6
74. Rc8 Kd7 75. Rc4 Ke6 76. Kg5 Kd5 77. Rc8 Rg1 78. g4 Rc1 79. Kf6 1-0
I guess 72. (6. from starting position) ...Ke6 is a mistake. (After it, it's a mate in 40 actually using 6MOB)
I don't see any progress after 72...Rc2 isnstead:

8/8/5k2/2R5/5P2/2p3K1/6P1/2r5 b - - 0 6

this is before the 72. (6.) black move and here is my line:

1... Rxc3+ 2. f3 Rc1 3. f4+ Kg6 4. Re7 Kf6 5. Re5 c3 6. Rc5


6...Rc2 7. Kf3 Ke6 8.
g3 Rc1 9. Kg4 c2 10. Kg5 Rg1 11. f5+ Kf7 12. Rxc2

Am I missing something?

Kf3 looks weak to me, Kh3! then if Ke6 g4! This still looks winning to me ?!
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Robert Flesher
Posts: 1280
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:06 am

Re: Another endgame that the Rybka family fails at

Post by Robert Flesher »

kingliveson wrote:The position is draw.

Code: Select all

kingliveson@cygnitec:~> IvanHoe
IvanHoe 9.63b x64
compiled with PREFETCH
compiled with POPCNT
Capitalist multicore mode compiled
Mode with UTILITIES compiled
RobboBases enabled by compile
TotalBaseCache is 1mb + (1mb)
position fen 8/5R2/8/6k1/2p5/2P3K1/2r2PP1/8 b - - 0 67
drawboard
      +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
   8  |   | . |   | . |   | . |   | . |
      +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
   7  | . |   | . |   | . | R | . |   |
      +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
   6  |   | . |   | . |   | . |   | . |
      +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
   5  | . |   | . |   | . |   |<K>|   |
      +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
   4  |   | . |<P>| . |   | . |   | . |
      +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
   3  | . |   | P |   | . |   | K |   |
      +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
   2  |   | . |<R>| . |   | P | P | . |
      +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
   1  | . |   | . |   | . |   | . |   |
      +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
        a   b   c   d   e   f   g   h
8/5R2/8/6k1/2p5/2P3K1/2r2PP1/8 b - - 0 0
setoption name RobboTotalBaseDirectory value /mnt/sdb5/robbobases/RobboBlock/RobboTotalBase
Optional RobboTotalBaseDirectory /mnt/sdb5/robbobases/RobboBlock/RobboTotalBase
setoption name RegisterRobboTotalBases
info string Reading directory /mnt/sdb5/robbobases/RobboBlock/RobboTotalBase
info string 364 RobboTotalBases registered with 791436 indici 3mb
setoption name RobboTripleBaseDirectory value /mnt/sdb5/robbobases/RobboBlock/RobboTripleBase
Optional RobboTripleBaseDirectory /mnt/sdb5/robbobases/RobboBlock/RobboTripleBase
setoption name LoadRobboTripleBases
info string Reading directory /mnt/sdb5/robbobases/RobboBlock/RobboTripleBase
info string 364 RobboTripleBases &#40;645mb&#41;&#58; 615535840 data 14805806+9823864 indici
setoption name Hash value 1024
Optional TranspositionalTabularSizing 1024
setoption name PawnsHash value 128
Optional PawnsZobrist 128
go
info multipv 1 time 9 nodes 14 nps 1000 score cp -13 depth 1 pv c2c3 f2f3
info multipv 1 time 9 nodes 23 nps 2000 score cp -13 depth 1 pv c2c3 f2f3
info depth 2
info multipv 1 time 9 nodes 29 nps 3000 tbhits 1 score cp -13 depth 2 pv c2c3 f2f3
info multipv 1 time 9 nodes 41 nps 4000 tbhits 3 score cp -13 depth 2 pv c2c3 f2f3
info depth 3
info multipv 1 time 10 nodes 114 nps 11000 tbhits 7 score cp -5 depth 3 pv c2c3 f2f3 c3d3
info multipv 1 time 10 nodes 131 nps 13000 tbhits 7 score cp -5 depth 3 pv c2c3 f2f3 c3d3
info depth 4
info multipv 1 time 10 nodes 362 nps 36000 tbhits 24 score cp -12 depth 4 pv c2c3 f2f3 c3d3 g3f2
info multipv 1 time 10 nodes 392 nps 39000 tbhits 24 score cp -12 depth 4 pv c2c3 f2f3 c3d3 g3f2
info depth 5
info multipv 1 time 10 nodes 1038 nps 103000 tbhits 45 score cp 13 depth 5 pv c2c3 f2f3 c3d3 g3f2 c4c3 f3f4 g5g4
info multipv 1 time 10 nodes 1067 nps 106000 tbhits 47 score cp 13 depth 5 pv c2c3 f2f3 c3d3 g3f2 c4c3 f3f4 g5g4
info depth 6
info multipv 1 time 11 nodes 2115 nps 192000 tbhits 100 score cp 14 depth 6 pv c2c3 f2f3 c3d3 g3f2 c4c3 f7c7 d3d2 f2e3
info multipv 1 time 11 nodes 2145 nps 195000 tbhits 100 score cp 14 depth 6 pv c2c3 f2f3 c3d3 g3f2 c4c3 f7c7 d3d2 f2e3
info depth 7
info multipv 1 time 11 nodes 2860 nps 260000 tbhits 113 score cp 14 depth 7 pv c2c3 f2f3 c3d3 g3f2 c4c3 f7c7 g5f6 f2e2 d3d2 e2e3
info multipv 1 time 11 nodes 2894 nps 263000 tbhits 113 score cp 14 depth 7 pv c2c3 f2f3 c3d3 g3f2 c4c3 f7c7 g5f6 f2e2 d3d2 e2e3
info depth 8
info multipv 1 time 12 nodes 4268 nps 355000 tbhits 153 score cp 6 upperbound depth 8 pv c2c3 f2f3 c3d3 g3f2 c4c3 f7c7 g5f4 c7c4 f4e5 c4e4 e5f5
info depth 8
info multipv 1 time 13 nodes 5427 nps 417000 tbhits 158 score cp 6 depth 8 pv c2c3 f2f3 c3d3 g3f2 c4c3 g2g4 d3d5 f7c7 d5d2 f2e3
info multipv 1 time 13 nodes 5436 nps 418000 tbhits 158 score cp 6 depth 8 pv c2c3 f2f3 c3d3 g3f2 c4c3 g2g4 d3d5 f7c7 d5d2 f2e3
info depth 9
info multipv 1 time 17 nodes 14475 nps 851000 tbhits 448 score cp 0 depth 9 pv c2c3 f2f3 c3b3 f7c7 c4c3 c7c5 g5g6 g3f4 b3b2 c5c3 b2g2 c3c5
info multipv 1 time 18 nodes 14685 nps 815000 tbhits 450 score cp 0 depth 9 pv c2c3 f2f3 c3b3 f7c7 c4c3 c7c5 g5g6 g3f4 b3b2 c5c3 b2g2 c3c5
info depth 10
.
.
.
info multipv 1 time 806940 nodes 4775756172 nps 5918000 tbhits 524499694 score cp -43 depth 38 pv c2c3 f2f3 c3c1 f7e7 c1c2 f3f4 g5f6 e7e5 c4c3 g3f3 f6f7 g2g4 c2c1 f3g2 c1d1 e5c5 d1d3 g2f2 f7e6 f2e2 d3h3 g4g5 h3g3 c5e5 e6d6 e5f5 d6e6 f5c5 e6d6 c5b5 g3g4 b5b4 g4g2 e2f3 c3c2 b4d4 d6e6 d4e4 e6d6 e4c4 g2d2 f3e4 d2g2 c4c8 d6d7 c8c5 d7d6 c5c3 g2e2 e4d3 e2f2 d3e3 f2h2
I am not sure it is a draw.... unless you have a 7 piece endgame TB ?
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Robert Flesher
Posts: 1280
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:06 am

