Chessbase Promoting RobboLito?

[kingliveson]

Background: RobboLito discussion on playchess.com has never been prohibited. Yesterday, I posted a question asking whether banning of RobboLito chess engine was company’s policy or the rule of one of the sysops (Harvey Williamson). This question was phrased this way because several weeks back when prompted regarding this rule, Harvey Williamson stated that he had received a personal email from Vasik Rajlich confirming RobboLito to be a clone of Rybka. The emails between Holger Lieske (Chessbase staffer) and me tell the rest of the story.

From: Franklin
Subject: Chessbase Discussion--Mute
Date: 12/01/2009 05:10 PM
To: Holger Lieske



My user id is xxxx.

Could you please explain which playchess/chessbase policy I violated that warrant you muting my account? I was not abrasive or rude in any manner. I posted the chat conversation in the engine room to the public chat. You then asked what my problem was. I said i did not understand what you meant by that. You replied you were warning me. I said that I believe this conversation should be public. You replied that you are muting me. Could you please explain the reason for this decision?


Franklin

WG: Chessbase Discussion--Mute // promoting Robbolito‏
From: Holger Lieske
Sent: Tue 12/01/09 6:01 PM
To: Franklin

Von: Holger Lieske [mailto:xxx@xxx.xxx]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 1. Dezember 2009 23:25
An: 'Franklin'
Cc: 'Rob Osborne'; 'Harvey Williamson'
Betreff: AW: Chessbase Discussion--Mute // promoting Robbolito

Hello,

I am sorry, but I wanted to tell you in private. Since you were not interested in that, I had no other choice.

Since you took that even not needed discussion into the channels, it seemed to me, you wanted to promote Robbolito and Ippolito. We cannot accept this. You have received before, in chat to all, tells by me learning you that Robbolito is considered by CB as clone engine.

How do we proceed now? You should keep in mind: I will not allow any clones on playchess. I will not allow campaings to support and promote clones and guys who steal intellectual property.

Best regards - Mit freundlichen Grüssen
Holger Lieske
SysOp www.playchess.com - www.schach.de

ChessBase Schachprogramme Schachdatenbank Verlagsgesellschaft mbH
Mexikoring 35 - 22297 Hamburg - Germany
Tel.: ++49 40 - 63 90 60 - 0 Fax: ++49 40 - 630 12 82
Geschäftsführer: Matthias Wüllenweber, Rainer Woisin
Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Hamburg HRB 40336
USt.-Id.-Nr. DE 118644875

RE: WG: Chessbase Discussion--Mute // promoting Robbolito‏
From: Franklin
Sent: Tue 12/01/09 7:33 PM
To: Holger Lieske

Hi,

The subject of your email suggests and implies that I was promoting Robbolito or an illegal activity. This is not the case. The debate was whether or not the banning of Robblolito is a Chessbase policy or the policy of an individual, namely Harvey Williamson. Please provide documentation supporting your claim.

I summarized the debate and posted it on the English Channel. This is what I posted:

“Well, I have asked the sysop here whether or not the banning of Robbolito in the engine room is Company's policy or the policy of an individual (Harvey Williamson). Holger_Lieske responded that it is CB policy. I then stated that I have contacted CB and did not receive any response indicating this is a CB policy. Holger_Lieske say he does not know why and he is not part of the bureau. Then where is he getting this information?”

Immediately after posting the above comment, you contacted me asking for a private chat. I said I would rather the conversation be public though I did not post any other public comments. Your next statement to me was " I am warning you." You asked me what my problems were, and I replied I did not understand what you meant by that. You then sent me a message that you are muting me and proceeded to log me off.

Since my main account was muted, I created another account to talk to Rob Osborne who then gave me your email. Harvey Williamson was around so I asked why my account was muted. He said it was noted to be “comments on robbo.” I asked whether "comments about robbo" were a violation of Chessbase’s policy and he replied the engine is not allowed to be used. You (Holger_Lieske) then came on and sent me a private chat that I should check my email.

After noticing I did not receive your email and related this to you, you replied it was not your problem and that you will not send the email again. You proceed to boot me from the server and banned the newly created account which I am entitled. I had to create another account and asked Harvey Williamson what in the world was going on?! He told me he was on vacation and to contact Chessbase.

You came on again and to what could be described as harassing me. You proceed to say thing like "Free intellectual all property" and “Free Robbolito." It was not until you found out I was documenting the conversation did you change your tone towards me. This is when you decided you will resend the email explaining the reason for muting my account. You then said there was no reason to talk about a public discussion in the English Channel.

I paid for full access and I am entitled to that. I have not violated Chessbase’s policy and I am asking that my account be reinstated to its full state. If you have documentation that what I have said so far is not exactly what happened and that I violated Chessbase’s policy by promoting illegal activity which is implied as reason for your decision, make it available otherwise, reinstate my account.

