To put everything into place with Strelka

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Sergei Markoff

Re: To put everything into place with Strelka

Post by Sergei Markoff » Thu May 10, 2007 12:39 pm

Uri Blass wrote:
Sergei Markoff wrote:
Daniel Mehrmann wrote:Hmmmm, i can't believe that. At least, just a example, you need a analyze function to verify your changes in evaluation and search.

It's not possible to write a such strong engine without these features...
I made "analyze" function really late. I'm not using it.
I am not sure what you both mean by analyze function.
If we are talking about analyzing positions then sterlka support fen and it is possible to use sterlka to analyze positions.

If you talk about supporting analyze under winboard then I did not check if sterlka supports it but even if it does not support it then you can still use it to analyze chess positions by telling it to play a game from the relevant position.

If you talk about something else then I do not know what do you mean.
I mean exactly "analyze" WB function.
Strelka has a code to work with FEN and can process EPD testsuites.

Uri Blass
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Re: To put everything into place with Strelka

Post by Uri Blass » Thu May 10, 2007 12:54 pm

I agree that supporting the analyze WB function is not important for playing strength.

movei supports it for a long time but it was not done in order to help me to make it better.

Uri

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Rolf
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Re: To put everything into place with Strelka

Post by Rolf » Thu May 10, 2007 12:54 pm

Sergei Markoff wrote:The talk is over.
I dont know much if anything of the technical details but I read some exchanges here and two or three things offended my ethical basics.

1. I dont know Dann Corbit but it's beyond me why a single person should be judged as the only imaginable expert who must get a source code so that he then could give a decisive verdict.

2. I personally find the tone in the speech of a certain attacker way out of acceptable proportions if this here isnt a courtroom yet. From where Christopher Conkie got the authorization to treat Sergei Markov in such an unfriendly and aggressive tone?

3. If for some reasons the end of the process would be that Strelka is a stand-alone original creation, what could apologies then be worth for? Wouldnt it be better to treat everybody with all due respect instead? Shouldnt the decent experts here care for the fairness of the acting or do they think that they are not involved if a group of "predators" [?Engl?] are also enjoying a bloody lust? Justice IMO is something completely else.
-Popper and Lakatos are good but I'm stuck on Leibowitz

Tony Thomas

Re: To put everything into place with Strelka

Post by Tony Thomas » Thu May 10, 2007 1:05 pm

1. I dont know Dann Corbit but it's beyond me why a single person should be judged as the only imaginable expert who must get a source code so that he then could give a decisive verdict.
Dan has been around for a long time, and is accepted as one of the best compiling experts aside from JA and BH. As opposed to Bryan, Dan isnt working on any engine as of now.
2. I personally find the tone in the speech of a certain attacker way out of acceptable proportions if this here isnt a courtroom yet. From where Christopher Conkie got the authorization to treat Sergei Markov in such an unfriendly and aggressive tone?

I dont know where he got the authority from, but I didnt like the way he talked to Sergei. Then again weather or not he was being rude or just being Chris, we have no way of figuring that out as we cant figure out his exact emotion at the time of post from just reading. It is possible that Chris was joking around with the words.

Uri Blass
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Re: To put everything into place with Strelka

Post by Uri Blass » Thu May 10, 2007 1:09 pm

Christopher Conkie wrote:
Sergei Markoff wrote:The talk is over.
That's up to you. Until then Strelka is over too.

A photo of someone pointing at a laptop does not cut it.

If you know that Strelka is an original work (I hope so too) then there are some questions that need answered by some supporting evidence.

You can see many programmers here wonder about what is known due to others efforts and those questions have not been answered at all.

Regards

Christopher
I disagree.
I am sure that sergei convinced part of the posters that strelka is not a clone.

He also changed my opinion about it(I am not claiming to know that it is not a clone but the probability that I give to the claim that it is a clone was reduced to less than 50%)

People are free to decide if to test it in games.

Uri

Christopher Conkie
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Re: To put everything into place with Strelka

Post by Christopher Conkie » Thu May 10, 2007 1:18 pm

Uri Blass wrote:
Christopher Conkie wrote:
Sergei Markoff wrote:The talk is over.
That's up to you. Until then Strelka is over too.

A photo of someone pointing at a laptop does not cut it.

If you know that Strelka is an original work (I hope so too) then there are some questions that need answered by some supporting evidence.

You can see many programmers here wonder about what is known due to others efforts and those questions have not been answered at all.

Regards

Christopher
I disagree.
I am sure that sergei convinced part of the posters that strelka is not a clone.

He also changed my opinion about it(I am not claiming to know that it is not a clone but the probability that I give to the claim that it is a clone was reduced to less than 50%)

People are free to decide if to test it in games.

Uri
I never said it was or was not a clone. I know what I think but that is irrelevant.

There is too much crap and hearsay about. I believe in facts and I know that there are many like you who wonder about Strelka in many different ways.

Now is the opportuinity to address those fears.

I believe that needs to happen before anything else.

Regards

Christopher

Volker Pittlik
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Re: To put everything into place with Strelka

Post by Volker Pittlik » Thu May 10, 2007 1:20 pm

Christopher Conkie wrote:... what Dann would need.

That decision would be final were it to transpire.
...
I don't care much about Dann's, Sergei's or whose opinion ever in this case.
You have shown that both programs show an identical characteristical
behavior under uncovering conditions. (They have at least one identical bug.)
That is not a matter of opinion. It is a matter of fact.

In the past such program characteristics always have been -if not as a prove-
considered as a very strong indication that both programs are identical in
essential parts.

So if nobody can provide a conclusive explanation how something like that can happen
Strelka looks suspicious for me. That we get now one explanation after the other
doesn't make it really better IMO. Some words from the author of Strelka may help.

My 2 cents

Volker

Sergei Markoff

Re: To put everything into place with Strelka

Post by Sergei Markoff » Thu May 10, 2007 1:26 pm

Volker Pittlik wrote:(They have at least one identical bug.)
There are no identical bugs. There are something similar in behavior in incorrect position (with two kings). I think it's possible to find other bitboard engines with similar behavior. Probably it caused by the specific of board representation and move stuff. If you're interested, it's easy to check other bitboarders in position with two kings.

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Daniel Mehrmann
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Re: To put everything into place with Strelka

Post by Daniel Mehrmann » Thu May 10, 2007 1:45 pm

Uri Blass wrote:I agree that supporting the analyze WB function is not important for playing strength.

movei supports it for a long time but it was not done in order to help me to make it better.

Uri
Ok, please tell me about your practise work in this cases.

If you analyzing a game played by Movei and you're walking through new variants to look on what happend there , maybe changing stuff in search, doing the same again and again and again. You know what i mean how this process works ;)

How do you do that ?

Best,
Daniel

Tony Thomas

Re: To put everything into place with Strelka

Post by Tony Thomas » Thu May 10, 2007 1:52 pm

Daniel Mehrmann wrote:
Uri Blass wrote:I agree that supporting the analyze WB function is not important for playing strength.

movei supports it for a long time but it was not done in order to help me to make it better.

Uri
Ok, please tell me about your practise work in this cases.

If you analyzing a game played by Movei and you're walking through new variants to look on what happend there , maybe changing stuff in search, doing the same again and again and again. You know what i mean how this process works ;)

How do you do that ?

Best,
Daniel
May be he tests his changes by running matches.

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