Re: Another endgame that the Rybka family fails at

Post by Robert Flesher »

peter wrote:Sorry, edit- time's over but here's a little pgn I created to make copy and paste more easy:

[Event "Blitz:4'+2""]
[Site "Dort"]
[Date "2010.05.18"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Robert"]
[Black "Flesher"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[Annotator "Martan,Peter"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "8/5R2/8/6k1/2p5/2P3K1/2r2PP1/8 b - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "22"]

1... Rxc3+ 2. f3 Rc1 3. f4+ Kg6 4. Re7 Kf6 5. Re5 c3 6. Rc5 Rc2 (6... Ke6 $2 {
#40} 7. Kh4 Kd6 8. Rc8 Kd7 9. Rc4 Ke6 10. Kg5 Kd5 11. Rc8 Rg1 12. g4 Rc1 13.
Kf6 Rb1 14. Rxc3 {#22}) 7. Kf3 Ke6 8. g3 Rc1 9. Kg4 (9. g4 Kd6 10. Rc8 c2 11.
Kg2 (11. g5 $4 Rf1+ {-#23}) 11... Kd7) 9... c2 10. Kg5 (10. f5+ Kd6 11. Rc8 Ke7
12. Rc6 Kf7) 10... Rg1 11. f5+ Kf7 12. Rxc2 {0,00 according to 6MOB} 1/2-1/2




1. f3 Rc1 2. f4+ Kg6 3. Re7 Kf6 4. Re5 c3 5. Rc5 Rc2 6. Kh3 *


[d]8/5R2/8/6k1/2p5/2r2PK1/6P1/8 b - - 0 1

getting this position, in which I do not see how black makes progress and white should win EASY ?!

