May need a human eye for this one

JVMerlino · Post by **JVMerlino** » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:09 pm

In the last round of Sergio's Swiss Tournament V, Group C, it was King of Kings v Myrddin, and a win for either would mean promotion.

This position was reached, and both engines evaluated it solidly for White (KoK said +4.43 and Myrddin said +3.19 -- Myrddin has always been notoriously and badly conservative about passer evaluation). Every other engine I've tried gives it between +4 and +5 for White after about a minute think. Yet, the game ended in a draw (almost 200 full moves later).

But I can't find any move where KoK went horribly wrong. It may have been the fast TC (40 moves in 4 minutes), but I also suspect that this is a draw with best play and engines can't see it.

Any thoughts from knowledgeable humans would be welcome. I'd like to think that Myrddin defended well, but....

[D]8/4r1k1/2P2p2/4b2p/4Q3/6PK/7P/8 w - - 0 57

And here's the full game if anybody cares:

[pgn]
[Event "Swiss Tournament Ed.V.Group C"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2018.04.13"]
[Round "12.36"]
[White "King of Kings 2.56"]
[Black "Myrddin 0.87 64-bit"]
[TimeControl "0/120"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "D46"]

1.Nf3 d5 2.e3 c6 3.c4 e6 4.d4 Nf6 5.Nc3 Nbd7 6.Qc2 Bd6 7.Bd3 O-O 8.O-O
dxc4 {-0.52/13 3} 9.Bxc4 {0.00/10 5} 9...b5 {-0.37/13 3} 10.Bd3 {
+0.22/10 5} 10...Bb7 {-0.36/13 3} 11.Bd2 {+0.19/10 5} 11...Rc8 {-0.39/12
5} 12.Ng5 {+0.36/10 5} 12...h6 {-0.33/12 3} 13.Nge4 {+0.34/11 5}
13...Bc7 {-0.31/13 3} 14.Nxf6+ {+0.44/9 5} 14...Nxf6 {-0.31/14 3} 15.f4
{+0.37/10 5} 15...Bd6 {-0.02/11 3} 16.Rad1 {+0.34/10 5} 16...Qb6 {
+0.09/13 5} 17.Be1 {+0.23/9 5} 17...c5 {+0.81/13 3} 18.Nxb5 {+0.31/11 5}
18...cxd4 {+0.61/14 3} 19.Qe2 {+0.21/11 5} 19...Nd5 {+0.50/14 3} 20.Nxd4
{+0.21/10 5} 20...Nxf4 {+0.56/14 3} 21.exf4 {+0.23/11 5} 21...Qxd4+ {
+0.32/13 3} 22.Kh1 {+0.22/11 2} 22...Qa4 {+0.29/13 3} 23.Bc3 {+0.24/10 2
} 23...Qxa2 {+0.22/12 3} 24.Bb1 {+0.37/10 2} 24...Qa6 {+0.26/14 3}
