2007 World Computer Rapid Chess Championships: Final Results

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Uri Blass
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Re: 2007 World Computer Rapid Chess Championships: games pgn

Post by Uri Blass » Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:00 pm

Hi Harvey,

I think that it is a general rule in computer chess not to allow changing setting during the game.

Without that rule you have not computer chess but type of advanced chess.

Uri

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hgm
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Re: 2007 World Computer Rapid Chess Championships: games pgn

Post by hgm » Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:08 pm

Harvey Williamson wrote:The Hiarcs own book plays whatever move is next in its list.
Let me stress that I have zero experience in using books (Joker is always responsible for its own moves, exactly to prevent what you are complaining about). But is seems to me that an engine that uses a book should be able to somehow control what kind of opening it will pick. No one forces you to play with the "large release own book", but you make it sound as if (as UCI engine) HIARCS had no choice at all.

It just surprises me that this could be the case in such a top engine. Even without any changes in the software one could have several books available, amongst which a book containing only good opening lines, and a book containing only lines that are useful for if you want to win (avoiding draw lines). Then you could have used the book that was suitable for the occasion. HIARCS has no one to blame but itself that it had to rely on an unsuitable opening book for its first moves. And even then you could have bailed out of that situation by not playing with a book at all...

And it still escapes me why you would put lines in the book that make you end up at -1. Unless it is really HIARCS evaluation that is at fault here, but then it wouldn't really be a bad opening line!

Harvey Williamson

Re: 2007 World Computer Rapid Chess Championships: games pgn

Post by Harvey Williamson » Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:20 pm

hgm wrote:
Harvey Williamson wrote:The Hiarcs own book plays whatever move is next in its list.
Let me stress that I have zero experience in using books (Joker is always responsible for its own moves, exactly to prevent what you are complaining about). But is seems to me that an engine that uses a book should be able to somehow control what kind of opening it will pick. No one forces you to play with the "large release own book", but you make it sound as if (as UCI engine) HIARCS had no choice at all.

It just surprises me that this could be the case in such a top engine. Even without any changes in the software one could have several books available, amongst which a book containing only good opening lines, and a book containing only lines that are useful for if you want to win (avoiding draw lines). Then you could have used the book that was suitable for the occasion. HIARCS has no one to blame but itself that it had to rely on an unsuitable opening book for its first moves. And even then you could have bailed out of that situation by not playing with a book at all...

And it still escapes me why you would put lines in the book that make you end up at -1. Unless it is really HIARCS evaluation that is at fault here, but then it wouldn't really be a bad opening line!
There are various points there.

If we were playing in the CB environment which I am used to this would not be a problem.

I have no idea how to make a book for the Chess Partner interface as yesterday was the 1st time I have used it or operated an engine in a tournament on ICC.

I also know that for the same reason rybka and zappa were unable to use their normal tournament books.

Each interface has its own book format our tournament books are in CB .ctg format and I know of no tool for converting them to another format. As for the line in question it may be in the book because it has scored some victories by a strong GM. However when played yesterday Hiarcs did not like it.

I think to check every move in the opening book with say a minute of computer analysis would take several months - and even then 1 minute is probably not enough.

Small tournament books are the way to go but as I said earlier I do not know how to make 1 for Chess Partner and to be honest personally I do not have the time.

So if someone out there wants to make a Hiarcs book for Chess Partner!! Please feel free!

Best Wishes,

Harvey

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Re: 2007 World Computer Rapid Chess Championships: games pgn

Post by frankp » Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:32 pm

Uri Blass wrote:Hi Harvey,

I think that it is a general rule in computer chess not to allow changing setting during the game.

Without that rule you have not computer chess but type of advanced chess.

Uri
Not the first time that an operator in one of these events got so involved with his charge that he took over and 'cheated' (assuming it was not allowed by the rules), either knowingly or through plain enthusiasm.

Steve B

Re: 2007 World Computer Rapid Chess Championships: games pgn

Post by Steve B » Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:40 pm

frankp wrote:
Uri Blass wrote:Hi Harvey,

I think that it is a general rule in computer chess not to allow changing setting during the game.

Without that rule you have not computer chess but type of advanced chess.