[d]8/8/5k2/2R5/5P2/2p4K/2r3P1/8 b - - 0 6
Still looks winning !
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Robert Flesher
Posts: 1280
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:06 am

Re: Another endgame that the Rybka family fails at

Post by Robert Flesher »

kingliveson wrote:The position is draw.

Code: Select all

kingliveson@cygnitec&#58;~> IvanHoe
IvanHoe 9.63b x64
compiled with PREFETCH
compiled with POPCNT
Capitalist multicore mode compiled
Mode with UTILITIES compiled
RobboBases enabled by compile
TotalBaseCache is 1mb + &#40;1mb&#41;
position fen 8/5R2/8/6k1/2p5/2P3K1/2r2PP1/8 b - - 0 67
drawboard
      +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
   8  |   | . |   | . |   | . |   | . |
      +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
   7  | . |   | . |   | . | R | . |   |
      +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
   6  |   | . |   | . |   | . |   | . |
      +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
   5  | . |   | . |   | . |   |<K>|   |
      +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
   4  |   | . |<P>| . |   | . |   | . |
      +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
   3  | . |   | P |   | . |   | K |   |
      +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
   2  |   | . |<R>| . |   | P | P | . |
      +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
   1  | . |   | . |   | . |   | . |   |
      +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
        a   b   c   d   e   f   g   h
8/5R2/8/6k1/2p5/2P3K1/2r2PP1/8 b - - 0 0
setoption name RobboTotalBaseDirectory value /mnt/sdb5/robbobases/RobboBlock/RobboTotalBase
Optional RobboTotalBaseDirectory /mnt/sdb5/robbobases/RobboBlock/RobboTotalBase
setoption name RegisterRobboTotalBases
info string Reading directory /mnt/sdb5/robbobases/RobboBlock/RobboTotalBase
info string 364 RobboTotalBases registered with 791436 indici 3mb
setoption name RobboTripleBaseDirectory value /mnt/sdb5/robbobases/RobboBlock/RobboTripleBase
Optional RobboTripleBaseDirectory /mnt/sdb5/robbobases/RobboBlock/RobboTripleBase
setoption name LoadRobboTripleBases
info string Reading directory /mnt/sdb5/robbobases/RobboBlock/RobboTripleBase
info string 364 RobboTripleBases &#40;645mb&#41;&#58; 615535840 data 14805806+9823864 indici
setoption name Hash value 1024
Optional TranspositionalTabularSizing 1024
setoption name PawnsHash value 128
Optional PawnsZobrist 128
go
info multipv 1 time 9 nodes 14 nps 1000 score cp -13 depth 1 pv c2c3 f2f3
info multipv 1 time 9 nodes 23 nps 2000 score cp -13 depth 1 pv c2c3 f2f3
info depth 2
info multipv 1 time 9 nodes 29 nps 3000 tbhits 1 score cp -13 depth 2 pv c2c3 f2f3
info multipv 1 time 9 nodes 41 nps 4000 tbhits 3 score cp -13 depth 2 pv c2c3 f2f3
info depth 3
info multipv 1 time 10 nodes 114 nps 11000 tbhits 7 score cp -5 depth 3 pv c2c3 f2f3 c3d3
info multipv 1 time 10 nodes 131 nps 13000 tbhits 7 score cp -5 depth 3 pv c2c3 f2f3 c3d3
info depth 4
info multipv 1 time 10 nodes 362 nps 36000 tbhits 24 score cp -12 depth 4 pv c2c3 f2f3 c3d3 g3f2
info multipv 1 time 10 nodes 392 nps 39000 tbhits 24 score cp -12 depth 4 pv c2c3 f2f3 c3d3 g3f2
info depth 5
info multipv 1 time 10 nodes 1038 nps 103000 tbhits 45 score cp 13 depth 5 pv c2c3 f2f3 c3d3 g3f2 c4c3 f3f4 g5g4
info multipv 1 time 10 nodes 1067 nps 106000 tbhits 47 score cp 13 depth 5 pv c2c3 f2f3 c3d3 g3f2 c4c3 f3f4 g5g4
info depth 6
info multipv 1 time 11 nodes 2115 nps 192000 tbhits 100 score cp 14 depth 6 pv c2c3 f2f3 c3d3 g3f2 c4c3 f7c7 d3d2 f2e3
info multipv 1 time 11 nodes 2145 nps 195000 tbhits 100 score cp 14 depth 6 pv c2c3 f2f3 c3d3 g3f2 c4c3 f7c7 d3d2 f2e3
info depth 7
info multipv 1 time 11 nodes 2860 nps 260000 tbhits 113 score cp 14 depth 7 pv c2c3 f2f3 c3d3 g3f2 c4c3 f7c7 g5f6 f2e2 d3d2 e2e3
info multipv 1 time 11 nodes 2894 nps 263000 tbhits 113 score cp 14 depth 7 pv c2c3 f2f3 c3d3 g3f2 c4c3 f7c7 g5f6 f2e2 d3d2 e2e3
info depth 8
info multipv 1 time 12 nodes 4268 nps 355000 tbhits 153 score cp 6 upperbound depth 8 pv c2c3 f2f3 c3d3 g3f2 c4c3 f7c7 g5f4 c7c4 f4e5 c4e4 e5f5
info depth 8
info multipv 1 time 13 nodes 5427 nps 417000 tbhits 158 score cp 6 depth 8 pv c2c3 f2f3 c3d3 g3f2 c4c3 g2g4 d3d5 f7c7 d5d2 f2e3
info multipv 1 time 13 nodes 5436 nps 418000 tbhits 158 score cp 6 depth 8 pv c2c3 f2f3 c3d3 g3f2 c4c3 g2g4 d3d5 f7c7 d5d2 f2e3
info depth 9
info multipv 1 time 17 nodes 14475 nps 851000 tbhits 448 score cp 0 depth 9 pv c2c3 f2f3 c3b3 f7c7 c4c3 c7c5 g5g6 g3f4 b3b2 c5c3 b2g2 c3c5
info multipv 1 time 18 nodes 14685 nps 815000 tbhits 450 score cp 0 depth 9 pv c2c3 f2f3 c3b3 f7c7 c4c3 c7c5 g5g6 g3f4 b3b2 c5c3 b2g2 c3c5
info depth 10
.
.
.
info multipv 1 time 806940 nodes 4775756172 nps 5918000 tbhits 524499694 score cp -43 depth 38 pv c2c3 f2f3 c3c1 f7e7 c1c2 f3f4 g5f6 e7e5 c4c3 g3f3 f6f7 g2g4 c2c1 f3g2 c1d1 e5c5 d1d3 g2f2 f7e6 f2e2 d3h3 g4g5 h3g3 c5e5 e6d6 e5f5 d6e6 f5c5 e6d6 c5b5 g3g4 b5b4 g4g2 e2f3 c3c2 b4d4 d6e6 d4e4 e6d6 e4c4 g2d2 f3e4 d2g2 c4c8 d6d7 c8c5 d7d6 c5c3 g2e2 e4d3 e2f2 d3e3 f2h2

