Dear chess fellows,
I have an idea which I think should be tried out before we can state with certanity that machines are better than humans.
As far as I know, still all Human-Machine battle was organized so far the same way as a human-human compatition. We expect the GM to calculate all variations in his mind and make the chosen move on the board.
Why is that when a chess engine as its natural operation can make a move and take it back on a board which is real for itself and let it evaluate the upcoming positions...?
My proposal is to let the human use a special computer tool (a GUI or database program or whatever) to be able to analyze his decisions before making the real move on the board.
Certainly no chess engines can be used for help only databases.
This sounds like correspondence play but with tournament time control and without engine help.
I can imagine that special software should be developed for this purpose based on GMs' requirements.
What is your opinion?
New idea for a fair Human-Machine battle without handycap
Moderators: hgm, Rebel, chrisw
-
- Posts: 64
- Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:07 am
- Location: Budapest, Hungary
New idea for a fair Human-Machine battle without handycap
Regards,
László
László
-
- Posts: 582
- Joined: Wed May 10, 2006 7:28 pm
- Location: Birmingham, England
Re: New idea for a fair Human-Machine battle without handyca
I remember once in a school match seeing my opponent fiddling with something under the table when it was his turn to move. When I challenged him, he produced a pocket set that he'd been analysing on, and said, "Here, you can use it too, and it's not touch move on this set!".
Marek Soszynski
-
- Posts: 3245
- Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:10 am
Re: New idea for a fair Human-Machine battle without handyca
Great idea !
The software should not reject illegal moves.
.
The software should not reject illegal moves.
.
My engine was quite strong till I added knowledge to it.
http://www.chess.hylogic.de
http://www.chess.hylogic.de
-
- Posts: 243
- Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 8:31 am
- Location: Malmö, Sweden
- Full name: Bo Persson
Re: New idea for a fair Human-Machine battle without handyca
What do you mean? The computer has no real board, it is only simulating one in software.Laszlo Gaspar wrote:Dear chess fellows,
I have an idea which I think should be tried out before we can state with certanity that machines are better than humans.
As far as I know, still all Human-Machine battle was organized so far the same way as a human-human compatition. We expect the GM to calculate all variations in his mind and make the chosen move on the board.
Why is that when a chess engine as its natural operation can make a move and take it back on a board which is real for itself and let it evaluate the upcoming positions...?
To be really fair, the computer should also be allowed to use a real human brain!
-
- Posts: 64
- Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:07 am
- Location: Budapest, Hungary
Re: New idea for a fair Human-Machine battle without handyca
Hi Bo,
I meant that the program can make and retract a move in its own "world", in the computer memory and the human should be allowed to do this.
To let it be done on a real board is not sufficient because it is very time consuming and the player can also be confused after long sequences, so not big help.
A special tool can memorize her/him the critical branches so it can be used for fast analysis.
Matthias,
Are you joking or what?:-)
I meant that the program can make and retract a move in its own "world", in the computer memory and the human should be allowed to do this.
To let it be done on a real board is not sufficient because it is very time consuming and the player can also be confused after long sequences, so not big help.
A special tool can memorize her/him the critical branches so it can be used for fast analysis.
Matthias,
Are you joking or what?:-)
Regards,
László
László
-
- Posts: 2071
- Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 3:40 am
- Location: Dune
Re: New idea for a fair Human-Machine battle without handyca
To some Grandmasters the board they conjure up in their minds can be just as real as the board chess engines conjure up during their calculations.
-
- Posts: 3245
- Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:10 am
Re: New idea for a fair Human-Machine battle without handyca
Laszlo Gaspar wrote: Matthias,
Are you joking or what?:-)
No joke !!
Many chess players (even GMs) sometimes play illegal moves in their thoughts.
Software should not eliminate such blunders automatically.
Matthias.
My engine was quite strong till I added knowledge to it.
http://www.chess.hylogic.de
http://www.chess.hylogic.de
-
- Posts: 64
- Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:07 am
- Location: Budapest, Hungary
Re: New idea for a fair Human-Machine battle without handyca
I am very much aware of this!Leto wrote:To some Grandmasters the board they conjure up in their minds can be just as real as the board chess engines conjure up during their calculations.
On the other hand it requires a lot of energy/concentration from them and I can imagine that such help would make them stronger.
Matthias,
Why is it important to let the player commit such a calculation mistake? Or do you think it is just too much help to detect such cases for the player? Well, this is what should be decided, what kind of help to give and what not...
Regards,
László
László
-
- Posts: 10311
- Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:37 am
- Location: Tel-Aviv Israel
Re: New idea for a fair Human-Machine battle without handyca
My opinion is that humans have no chance with your idea.Laszlo Gaspar wrote:Dear chess fellows,
I have an idea which I think should be tried out before we can state with certanity that machines are better than humans.
As far as I know, still all Human-Machine battle was organized so far the same way as a human-human compatition. We expect the GM to calculate all variations in his mind and make the chosen move on the board.
Why is that when a chess engine as its natural operation can make a move and take it back on a board which is real for itself and let it evaluate the upcoming positions...?
My proposal is to let the human use a special computer tool (a GUI or database program or whatever) to be able to analyze his decisions before making the real move on the board.
Certainly no chess engines can be used for help only databases.
This sounds like correspondence play but with tournament time control and without engine help.
I can imagine that special software should be developed for this purpose based on GMs' requirements.
What is your opinion?
What you suggest is not going to make top grandmasters even 100 elo stronger and in the best case they may get level of 2900 elo when rybka is clearly stronger than 3000
Uri
-
- Posts: 10948
- Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:21 pm
- Full name: Kai Laskos
Re: New idea for a fair Human-Machine battle without handyca
What databases? GM's don't have problems with comps in openings, they are actually better there. And there are no middlegame databases, and hard to build in foreseeable future. That's the stage of the game where GM's are much weaker. So, a database is of small importance (I think Kramnik played Fritz with an opening database). You can offer a GM both opening and endgame databases with minimal effect.
Kai
Kai