Franklin

AW: WG: Chessbase Discussion--Mute // promoting Robbolito‏
From: Holger Lieske
Sent: Tue 12/01/09 9:10 PM
To: Franklin


Dear Sir,

you won't get me into an endless conversation nor discussion. You got told again and again: Robbolito not allowed on Playchess.com. The who or what is simply not your business.
Nickname "xxxx": enter your full name, then send me an email. I will give the rank you can be awarded according the common requirements.
Chat: Your quote of my chat in the English channel is simply falsifying my chat to you. I will no way accept that. Right now I don't see any reason to give the chat right back.

"Kingliveson (English): Well, I have asked the sysop here whether or not the banning of Robbolito in the engine room is Company's policy or the policy of an individual (Harvey Williamson). Holger_Lieske responded that it is CB policy. I then stated that I have contacted CB and did not receive any response indicating this is a CB policy. Holger_Lieske say he does not know why and he is not part of the bureau. Then where is he getting this information?"

Best regards - Mit freundlichen Grüssen
Holger Lieske
SysOp www.playchess.com - www.schach.de

ChessBase Schachprogramme Schachdatenbank Verlagsgesellschaft mbH
Mexikoring 35 - 22297 Hamburg - Germany
Tel.: ++49 40 - 63 90 60 - 0 Fax: ++49 40 - 630 12 82
Geschäftsführer: Matthias Wüllenweber, Rainer Woisin
Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Hamburg HRB 40336
USt.-Id.-Nr. DE 118644875

PS: stop to create new nicks without serial no.

RE: AW: WG: Chessbase Discussion--Mute // promoting Robbolito‏
From: Franklin
Sent: Tue 12/01/09 10:12 PM
To: Holger Lieske


Mr. Lieske,

As to “the who and what” not being any of my business, I beg to differ. Yes, it has been mentioned by sysop on playchess.com that RobboLito use is not permitted. However, many wonder whether this decision was a company’s policy or individuals creating their own rules based on friendship with the author of the supposedly cloned engine. Furthermore, there is no public statement by either the author of the supposedly clone[d] chess engine or its distributors that RobboLito is an illegal program. Regardless, I have adhered to these rules not to use the engine.

You say my quote of you in the English Channel was falsification of your chat to me. I did not post any private comments between you and me in the English Channel—there was no private chat between us until I posted in the English Channel. Everything was done in the public section of the Engine Room and it was the reason I wanted our private conversation to be public. There were many witnesses who took part in the discussion and can support what I have stated. Which of my statement do you find not to be accurate?

Again, I ask that my account be reinstated to its full capacity. There is no reason at all for my account to be muted. I was in no way rude to you or any other members and did not break any rules. If anything, you were harsh towards me for no reason until you figured I was logging the chats. You still have not said which policy I violated that warrants the muting of my account. Asking about “the who and what” is not a policy violation. Summarizing the content of a public discussion and posting it on the English Channel is not a policy violation. You ought not to treat people paying money to keep the server up this way. Don’t forget that without the people there would be no playchess.com….


Franklin

Some Raw Log From Playchess.com:

Holger_Lieske: Hi
Holger_Lieske: you got a reply
->Holger_Lieske: I did not recieve a reply
->Holger_Lieske: What rule did i violate that warrant the muting of my account?
Holger_Lieske: check the email 1st, please, then talk
->Holger_Lieske: Server email or personal email i used in contacting you?
Holger_Lieske: email
Holger_Lieske: xxxx@xxxx.com
->Holger_Lieske: You might have to resend it as i dont see it.
Holger_Lieske: no sorry.
Holger_Lieske: I will not sent it again
Holger_Lieske: I have even spent enough time with you
Holger_Lieske: dont get me wrong
Holger_Lieske: but there is a clear line
Holger_Lieske: and YOU crossed that
Holger_Lieske: bye
->Holger_Lieske: You will not resend the email though i dont have it?
Holger_Lieske: honestly Sir, there are 2 ways
->Holger_Lieske: And you will continue to mute my account though i violated no policy?
Holger_Lieske: you want to start that theater again?
Holger_Lieske: okay
Connection to server lost, 17:35:36 (Boots and bans the account)
Trying playchess.com

Some More Playchess.com Raw Log:

Holger_Lieske: Sir?
Holger_Lieske: do you want to create now hundreds of nicks?
Holger_Lieske: I will not accept that
->Holger_Lieske: Yes, I am listening
->Holger_Lieske: No
Holger_Lieske: to tell you again: I sent an email
->Holger_Lieske: That is not my intent
Holger_Lieske: if you did not receive it: not my problem
->Holger_Lieske: I am telling you I did not receive it

I have not received a reply since my last email to Holger Lieske and I don’t expect one because he does not have a case against me. My Bishop Ranking was demoted to a Pawn and my account remains muted. I paid money for this? Now, I have seen some of the Playchess.com staff members here, and I wonder if they want to add anything since there is technically none existing Chessbase customer service.

