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Re: How many "official" Toga projects there is now

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:14 pm
by Thomas Gaksch
very very disappointing. you are one of the developers who intentionally lying. and the problem is that people like rolf, who have no technical background belief you. your analogy is absolute wrong. you know, as good as i know, that improving an good engine about 150 elo is much more difficult than running only the last mile in an marathon.
i would use another analogy. in german there is a car race series called DTM. all the big companies like mercedes, audi paticipate with their teams. There also participates an team called "Audi Sport Team Abt Sportsline". this team drives an audi which is tuned by themselves. they are a very little team from bavaria who have not so much money like the teams from the big companies. but they like car racing and they are very good car tuners. and what happens last year? they won the german championship with their tuned audi. by the way their car isn´t called clone, because the other teams know that it is very difficult to tune a car. and they did it better than audi and mercedes.

you are one of the jealous developer who are very frustrated because their engine isn´t getting stronger. and what do you do for the chess community? have you shown your new ideas? you use linux and open office on the one side and insult open source, oh sorry i mean only toga.

i am very sad that a lot of other engine programmer do the same as you. telling lies to the public.

Re: How many "official" Toga projects there is now

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:15 pm
by Eelco de Groot
Guetti wrote:
Thomas Gaksch wrote:Hello Andreas,
as far as i have understood is that chess64 is only developed by Fabien and Fruit only by Ryan anymore. But Ryan knows it best.
Ah, ok. I probably associated Chess64 somehow with 64-bit.

Then:
Chess64 (Fabien) is a rewritten, multithreaded Fruit?
Fruit (Ryan) is a modified Fruit using bitboards and a rewritten eval?
Toga is a modified Fruit with tuned evaluation and SMP?

And the version playing in CCT10 is the version of Ryan? Sorry, I'm a bit lost with all the versions.
As far as I know Ryan is only testing Chess64 by Fabien but not contributing anything to the code of Chess64. I do believe Chess64 is also a bitboard engine but I don't think Fabien even wants to take a look at any other sources than his own anymore and maybe that is one reason he does not read any message boards? Just my guess, but I can think of more reasons :( :( :( . Ryan is partipating with his Fruit version in CCT but maybe he could say something about the new bitboard code, if there are also any ideas from Chess64 in it?

Regards, Eelco

Re: How many "official" Toga projects there is now

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:33 pm
by Roman Hartmann
Thomas Gaksch wrote:very very disappointing. you are one of the developers who intentionally lying. and the problem is that people like rolf, who have no technical background belief you. your analogy is absolute wrong. you know, as good as i know, that improving an good engine about 150 elo is much more difficult than running only the last mile in an marathon.
i would use another analogy. in german there is a car race series called DTM. all the big companies like mercedes, audi paticipate with their teams. There also participates an team called "Audi Sport Team Abt Sportsline". this team drives an audi which is tuned by themselves. they are a very little team from bavaria who have not so much money like the teams from the big companies. but they like car racing and they are very good car tuners. and what happens last year? they won the german championship with their tuned audi. by the way their car isn´t called clone, because the other teams know that it is very difficult to tune a car. and they did it better than audi and mercedes.

you are one of the jealous developer who are very frustrated because their engine isn´t getting stronger. and what do you do for the chess community? have you shown your new ideas? you use linux and open office on the one side and insult open source, oh sorry i mean only toga.

i am very sad that a lot of other engine programmer do the same as you. telling lies to the public.
It was actually meant as a general statement rather but you seem to feel adressed personally. Anyway, after rereading my marathon analogy I still think it's perfectly valid and being a runner myself I kind of like it. But as you're more into cars, I can make a car analogy as well.

I don't know that much about the DTM but I know that the teams take a common car and translate that car into a racing machine. So they improve a street car you and me can buy in a way that they can win a race with afterwards. A lot of work I imagine. But it's important to understand that they cannot do that with every car. The car to tune must already have some potential as a racecar otherwise it just pointless. Tuning a Trabbi (or a 2CV) and then winning the DTM series is out of question. If the car is bad from the start they cannot improve it to the point of winning a race. That's what makes them tuners rather than car builders.

So taking the source code of a already strong (and almost bugfree) chess engine with lot of potential left and improving it can be compared to tuning a good sports car. Almost as good as my car analogy.

And the thing about GPL you better don't bring up anymore as I remember very well that some people had to explain you what GPL actually means.

