Fruit vs. Toga poll

[Rolf]

As far as tournaments go, all of the rules prohibited clones prior to
the release of Fruit much less Toga. The only reason I could see the
ICGA allowing cluster Toga in was to allow a scientific experiment on
the clustering of a chess program.

This is completely false! Clones have always been allowed, as they should be. Cluster Toga was allowed because there was permission from all of its authors, including Fabien.

Requiring permissions from the author(s) and not allowing one author in multiple teams solves the problem completely.

If the original author allows a clone to enter, what possible objection could you have to a clone entering? How is this different from a program which is a team effort?

If there are many clones of a single program, the decision might be difficult for the original author and he might have to disappoint many people. Well, though luck! Go write your own program, lazy bastards

No, you allow me to clone use your program and all the competitors will applaud you and also me. Because we are both then commercial I could order some more applaudse. If that wouldnt prove I am real and strong competition for all!

[michiguel]

As far as tournaments go, all of the rules prohibited clones prior to
the release of Fruit much less Toga. The only reason I could see the
ICGA allowing cluster Toga in was to allow a scientific experiment on
the clustering of a chess program.

This is completely false! Clones have always been allowed, as they should be. Cluster Toga was allowed because there was permission from all of its authors, including Fabien.

Requiring permissions from the author(s) and not allowing one author in multiple teams solves the problem completely.

Yes, that is exactly what I proposed. Very simple.
Every entry should list the name of people that contribute it with chess playing code (authors) and their permission.

Miguel
PS: I also believe that this should apply to Nalimov EGTBs. The EGTB code in most engines was cut an pasted from him. is that correct? I did not get an answer to this question yet.

If the original author allows a clone to enter, what possible objection could you have to a clone entering? How is this different from a program which is a team effort?

If there are many clones of a single program, the decision might be difficult for the original author and he might have to disappoint many people. Well, though luck! Go write your own program, lazy bastards

[Christopher Conkie]

What if Fabien Letouzey personally enters Toga and list all the people that worked on the project as co-authors with the authorization of all of them? Would you still say no?

Why enter Toga? His program is called Fruit.

You call changing less than 100 lines work? I bet those who changed them cannot even write a "Hello World" program. If they can (doubtful), they should be able to create their own entry for CCT. Ask yourself why they don't. Ask yourself more importantly why they choose one of the strongest open source programs to amend (or even break).

Could it be that they want to win the tournament?

Could it be that they want to revel in the glory of someone else's hard work?

if the chat performance is an issue, then no operators should be allowed (it may not be a bad idea for some of the tournaments, but that is another issue).

Miguel

By operators do you mean those who changed less than 100 lines in Fruit and then renamed the engine?



If so, yes....they should be barred...from the whole thing, not just the chat.

Christopher

Writing hello world program is an easier task than modifying fruit and making from it stronger program.

Claiming that you think that they cannot do it is only unnecessary insult because you can express opinion against participation of toga without insulting people.

Uri

I doubt it is an insult, more likely it is a fact.

However, just to prove the point Uri, perhaps you should have a go?

Break a leg......love to see the results.

Christopher

[Christopher Conkie]

Somebody felt the need to post a link to his favourite pirate software as the next CCT 2009 candidates. Poll vanished into moderators subforum.

My comment was

I voted for yes, provided it does not endanger the participation of an entry by Ryan Benitez or Fabien Letouzey or another member of the Fruit team that would be the official Fruit representative, provided also that Fabien and Ryan don't object to Toga participating, - I can't imagine that Thomas Gaksch would object-, and it would be an official Toga entry by the TDDB forum, because I see that as the best way to limit the number of Toga entries to one actively developed fork of Fruit, a community effort from the TDDB programmers.

but when I wanted to post this Christopher's sabotage had succeeded and the poll from Peter Skinner had disappeared already...

That's a serious accusation Eelco!

Regardless, the Answer should be in my opinion a resounding NO!

Why?

Miguel

Because the CCT is a programmers tournament Miguel, not a copy/paste tournament. What are the famed Toga Twits going talk about in the chat there? What insight will they be able to offer? Will they be talking about how they changed a few lines in great detail?

There is no such thing as an official Toga entry in anything.

And to Eelco I would say....the following is the bottom line.......

The way to limit Toga entries is not to have one.

Christopher

Could you, sir, copy-paste Toga a couple of times and get a 100 elo improvement every time? From your posts it seems pretty easy.

Toga? A couple of times? Funny.....

Most programs can be improved by changing NONE of the code.

That's right.....NONE sir.

Christopher

[Peter Skinner]

I asked for the poll and topic to be removed as I had received an email from Nolan Denson stating he would be entering Fruit into the CCT with the approval of Ryan and Fabian.

