Derivatives are real programs too

[Ovyron]

As pointed out in a previous post, keeping the same name in a different branch creates confusion (Toga II 3.1.2 and 1.4.1 is a great example because the 1.4.1 is the most recent.) I support name changes for this reason alone.

Single names (always Fruit/Toga) would work if all the programmers joined, made a single version that applied all the improvements, and there was an official fork around, but it seems it's a case of free lancer programmers adding their bits independently, in such cases different names are better.

[Peter Aloysius]

Why derivative should not allowed to enter tournament? Because it hurts programmers who try to stand on their own feet, improving their engine based on their own effort.

Take my engine for example. Why should I work hard to get a few dozen elo points improvement if someone can come out from nowhere, making a few "modification" on Toga source and easily outplay Petir?

If this trend continue, in the future all participants in a tournament or all active engine is "derivative" from other engine.

Another point, if derivative engines legalized, we must apologize to all derivatives in the past that has been labeled as clone. Fafis, El Chinito, Patriot, and others, we must apologize to them.

I believe programs like Toga, Cyclone, StockFish, etc. should be recognized as legitimate engines and allowed entrance into major tournaments.

These 'derivatives' are not the same as 'clones' (which can easily be produced by hacking the original executable with with a hex editor, or simply re-compiling a new executable from source), due to the fact that they often contain enhancements, new ideas, and many hundreds of new lines of code, and are often largely re-written.

I know that Toga recently played in the world championship... I congratulate the tournament organizers for a more liberal and open-minded stance on the issue.

It would be benficial if the chess community (and tournament organizers) stop taking such a narrow view of what constitutes a legitimate engine and what does not...

IMHO, there's no good reason to 'blacklist' derivatives just because the author didn't reinvent the wheel, and started from a known source. That's progress...every tech advance stands on the shoulders of those before them.

a hacked executable, or a derivative where the only change is the name of the program, etc. is clearly not what I'm talking about here, that's different.

I'm expressing my opinion here, because I was just refused entry into the Pan American...apparently fruit derivatives are 'clone's.

Sincerely,
Norm

[Graham Banks]

Another point, if derivative engines legalized, we must apologize to all derivatives in the past that has been labeled as clone. Fafis, El Chinito, Patriot, and others, we must apologize to them.

I don't think that anybody is suggesting that "illegal" clones be legitimised, only those that have gone through the correct legal procedure.
It would have to take a morally bankrupt person to support illegal clones.

Regards, Graham.

[Graham Banks]

Take my engine for example. Why should I work hard to get a few dozen elo points improvement if someone can come out from nowhere, making a few "modification" on Toga source and easily outplay Petir?

Pride, determination, perseverence.
You need to know that many appreciate your efforts with Petir.

Cheers, Graham.

[Peter Aloysius]

And what's your definition by "Illegal"?

If, author of El Chinito and Fafis stated that his engine based on Crafty, should they called illegal clone or derivative?

Based on norm schmid definition, clone is engine that just recompile from other engine without changing anything. That's not the case with El Chinito and Fafis. Both of them made significant changes to Crafty.

Another point, if derivative engines legalized, we must apologize to all derivatives in the past that has been labeled as clone. Fafis, El Chinito, Patriot, and others, we must apologize to them.

I don't think that anybody is suggesting that "illegal" clones be legitimised, only those that have gone through the correct legal procedure.
It would have to take a morally bankrupt person to support illegal clones.

Regards, Graham.

[Dr.Wael Deeb]

And what's your definition by "Illegal"?

If, author of El Chinito and Fafis stated that his engine based on Crafty, should they called illegal clone or derivative?

Based on norm schmid definition, clone is engine that just recompile from other engine without changing anything. That's not the case with El Chinito and Fafis. Both of them made significant changes to Crafty.

Another point, if derivative engines legalized, we must apologize to all derivatives in the past that has been labeled as clone. Fafis, El Chinito, Patriot, and others, we must apologize to them.

I don't think that anybody is suggesting that "illegal" clones be legitimised, only those that have gone through the correct legal procedure.
It would have to take a morally bankrupt person to support illegal clones.

Regards, Graham.

ELChinito is a very attractive chess engine with a unique playing style,it plays much different than Crafty....I think it has a a lot of original ideas in it....

[Peter Aloysius]

And why should I have determination if all reward goes to somebody who come out from nowhere, make little modification to Fruit/Toga, and claim it was his own engine?

Computer chess is already dead.

Take my engine for example. Why should I work hard to get a few dozen elo points improvement if someone can come out from nowhere, making a few "modification" on Toga source and easily outplay Petir?

Pride, determination, perseverence.
You need to know that many appreciate your efforts with Petir.

Cheers, Graham.

[Graham Banks]

And what's your definition by "Illegal"?

A legal derivative should be based upon an open source engine with the original author's permission.

[Graham Banks]

And why should I have determination if all reward goes to somebody who come out from nowhere, make little modification to Fruit/Toga, and claim it was his own engine?

Depends upon your character.

Computer chess is already dead.

Many don't share your opinion.

Take my engine for example. Why should I work hard to get a few dozen elo points improvement if someone can come out from nowhere, making a few "modification" on Toga source and easily outplay Petir?

Pride, determination, perseverence.
You need to know that many appreciate your efforts with Petir.

Cheers, Graham.

[Michel]

The crafty license almost completely outlaws derivatives.
This is not so for Fruit which is GPL 2+.

Please don't confuse the situation for Fruit derivatives with the situation for Crafty derivatives.