CCT 12: Rule changes and upcoming faster event.

[hgm]

Does she know the inner workings of the engine? Can she answer questions pertaining to the way the book was made? The interface used?

No she doesn't. Why should she? You don't mention _any_ of this in the written rules. If this is what you require, you'd better mention it, or prepare to be challenged by someone at a time that doesn't suit you. Bringing coffee is of course "reductio ad absurdum". But there is a continuous scale there, from dusting off the keyboard to playing against the engine to see if there are interface bugs, running tournaments wth the engine, to preparing a true-type chess font for the GUI display. You better give some indication of the requirements in the rules. That's all I wanted to say.

You opened the door to this one, so I am going to walk right through it...

Rybka in CCT6
Rybka in CCT8

Quite a difference in strength, wouldn't you say? When I called out the program as being a clone of Fruit back then, I was slammed from every corner of the planet.

While known in 2004, Rybka was hardly a strong program. In 2006 it was and still is pretty unbeatable.

Sure, but now try to displace yourself into the skin of "the enemy": Say I wanted to cheat myself into being mistaken for a skilfull chess programmer. So I cannot make my own private Fruit clone, and enter it as an 2800+ engine into the tournament.

So I invest a week in writing a simplistic 1800-elo engine, little more than alpha-beta + piece-square tables, send it to Chess War, publish the source so everyone can see that it is original, wait 6 months, and bingo! My 2800+ Fruit clone can be entered, as I am now a "recognized author".

It is just so easy to subvert this rule.

I would probably never challenge the code of an established program like Hiarcs or Rybka. They have been in development and known for a very long time.

If Norman Schmidt were to try and enter, his code would be challenged instantly.

Do you see what I mean?

I see what you mean, but is "probably" good enough to them? Also here there is a continuous scale, from Rybka to Youk. Say I am an author of a 2400 engine, and I just invented a really revolutionary pruning technique that ups my engines strength to 2700. If I would prefer to keep that invention secret for the time being, would it be safe for me to enter the tournament? Or would it open up the possibility that my invention will be scrutinized by I don't know who? (With the alternative that I will be banned for life.)

[pijl]

I have had a computer account on FICS for several years without any problems. The main issue is not having many other 'authors' to play, mostly computer jockies with the hobby of maximising their rating. But I guess this is true of any server.

I was not making trouble except for improving my program which at least one of the admins did not like. And that admin is still there.
That took place in 2003 so let's hope things are arranged a bit better now.
I registered a human account on FICS (bigarrow, same as on ICC) and applied for a computer account (thebaron3 as both baron and thebaron were already taken). The reason I stated on the application form was to participate in CCT Tournaments. Let's see what the response will be (and how soon ...)
Richard.

[michiguel]

I have had a computer account on FICS for several years without any problems. The main issue is not having many other 'authors' to play, mostly computer jockies with the hobby of maximising their rating. But I guess this is true of any server.

I was not making trouble except for improving my program which at least one of the admins did not like. And that admin is still there.
That took place in 2003 so let's hope things are arranged a bit better now.
I registered a human account on FICS (bigarrow, same as on ICC) and applied for a computer account (thebaron3 as both baron and thebaron were already taken). The reason I stated on the application form was to participate in CCT Tournaments. Let's see what the response will be (and how soon ...)
Richard.

I just did that. The first answer from support was fast (telling me I cannot reactivate my old computer account because it was locked for inactivity).
I need to apply for a new account and I did it to computers@freechess.org

My human account was inactive but they never locked it.

Miguel

[Mike S.]

Apparantly FICS has sophisticated rules for computer accounts (although I would guess that they can make exceptions for events like a CCT if required). From the FICS help files:

"You may not (...) make changes that would significantly alter the engine's strenght."

(As I would interprete it, this also has to mean they expect that the hardware is not replaced with a significantly faster one, which could explain if they don't like to re-activate (C) account after long inactivity. This could mean the account is vastly underrated now. - But that is only my interpretation.)

"Computers should always keep information about hardware/software in finger notes."

(etc.)

http://www.freechess.org/Help/HelpFiles/computers.html

I don't know if these rules are different from ICC's, and how much.

[michiguel]

Apparantly FICS has sophisticated rules for computer accounts (although I would guess that they can make exceptions for events like a CCT if required). From the FICS help files:

"You may not (...) make changes that would significantly alter the engine's strenght."

(As I would interprete it, this also has to mean they expect that the hardware is not replaced with a significantly faster one, which could explain if they don't like to re-activate (C) account after long inactivity. This could mean the account is vastly underrated now. - But that is only my interpretation.)

"Computers should always keep information about hardware/software in finger notes."

(etc.)

http://www.freechess.org/Help/HelpFiles/computers.html

I don't know if these rules are different from ICC's, and how much.

All that does not make any sense. Basically, you cannot have an engine under development (you need to apply for a new account every time you have a new version?). Who wants to keep an account with a program and software that you never changes? what is the point to do that?