Once that issue was resolved, there was no need for the poll or topic.

Since Fruit was in, Toga was out. Simple as that.

If Fruit had no entered, I would have allowed Toga to participate _if_ Ryan or Fabian had given approval for it's participation.

Since that issue never came to pass, it was easier to just remove the topic/poll to try and avoid a flame war. This is a very sticky subject as rating lists like the CCRL test Toga _and_ Fruit. Toga has been allowed to participate in a WCCC/IPCCC event, so I thought there was no harm in asking. I was _obviously_ wrong.

I should note in reading this thread, that Chris Conkie had nothing to do with my requesting the topic be removed. He did however bring up a very valid point on the issue of clones.

Peter

[Graham Banks]

Hey, I should create my own "derivatives" of Toga or Glaurung and enter it

I can easily alter about 300 lines of code, that quite much. I can call it "very different" than original, so it's not a clone.

Maybe the engine resulted is about 50 points weaker, but it still much stronger than Petir.

When you manage to take the strongest open-source engine and make it 100 points stronger, this would be a big achievement. IMO the less lines of code you change the smarter you actually are. 100 lines of code -> 100 elo improvement means what-1 elo for 1 line? Not bad eh?

Why shouldn't be that encouraged?

you don't get my sarcasm, don't you?

I would not do such shameless thing

Peter - I can understand your not wanting both Fruit and Toga in the same tournament, but why is open source development "shameless"?

Cheers, Graham.

PS - How is Petir coming along these days?

[Peter Skinner]

Peter - I can understand your not wanting both Fruit and Toga in the same tournament, but why is open source development "shameless"?

Cheers, Graham.

PS - How is Petir coming along these days?

I don't see why open source is shameless...

I think it is a great tool for programmers to learn from others, and happens to be the basis that these forums were formed. The exchange of ideas and dialogue on those ideas is what these forums were used for.

Now that very same principle is "shameless"...?

God I wish some of these members could have been here 10 years ago when the CCC was a vibrant community with _real_ discussion on techniques and algorithms. *Sigh*

I _really_ miss those days.

Peter

[Graham Banks]

Peter - I can understand your not wanting both Fruit and Toga in the same tournament, but why is open source development "shameless"?

Cheers, Graham.

PS - How is Petir coming along these days?

I don't see why open source is shameless...

I think it is a great tool for programmers to learn from others, and happens to be the basis that these forums were formed. The exchange of ideas and dialogue on those ideas is what these forums were used for.

Now that very same principle is "shameless"...?

God I wish some of these members could have been here 10 years ago when the CCC was a vibrant community with _real_ discussion on techniques and algorithms. *Sigh*

I _really_ miss those days.

Peter

You do realise that I was asking Peter Alloysius, the Petir author?
However, good to hear your opinion. I hope that the tournament runs smoothly for you.

Cheers, Graham.

[Peter Skinner]

You do realise that I was asking Peter Alloysius, the Petir author?
However, good to hear your opinion. I hope that the tournament runs smoothly for you.

Cheers, Graham.

I did realize who you were talking to, but I couldn't help throwing my two cents in on _that_ topic

Not the author of Petir regards,

Peter

[Peter Aloysius]

Hey, I should create my own "derivatives" of Toga or Glaurung and enter it

I can easily alter about 300 lines of code, that quite much. I can call it "very different" than original, so it's not a clone.

Maybe the engine resulted is about 50 points weaker, but it still much stronger than Petir.

When you manage to take the strongest open-source engine and make it 100 points stronger, this would be a big achievement. IMO the less lines of code you change the smarter you actually are. 100 lines of code -> 100 elo improvement means what-1 elo for 1 line? Not bad eh?

Why shouldn't be that encouraged?

you don't get my sarcasm, don't you?

I would not do such shameless thing

Peter - I can understand your not wanting both Fruit and Toga in the same tournament, but why is open source development "shameless"?

Cheers, Graham.

PS - How is Petir coming along these days?

open source is not shameless. Exchange ideas are not shameless, like we honestly did in the past.

What I mean shameless here is that some person just simply take an open source engine, make a little modification, and try to enter it to a official tournament, and even asking for people support!

Tournament like CCT, or world championship is programmer's tournament. Programmer enter to compete each other, honestly. Nobody would like to enter a tournament and play against 20 version of Fruit. If someone here really like to see how well new Toga or any other "legal clone" perform, he can easily do that in his own computer.

Open source as a learning tool? Fine. But enter it to a tournament? Big No. Claim an open source as your own engine? Big Big No.

I really appreciate Skinner's decision not to including Toga to CCT.

About petir, I stopped it's development.