Roman

Re: How many "official" Toga projects there is now

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:41 pm
by Dann Corbit
Thomas Gaksch wrote:Congratulations Ryan,
this redesign was the right step to be sucessfull for the next years. That was really a lot of work for you. but a great decision to do it.
Now in practise Fruit isn´t anymore Fruit 2.1 and in my opinion Fruit is now your own baby. Why didn´t you rename it?


Thomas
Fabian did the rewrite to bitboard.

Re: How many "official" Toga projects there is now

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:52 pm
by Thomas Gaksch
Roman wrote: I don't know that much about the DTM but I know that the teams take a common car and translate that car into a racing machine. So they improve a street car you and me can buy in a way that they can win a race with afterwards. A lot of work I imagine. But it's important to understand that they cannot do that with every car. The car to tune must already have some potential as a racecar otherwise it just pointless. Tuning a Trabbi (or a 2CV) and then winning the DTM series is out of question. If the car is bad from the start they cannot improve it to the point of winning a race. That's what makes them tuners rather than car builders.

So taking the source code of a already strong (and almost bugfree) chess engine with lot of potential left and improving it can be compared to tuning a good sports car. Almost as good as my car analogy.
very good analogy!!! i have never said anything else. With this analogy i am absolutely with you. Tuning a car means also improving the engine and increase the engine power. for example to assemble a new and better turbo....
Roman wrote: And the thing about GPL you better don't bring up anymore as I remember very well that some people had to explain you what GPL actually means.
I know that this sentence would come.
Believe it or not but i am very thankful that Alex Schmidt "explained" it to me.

Thomas

Re: How many "official" Toga projects there is now

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:11 pm
by Ryan Benitez
Dann Corbit wrote:
Thomas Gaksch wrote:Congratulations Ryan,
this redesign was the right step to be sucessfull for the next years. That was really a lot of work for you. but a great decision to do it.
Now in practise Fruit isn´t anymore Fruit 2.1 and in my opinion Fruit is now your own baby. Why didn´t you rename it?


Thomas
Fabian did the rewrite to bitboard.
In Chess64 Fabien did the bitboards, in Fruit I did the bitboards. They have little in common in they way they are used in the 2 programs.

Re: How many "official" Toga projects there is now

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:16 pm
by Ryan Benitez
Roman Hartmann wrote: And the thing about GPL you better don't bring up anymore as I remember very well that some people had to explain you what GPL actually means.

Roman
To be fair most of the computer chess community does not understand the GPL. It is very saddening to me that something with such great intent can be looked down on as something so bad by so many. I don't know of any other community that frowns on the GPL the way the computer chess community does.

Re: How many "official" Toga projects there is now

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:19 pm
by Vinvin
Ryan Benitez wrote:I don't know of any other community that frowns on the GPL the way the computer chess community does.
What do you mean ?

Re: How many "official" Toga projects there is now

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:27 pm
by Ryan Benitez
Guetti wrote:
Thomas Gaksch wrote:Hello Andreas,
as far as i have understood is that chess64 is only developed by Fabien and Fruit only by Ryan anymore. But Ryan knows it best.
Ah, ok. I probably associated Chess64 somehow with 64-bit.

Then:
Chess64 (Fabien) is a rewritten, multithreaded Fruit?
Fruit (Ryan) is a modified Fruit using bitboards and a rewritten eval?
Toga is a modified Fruit with tuned evaluation and SMP?

And the version playing in CCT10 is the version of Ryan? Sorry, I'm a bit lost with all the versions.
Chess64 is a new engine by Fabien. It is not Fruit.
Fruit is now a bitboard engine with smp that has focus in evaluation
Toga I know less about because there are many versions and I don't see what is being done but in the past it has been a well tuned search that Toga has gained from most.

Re: How many "official" Toga projects there is now

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:29 pm
by slobo
Roman Hartmann wrote:Rolf, I try to make it simple as you're not familiar with the technical aspects of chess programming itself.

I'm planning to participate at the Berlin marathon this year. Unfortunately I don't have much time for training, so I think I will take the metro for the first part and run the last mile only. Running the last mile in a marathon is very hard as you can imagine and that's why I only run that last mile. Did I already mention that this last mile is very hard in a marathon?

I mean, let's face it, it's boring to run 40 Kilometers before you can actually start that last and important part of the race. Everybody can run 40 kilometers, but it's the last mile which actually counts. So running the last mile is actually the key part of it.

Roman
Great!
Last mile runner!
:D :D :D