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How many "official" Toga projects there is now?

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:56 am
by Jouni
I find situation really confusing. We need overview of all developments
under way. I remember to read 2007, that Thomas Gaksch is stopped to
work with Toga, but that's was happily preliminary info. But who has written Cluster Toga and 3.1.2 SE? Is Fruit under development also?
Are programmers working in co-operation?

thanks Jouni

Re: How many "official" Toga projects there is now

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 9:38 am
by Ryan Benitez
I have no idea about any of th Toga stuff but I can say that Fruit is still developed and is now a bitboard engine with a rewritten eval that is much different than the old eval.

Re: How many "official" Toga projects there is now

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 9:56 am
by Marek Soszynski
Ryan,

On the Fruit website http://www.fruitchess.com/ it says "The development on Fruit by Fabien Letouzey has ceded and it is unlikely to continue." So could you please explain a bit more what you mean by "Fruit is still developed." Thanks.

Re: How many "official" Toga projects there is now

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:24 am
by Thomas Gaksch
Congratulations Ryan,
this redesign was the right step to be sucessfull for the next years. That was really a lot of work for you. but a great decision to do it.
Now in practise Fruit isn´t anymore Fruit 2.1 and in my opinion Fruit is now your own baby. Why didn´t you rename it?


Thomas

Re: How many "official" Toga projects there is now

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:37 am
by Andrej Sidorov
Ryan Benitez wrote:I have no idea about any of th Toga stuff but I can say that Fruit is still developed and is now a bitboard engine with a rewritten eval that is much different than the old eval.
Don't you mean Rybka?

Re: How many "official" Toga projects there is now

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:45 am
by Rolf
Thomas Gaksch wrote:Congratulations Ryan,
this redesign was the right step to be sucessfull for the next years. That was really a lot of work for you. but a great decision to do it.
Now in practise Fruit isn´t anymore Fruit 2.1 and in my opinion Fruit is now your own baby. Why didn´t you rename it?


Thomas
How could a redesign and some changes in the evaluation mean a genuine ownership resp. creativity? If Ryan would lend me the actual code and would stop here, would I then be the owner in three years? Imagine Ryan would even declare that I am now the right owner, am I therefore the creative force behind the project? Although I havnt created anything at all, perhaps except calling it Wilfried?

Re: How many "official" Toga projects there is now

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:17 am
by slobo
Jouni wrote:I find situation really confusing. We need overview of all developments
under way. I remember to read 2007, that Thomas Gaksch is stopped to
work with Toga, but that's was happily preliminary info. But who has written Cluster Toga and 3.1.2 SE? Is Fruit under development also?
Are programmers working in co-operation?

thanks Jouni
Dann Corbit said:

Cluster Toga by Kai Himstedt
Toga II
Gambit Fruit

Plus a plethora of illegitimate clones.

Re: How many "official" Toga projects there is now

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:23 am
by Rolf
slobo wrote:
Jouni wrote:I find situation really confusing. We need overview of all developments
under way. I remember to read 2007, that Thomas Gaksch is stopped to
work with Toga, but that's was happily preliminary info. But who has written Cluster Toga and 3.1.2 SE? Is Fruit under development also?
Are programmers working in co-operation?

thanks Jouni
Dann Corbit said:

Cluster Toga by Kai Himstedt
Toga II
Gambit Fruit

Plus a plethora of illegitimate clones.

I wished to have a map with the many clones so that proximity to one another is to be seen. x for names and y for height of technical translations of something originally known... 950€!

Re: How many "official" Toga projects there is now

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:59 pm
by Thomas Gaksch
what i mean is that changing the engines data structure to bitboard and to rewrite the eval so that it is much different to fruit is nearly the same effort as to write a complete new engine and that also means that there is not much more in common with the original fruit.
but i think you have not the technical background to understand that.

Re: How many "official" Toga projects there is now

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 1:34 pm
by Rolf
Thomas Gaksch wrote:what i mean is that changing the engines data structure to bitboard and to rewrite the eval so that it is much different to fruit is nearly the same effort as to write a complete new engine and that also means that there is not much more in common with the original fruit.
but i think you have not the technical background to understand that.
The latter is correct but what do you think what this means? Let me ask the main question this way. What new ideas from a chesscomputer standpoint are authentic then if all the ideas of someone else are taken and then translated and transformed? Or, please help me out, is everyrthing in computerchess programming ALWAYS only about transforminf or translating or tuning here and there, technically spoken? Are there never new IDEAS? Because these, if ever appearing, are already "stolen" minutes afterwards because everybody is always and continually compiling the codes of all serious competitors? I mean, you are perhaps a good address to explain this for a lay, since you are also only rarely in the daily work?

The answer to my first question is that also if you are absolutely not in the details of a field, you can well judge certain appearences from the outside. Else there could never be an interdisciplinary communication.