Knightcap experiments on learning could not have been done under this conditions. What is the reason for these anal retentive rules?

Miguel

[pijl]

Apparantly FICS has sophisticated rules for computer accounts (although I would guess that they can make exceptions for events like a CCT if required). From the FICS help files:

"You may not (...) make changes that would significantly alter the engine's strenght."

(As I would interprete it, this also has to mean they expect that the hardware is not replaced with a significantly faster one, which could explain if they don't like to re-activate (C) account after long inactivity. This could mean the account is vastly underrated now. - But that is only my interpretation.)

"Computers should always keep information about hardware/software in finger notes."

(etc.)

http://www.freechess.org/Help/HelpFiles/computers.html

I don't know if these rules are different from ICC's, and how much.

IMO the people at FICS assume computer accounts are run by bot-kids, not authors. So the rules are targeted at bot-kids. Very restrictive.
ICC is more lenient with this, but there you pay for the right to play.
Richard.

[Dirt]

Have you (this is a plural "you"; the thing I dislike most about the English language is that the second person pronoun is the same in singular and plural).

Thou canst[*] use "you all" to make it clear thou meanest the plural.

*No, the second person singular form is not making a comeback. I'm not at all sure I've used it correctly here.

[michiguel]

I have had a computer account on FICS for several years without any problems. The main issue is not having many other 'authors' to play, mostly computer jockies with the hobby of maximising their rating. But I guess this is true of any server.

I was not making trouble except for improving my program which at least one of the admins did not like. And that admin is still there.
That took place in 2003 so let's hope things are arranged a bit better now.
I registered a human account on FICS (bigarrow, same as on ICC) and applied for a computer account (thebaron3 as both baron and thebaron were already taken). The reason I stated on the application form was to participate in CCT Tournaments. Let's see what the response will be (and how soon ...)
Richard.

I just did that. The first answer from support was fast (telling me I cannot reactivate my old computer account because it was locked for inactivity).
I need to apply for a new account and I did it to computers@freechess.org

My human account was inactive but they never locked it.

Miguel

In order to be fair, now I have to say it took 24 hrs but my account has just been unlocked. They let me used the old one to keep my handle "Gaviota". Maybe their services improved dramatically, which would be fantastic.

Miguel

[CRoberson]

......

The reason for the shorter time control tournaments is to help with gaining rating and establishing your rating deviation on FICS.

.......

Peter

That lame equation again. That is why I stopped playing on FICS as a human. The rating equation is wrong. Even the author admitted it
years ago and modified the equation to adjust for some glaring issues with it. Then he applied for a patent on the new equation. So, you have to pay to use it (that was the case 4 years ago).

Is FICS using the new equation or the same bad old one?

A patent for an equation? What on earth is that?

BTW, why should we care about these ratings to organize a tournament?

Miguel

http://math.bu.edu/people/mg/glicko.html gives the latest on my statement.

Glicko Ratings:


This web site is intended to provide some background in the theory and practice of rating competitors in games and sports.

Two rating systems I have invented:

* The Glicko rating system, which is in the public domain
* The Glicko-2 rating system, an improvement on the original Glicko system. The system was under provisional patent, but is now in the public domain.

So, Glicko-2 was under provisional patent.

Ok, Peter or anybody else. Has FICS gone to Glicko-2. The first Glicko system has serious issues which is why Glicko-2 exists.

[Uri Blass]

Apparantly FICS has sophisticated rules for computer accounts (although I would guess that they can make exceptions for events like a CCT if required). From the FICS help files:

"You may not (...) make changes that would significantly alter the engine's strenght."

(As I would interprete it, this also has to mean they expect that the hardware is not replaced with a significantly faster one, which could explain if they don't like to re-activate (C) account after long inactivity. This could mean the account is vastly underrated now. - But that is only my interpretation.)

"Computers should always keep information about hardware/software in finger notes."

(etc.)

http://www.freechess.org/Help/HelpFiles/computers.html

I don't know if these rules are different from ICC's, and how much.

All that does not make any sense. Basically, you cannot have an engine under development (you need to apply for a new account every time you have a new version?). Who wants to keep an account with a program and software that you never changes? what is the point to do that?

Knightcap experiments on learning could not have been done under this conditions. What is the reason for these anal retentive rules?

Miguel

I do not think that you cannot have an engine under developement but you need to be careful not to develop it too fast or to make counter productive changes if you develop too fast.

"You may not (...) make changes that would significantly alter the engine's strenght"

It does not mean that you are not allowed to make changes.

My understanding is that
if you imrove the engine's strenghth by 50 elo every month then there is no problem and even if you improve the engine by 100 elo every month there is no problem.

The problem is if you start with 1500 engine and change it to 2500 engine.
Human opponents may complain that they lose rating and that it is unfair because they will never meet 1500 human who play at the level of 2500.

In other words if you have a change that improve the engine by 1000 elo and you do not want to create a new acoount then the only option is to add counter productive changes and remove them(for example by making the engine 500 times slower and every month make it twice faster).

Uri