hgm wrote:Ai ai,... Yet another low-level programmer of a mediocre engine that doesn't show proper respect for the behavior of a top engine, and doesn't have the good manners too keep silent unless spoken to...
Now he will get toasted for sure!
Actually, in this case, simply a non-participant that doesn't understand the importance of the rules we have in place, nor why they are in place. I don't care how inexperienced the person is, that's not the issue.
Here the issue is even more basic, that of following very simple and explicit rules.
hgm wrote:Ai ai,... Yet another low-level programmer of a mediocre engine that doesn't show proper respect for the behavior of a top engine, and doesn't have the good manners too keep silent unless spoken to...
Now he will get toasted for sure!
Actually, in this case, simply a non-participant that doesn't understand the importance of the rules we have in place, nor why they are in place. I don't care how inexperienced the person is, that's not the issue.
Here the issue is even more basic, that of following very simple and explicit rules.
Like all participants must kibitze their moves NOT whisper - i guess you think you are above the rules as you have been at it for so long?
hgm wrote:Ai ai,... Yet another low-level programmer of a mediocre engine that doesn't show proper respect for the behavior of a top engine, and doesn't have the good manners too keep silent unless spoken to...
Now he will get toasted for sure!
toasted maybe not but it does seem like Bob also broke the rules:
(a) what exactly is the difference between kibitz and whisper? Minimal. And I later changed it when I caught the mistake. I have a standard "CCT" tournament script I run and it was left from the last CCT event.
(b) since I did not participate in the last WCCC, I had no basis to protest anything. The participants attending always have a meeting prior to round one where these things are discussed. If it was discussed there and everyone agreed, why would I care since I was not involved? I _did_ protest at the Jakarta event although it did no good. But then the ICCA/ICGA has not always exactly followed the letter of the rules either...
But one thing is for certain, I don't violate the rules as written. Do you know why we have the whisper/kibitz rule? Didn't think so. It is to prevent exactly what you did from happening. It is easier to catch operator intervention with the analysis made public. Had I been watching and noticed the draw score change, I would have commented immediately.
hgm wrote:Ai ai,... Yet another low-level programmer of a mediocre engine that doesn't show proper respect for the behavior of a top engine, and doesn't have the good manners too keep silent unless spoken to...
Now he will get toasted for sure!
toasted maybe not but it does seem like Bob also broke the rules:
(a) what exactly is the difference between kibitz and whisper? Minimal. And I later changed it when I caught the mistake. I have a standard "CCT" tournament script I run and it was left from the last CCT event.
(b) since I did not participate in the last WCCC, I had no basis to protest anything. The participants attending always have a meeting prior to round one where these things are discussed. If it was discussed there and everyone agreed, why would I care since I was not involved? I _did_ protest at the Jakarta event although it did no good. But then the ICCA/ICGA has not always exactly followed the letter of the rules either...
But one thing is for certain, I don't violate the rules as written. Do you know why we have the whisper/kibitz rule? Didn't think so. It is to prevent exactly what you did from happening. It is easier to catch operator intervention with the analysis made public. Had I been watching and noticed the draw score change, I would have commented immediately.
ok so its 1 rule for you and another for the rest. I played you on day 2 when i saw no kibitzing so that was near the end of the tournament but have it your way your rule violation is so minor it should be totally ignored.
A lot of personal attacks have been edited out or deleted.
Some posts which were therefore no longer relevant have also gone or been edited.
I've tried to keep the substance of the debate intact as far as possible. My apologies if you feel any good points you made are gone.
Rolf wrote:
A minor oversight in the debate was to mention that Harvey couldnt be accused of cheating because how could he if he now reported here exactly what he had done during the game. Here it is obviously confused what someone thought about his own behavior and what that meant from an objective perspective. It doesnt mean the same IMO.
Exactly, except I'd say it's a major oversight.
If Harvey had knowingly cheated, he wouldn't be dumb enough to openly post about it.
Food for thought: You grow up on a deserted island, and then move to some populated country where you promptly kill someone when he bumps into you. Did you commit a murder, even though you didn't "know" it was against the law?
Of course you did.
An operator has to be expected to know the rules prior to participation. Only a fool would try to race in a NASCAR event without knowing all the rules they have in place. I've organized many computer chess events. We've always used the same rules, and we expect that the operators are knowledgeable about the rules being used. That's one of the responsibilities of the operator, in fact. To know what is expected of him if he participates.
How this was not cheating (intentional or unintentional doesn't matter with respect to whether it was wrong or not) is simply beyond me. Rules are rules, and they exist for a reason. And can not be ignored when it is advantageous to do so.
Unless they are ignored by you as you say in an earlier post whispering is better and something you have often done. So one rule for you and another for the rest:
1. I think I originally had it set to whisper rather than kibits. In the past we have done it this way as we had a couple of cases of a program getting confused by the kibitzes in past events. Whispering lets all observers see the output, it just doesn't show up on the opponent's screen. Since most of us long-time ICC'ers have an account for our programs, and an account for us so we can observe, that works perfectly.
Graham Banks wrote:A lot of personal attacks have been edited out or deleted.
Some posts which were therefore no longer relevant have also gone or been edited.
I've tried to keep the substance of the debate intact as far as possible. My apologies if you feel any good points you made are gone.
Regards, Graham.
You have a tough job as moderator and I support your actions. I note however that the context of some of what remains has been lost by deleting the worst posts/parts of post. Inevitable I suppose but irritating.
Graham Banks wrote:A lot of personal attacks have been edited out or deleted.
Some posts which were therefore no longer relevant have also gone or been edited.
I've tried to keep the substance of the debate intact as far as possible. My apologies if you feel any good points you made are gone.
Regards, Graham.
I made no personal attacks, but you deleted my posts! That's NOT
moderation, that's CENSORSHIP!
Learn the difference between criticism and a personal remarks!
Graham Banks wrote:A lot of personal attacks have been edited out or deleted.
Some posts which were therefore no longer relevant have also gone or been edited.
I've tried to keep the substance of the debate intact as far as possible. My apologies if you feel any good points you made are gone.
Regards, Graham.
You have a tough job as moderator and I support your actions. I note however that the context of some of what remains has been lost by deleting the worst posts/parts of post. Inevitable I suppose but irritating.
Yes - this is the downside of viewing in threaded mode as opposed to flat mode.
Graham Banks wrote:A lot of personal attacks have been edited out or deleted.
Some posts which were therefore no longer relevant have also gone or been edited.
I've tried to keep the substance of the debate intact as far as possible. My apologies if you feel any good points you made are gone.
Regards, Graham.
I made no personal attacks, but you deleted my posts! That's NOT
moderation, that's CENSORSHIP!
Learn the difference between criticism and a personal remarks!
Don't push it Terry. Your criticism was regarded as a personal attack and deleted.