25.Qg4 {+0.29/9 2} 25...Rxc3 {+0.10/13 3} 26.bxc3 {+0.49/10 2} 26...Qc6
{+0.08/12 3} 27.f5 {+0.52/9 2} 27...exf5 {-0.09/13 3} 28.Bxf5 {+0.53/9 2
} 28...Qc7 {+0.04/12 3} 29.Rd4 {+0.61/8 2} 29...Bc6 {+0.18/11 3} 30.Qh5
{+0.64/9 2} 30...Be5 {+0.38/12 4} 31.Rg4 {+0.64/10 2} 31...Qd6 {-0.11/12
3} 32.c4 {+0.90/9 2} 32...Rd8 {-0.36/12 4} 33.Be4 {+0.95/9 2} 33...Qf6 {
-0.30/13 3} 34.Rxg7+ {+0.84/11 2} 34...Qxg7 {-0.55/15 3} 35.Bxc6 {
+0.73/11 2} 35...f6 {-0.50/13 3} 36.Bd5+ {+0.94/9 2} 36...Kh8 {-0.51/16
3} 37.Qh3 {+0.89/10 2} 37...Qg5 {-0.51/15 5} 38.g3 {+0.83/10 2} 38...Qe3
{-0.35/12 2} 39.Qe6 {+0.94/10 2} 39...Qd4 {-0.51/12 2} 40.Kg2 {+0.95/9 2
} 40...a5 {-0.17/12 1} 41.Kh3 {+1.18/11 5} 41...Rf8 {-0.17/14 3} 42.Re1
{+1.34/11 5} 42...Qa7 {-0.34/13 3} 43.Re4 {+1.14/11 5} 43...a4 {-0.19/13
3} 44.Rg4 {+2.15/12 5} 44...Qh7 {-0.65/15 3} 45.Be4 {+1.98/12 4}
45...Qf7 {-1.89/15 4} 46.Qf5 {+2.46/12 5} 46...Re8 {-2.03/15 3} 47.Bd5 {
+2.75/11 3} 47...Qf8 {-1.79/15 2} 48.Rg6 {+3.36/11 3} 48...Bb2 {-2.07/14
3} 49.Qh5 {+3.32/12 3} 49...Re7 {-2.68/16 3} 50.c5 {+3.45/11 3} 50...Kh7
{-2.96/16 7} 51.Rg8 {+4.25/12 3} 51...Qxg8 {-3.01/17 2} 52.Bxg8+ {
+4.20/12 2} 52...Kxg8 {-3.02/17 2} 53.Qg4+ {+4.20/12 2} 53...Kh7 {
-3.02/17 4} 54.Qxa4 {+4.20/12 2} 54...Be5 {-3.21/16 3} 55.Qe4+ {+4.43/11
2} 55...Kg7 {-3.25/16 2} 56.c6 {+4.66/12 2} 56...h5 {-3.19/16 2} 57.Qc2
{+4.43/12 2} 57...Rc7 {-3.19/18 2} 58.Kh4 {+4.44/13 2} 58...Kh6 {
-3.19/19 2} 59.Qe4 {+4.46/12 2} 59...Rg7 {-3.19/18 2} 60.Qe3+ {+4.43/11
2} 60...Kg6 {-3.19/19 2} 61.Qe2 {+4.43/11 2} 61...Rh7 {-3.19/16 2}
62.Qc2+ {+4.44/12 2} 62...Kh6 {-3.19/17 2} 63.Qf5 {+4.46/13 2} 63...Kg7
{-3.19/18 2} 64.Qc8 {+4.44/13 2} 64...Kg6 {-3.19/18 2} 65.Qd8 {+4.44/12
2} 65...Kh6 {-3.19/19 2} 66.Qf8+ {+4.39/11 2} 66...Kg6 {-3.19/19 20}
67.Qg8+ {+4.42/11 2} 67...Rg7 {-3.19/19 1} 68.Qc4 {+4.39/12 2} 68...Rh7
{-3.19/18 1} 69.Qd3+ {+4.42/11 2} 69...Kh6 {-3.19/18 1} 70.Qd1 {+4.40/10
2} 70...Kg6 {-3.19/18 1} 71.Qb3 {+4.43/11 2} 71...Kh6 {-3.19/18 1}
72.Qe3+ {+4.37/12 3} 72...Kg6 {-3.19/20 1} 73.Qe4+ {+4.33/11 2} 73...Kh6
{-3.19/20 1} 74.Qd5 {+4.37/12 2} 74...Kg6 {-3.19/20 1} 75.Qf3 {+4.31/12