Is it ok to accuse someone of wrongdoing without providing proof?

[Rolf]

Is it ok to accuse someone of wrongdoing without providing proof?

Look, Franklin. You have no case! That is your problem. Playchess reacted exactly in a counter way to what you want to imply here, namely that this program you mentioned is sound. It is not for ChessBase at least and they wont let you play with that engine. Period.

But you can now come back here and endlessly mourn about the lacking proof from Vas. But you are incapable of realising that Playchess basically supports Vas. However this is bad news for you and you wont repeat it with joy.

Further questions? No tears! You wanted to implement a clone over there and they said NO!

Look Franklin, you dont have a complete name. So, it makes fun for you to quote all the stuff from Holger. Yes, that is funny. Why in hell the World doesnt like terrorists and anonymity?

[Dr.Wael Deeb]

Is it ok to accuse someone of wrongdoing without providing proof?

Look, Franklin. You have no case! That is your problem. Playchess reacted exactly in a counter way to what you want to imply here, namely that this program you mentioned is sound. It is not for ChessBase at least and they wont let you play with that engine. Period.

But you can now come back here and endlessly mourn about the lacking proof from Vas. But you are incapable of realising that Playchess basically supports Vas. However this is bad news for you and you wont repeat it with joy.

Further questions? No tears! You wanted to implement a clone over there and they said NO!

Look Franklin, you dont have a complete name. So, it makes fun for you to quote all the stuff from Holger. Yes, that is funny. Why in hell the World doesnt like terrorists and anonymity?

ChessBase will support the next heyday of the computer chess scene and there is a big possibility that this won't be Rybka....Business has nothing to do with sects Rolf,try to understand that....
You say chess terrorists,I say lying the customers because of $$$,but this won't last long,it's the begining of the end,Rybka is no longer number one whether you like it or not....
Good night and sleep tight,
Dr.D

[Albert Silver]

I don't know what you hope to accomplish. After all, Chessbase publishes and sells Rybka. Which do you think is the more likely scenario?

a) They will defend the author of the program with whom they have a contract, or

b) tell the programmer to go to hell so you can run it on Playchess.

[Milos]

b) tell the programmer to go to hell so you can run it on Playchess.

Running "it" on Playchess was never really a problem.

Btw. I couldn't get without noticing that Rybka 3 really improved performance on Playchess during last month. The same happened with some Togas and Shredders. Now, how the hell that could be?

[mariaclara]

terrible !

Is it ok to accuse someone of wrongdoing without providing proof?

Look, Franklin. You have no case! That is your problem. Playchess reacted exactly in a counter way to what you want to imply here, namely that this program you mentioned is sound. It is not for ChessBase at least and they wont let you play with that engine. Period.

But you can now come back here and endlessly mourn about the lacking proof from Vas. But you are incapable of realising that Playchess basically supports Vas. However this is bad news for you and you wont repeat it with joy.

Further questions? No tears! You wanted to implement a clone over there and they said NO!

Look Franklin, you dont have a complete name. So, it makes fun for you to quote all the stuff from Holger. Yes, that is funny. Why in hell the World doesnt like terrorists and anonymity?

ChessBase will support the next heyday of the computer chess scene and there is a big possibility that this won't be Rybka....Business has nothing to do with sects Rolf,try to understand that....
You say chess terrorists,I say lying the customers because of $$$,but this won't last long,it's the begining of the end,Rybka is no longer number one whether you like it or not....
Good night and sleep tight,
Dr.D

[kingliveson]

I don't know what you hope to accomplish. After all, Chessbase publishes and sells Rybka. Which do you think is the more likely scenario?

a) They will defend the author of the program with whom they have a contract, or

b) tell the programmer to go to hell so you can run it on Playchess.

It seems we agree that this is about money rather than doing what is right. And of course you run a business to make money. That said, I can't imagine a company based in the United States deciding to limit the service fully paid for because a customer dare to ask questions. If you don’t want my business, cancel the account, prorate the service and refund my money. You can’t diminish the service I paid money for without there being some kind of contractual violation. Apparently, you can in Germany where there is no accountability.

[Graham Banks]

I see that everybody else has their name quoted in full. Who are you? What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

[kingliveson]

I see that everybody else has their name quoted in full. Who are you? What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Unfortunately, I can't edit the user name.

Go through the book section of http://www.playwitharena.com/ and you will see who I am.

[Graham Banks]

I see that everybody else has their name quoted in full. Who are you? What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Unfortunately, I can't edit the user name.

Go through the book section of http://www.playwitharena.com/ and you will see who I am.

Okay.