Uri
Not the first time that an operator in one of these events got so involved with his charge that he took over and 'cheated' (assuming it was not allowed by the rules), either knowingly or through plain enthusiasm.
to accuse Harvey of cheating is ridiculous
he posted here honestly to give those here an insight as to what a top level operator did during a match of the very highest level
if he thought he cheated do you think he would post that here?

how many TOP operators even come here to share their experiences during a an intense moment of high level competition?

all this post does is convince Harvey he made a mistake in sharing his thoughts

[edited]

Pffft Regards
Steve

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Re: 2007 World Computer Rapid Chess Championships: games pgn

Post by hgm » Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:44 pm

Harvey Williamson wrote:I think to check every move in the opening book with say a minute of computer analysis would take several months - and even then 1 minute is probably not enough.
Yet this seems a very obvious thing to do when building a book for an engine. And concerning the three months: how long did it take to build HIARCS? How much testing is required to make a new version ready for release?

It seems to me that the HIARCS team has a blind spot here: a World-class engine, but the book is unchecked [edited] or unusable because of the type of interface. Well, you either support an interface on you don't!

Harvey Williamson

Re: 2007 World Computer Rapid Chess Championships: games pgn

Post by Harvey Williamson » Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:48 pm

hgm wrote:
Harvey Williamson wrote:I think to check every move in the opening book with say a minute of computer analysis would take several months - and even then 1 minute is probably not enough.
Yet this seems a very obvious thing to do when building a book for an engine. And concerning the three months: how long did it take to build HIARCS? How much testing is required to make a new version ready for release?

It seems to me that the HIARCS team has a blind spot here: a World-class engine, but the book is unchecked or unusable because of the type of interface. Well, you either support an interface on you don't!
[deleted]

I went away recently and left 5 CPUs analysing the book after 2 weeks away only a fraction was done.

You show me ANY released openings book which does not have the odd bad line in when in tournament mode?!

Personally I have no real time for any extra book testing. I have 7 machines here running tests I pay my own electricity bill and receive no payment for my work. [edited]

Did we score 2/14 or 12/14 sounds like we had a disasterous tournament reading your post.

Regards,

Harvey
Last edited by Harvey Williamson on Mon Jul 23, 2007 3:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: 2007 World Computer Rapid Chess Championships: games pgn

Post by hgm » Mon Jul 23, 2007 3:04 pm

Harvey Williamson wrote:I went away recently and left 5 CPUs analysing the book after 2 weeks away only a fraction was done.

You show me ANY released openings book which does not have the odd bad line in when in tournament mode!
Don't take this personal, I am just trying to offer helpful criticism. :shock:

It was you who was unhappy with the opening line, remember? From your description of the HIARCS book situation I get the impression that any high ranking on that list is despite the book rather than because of it. Perhaps with a checked book (not to confuse with a cheque book, although that might help too. :wink: ) you would have been first on that rating list. As you might have been first in this tournament...

That others don't check their books either (or if they do, don't release them), is not my problem. I don't want to be first (yet). But if you want to be first, you obviously have to go the extra mile...

Harvey Williamson

Re: 2007 World Computer Rapid Chess Championships: games pgn

Post by Harvey Williamson » Mon Jul 23, 2007 3:14 pm

hgm wrote:
Harvey Williamson wrote:Any time you want to test against our unchecked rubbish which btw is used by SSDF and has us in 2nd place on their list you are welcome.

I went away recently and left 5 CPUs analysing the book after 2 weeks away only a fraction was done.

You show me ANY released openings book which does not have the odd bad line in when in tournament mode!
Don't take this personal, I am just trying to offer helpful criticism. :shock:

It was you who was unhappy with the opening line, remember? From your description of the HIARCS book situation I get the impression that any high ranking on that list is despite the book rather than because of it. Perhaps with a checked book (not to confuse with a cheque book, although that might help too. :wink: ) you would have been first on that rating list. As you might have been first in this tournament...

That others don't check their books either (or if they do, don't release them), is not my problem. I don't want to be first (yet). But if you want to be first, you obviously have to go the extra mile...
Yes I was unhappy with this 1 line. [edited] The line must have been played by a strong GM or it would not be in the book.

Harvey Williamson

Re: 2007 World Computer Rapid Chess Championships: games pgn

Post by Harvey Williamson » Mon Jul 23, 2007 3:33 pm

[edited]

Why dont you try to build a book you will see how tricky it is. You make a new book and it will win for a week or two but then those clever book cookers on Playchess will refute your new lines. Give it a try. When you have a book and a team of people you cant afford to pay to keep it up to date we are ready to be challenged.

Then try and make the same book for every chess interface out there - it is a full time job!

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