you need to refute all lines, not just show one line by Robbo. Frankly I don't trust Robbo in this endgame. It may play it poorly and get to a position that is infact a draw with 6 piece tablebases.
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peter
Posts: 3186
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:38 am
Full name: Peter Martan

Re: Another endgame that the Rybka family fails at

Post by peter »

Robert Flesher wrote:
1. f3 Rc1 2. f4+ Kg6 3. Re7 Kf6 4. Re5 c3 5. Rc5 Rc2 6. Kh3 *


[d]8/5R2/8/6k1/2p5/2r2PK1/6P1/8 b - - 0 1

getting this position, in which I do not see how black makes progress and white should win EASY ?!

[d]8/8/5k2/2R5/5P2/2p4K/2r3P1/8 b - - 0 6
Still looks winning !
But it isn't!
:)
6. Kh3 Rf2 7. Rc6+ Ke7 8. Kg3 Rc2 9. Kf3

The white King cannot leave it's g-pawn, exchanging this against the black one is 6MOB remis, the f-pawn is blocked by the black King and the g-pawn cannot advance in front of it's King, making a check by the black rook possible, which, after c2, would allow the promotion of the black pawn, you see?
Peter.
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Robert Flesher
Posts: 1280
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:06 am

Re: Another endgame that the Rybka family fails at

Post by Robert Flesher »

peter wrote:
Robert Flesher wrote:
1. f3 Rc1 2. f4+ Kg6 3. Re7 Kf6 4. Re5 c3 5. Rc5 Rc2 6. Kh3 *


[d]8/5R2/8/6k1/2p5/2r2PK1/6P1/8 b - - 0 1

getting this position, in which I do not see how black makes progress and white should win EASY ?!

[d]8/8/5k2/2R5/5P2/2p4K/2r3P1/8 b - - 0 6
Still looks winning !
But it isn't!
:)
6. Kh3 Rf2 7. Rc6+ Ke7 8. Kg3 Rc2 9. Kf3

The white King cannot leave it's g-pawn, exchanging this against the black one is 6MOB remis, the f-pawn is blocked by the black King and the g-pawn cannot advance in front of it's King, making a check by the black rook possible, which, after c2, would allow the promotion of the black pawn, you see?
lets play it out! :P I have no intention of exchanging any pawns. To my eyes, with no computer help, it looks like white is in zugzwang.
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