2} 75...Kh6 {-3.19/19 1} 76.Qf2 {+4.32/12 2} 76...Kg6 {-3.19/20 1}
77.Qa2 {+4.32/11 2} 77...Kh6 {-3.19/19 1} 78.Qg2 {+4.39/12 2} 78...Kg6 {
-3.19/19 1} 79.Qh1 {+4.31/12 2} 79...Kh6 {-3.19/17 1} 80.Qc1+ {+4.32/11
2} 80...Kg6 {-3.19/20 0} 81.Qd2 {+4.37/12 3} 81...Rg7 {-3.19/19 3}
82.Qc2+ {+4.31/11 2} 82...Kh6 {-3.19/20 3} 83.Qc1+ {+4.32/11 2} 83...Kg6
{-3.19/21 3} 84.Qf1 {+4.31/12 2} 84...Kh6 {-3.19/18 3} 85.Qa6 {+4.24/12
2} 85...Kg6 {-3.19/20 3} 86.Qb5 {+4.28/12 2} 86...Kh6 {-3.19/20 3}
87.Qc5 {+4.28/11 3} 87...Kg6 {-3.19/20 3} 88.Qb4 {+4.31/12 2} 88...Kh6 {
-3.19/18 3} 89.Qf8 {+4.32/9 2} 89...Kg6 {-3.19/19 3} 90.Qa8 {+4.31/12 2}
90...Rc7 {-3.19/17 3} 91.Qd8 {+4.31/12 2} 91...Kf5 {-3.19/18 3} 92.Qd5 {
+4.31/11 2} 92...Kg6 {-3.19/19 3} 93.Qd3+ {+4.31/11 2} 93...Kh6 {
-3.19/19 3} 94.Qe3+ {+4.31/12 2} 94...Kg6 {-3.19/20 3} 95.Qb6 {+4.32/12
2} 95...Re7 {-3.19/19 3} 96.Qb1+ {+4.31/11 2} 96...Kh6 {-3.19/20 3}
97.Qc1+ {+4.29/11 2} 97...Kg6 {-3.19/21 3} 98.Qc2+ {+4.28/12 2} 98...Kh6
{-3.19/20 3} 99.Qd2+ {+4.29/12 2} 99...Kg6 {-3.19/21 3} 100.Qd8 {
+4.28/11 8} 100...Rh7 {-3.19/19 3} 101.Qa5 {+4.26/11 2} 101...Rc7 {
-3.19/20 3} 102.Qb4 {+4.25/11 2} 102...Kh6 {-3.19/18 3} 103.Qb6 {
+4.00/11 2} 103...Rg7 {-1.94/17 3} 104.c7 {0.00/12 14} 104...Rxc7 {
-1.53/18 3} 105.Qe3+ {+2.30/12 2} 105...Kg6 {-1.53/19 3} 106.Qe4+ {
+2.30/13 2} 106...Kh6 {-1.53/20 3} 107.Qe2 {+2.30/13 2} 107...Rh7 {
-1.53/19 3} 108.Qe3+ {+2.30/12 2} 108...Kg7 {-1.49/20 3} 109.Qa7+ {
+2.27/13 2} 109...Kh6 {-1.49/20 3} 110.Qa8 {+2.27/12 2} 110...Kg7 {
-1.49/20 3} 111.Qb7+ {+2.27/12 2} 111...Kh6 {-1.49/20 3} 112.Qc8 {
+2.30/12 2} 112...Rc7 {-1.49/19 3} 113.Qh8+ {+2.27/13 2} 113...Rh7 {
-1.49/21 3} 114.Qe8 {+2.26/14 2} 114...Kg7 {-1.49/21 3} 115.Qd7+ {
+2.27/13 2} 115...Kg6 {-1.49/21 3} 116.Qd8 {+2.27/13 2} 116...Kh6 {
-1.49/20 3} 117.Qd3 {+2.26/13 2} 117...Rg7 {-1.14/19 3} 118.Qe3+ {
+2.27/10 2} 118...Rg5 {-1.14/20 3} 119.Kh3 {+2.27/12 2} 119...Kg7 {
-1.12/19 3} 120.Qf3 {+2.23/12 2} 120...Kh6 {-1.12/18 1} 121.Qa8 {
+2.12/12 2} 121...Rg4 {-1.12/19 3} 122.Qh8+ {+2.09/12 2} 122...Kg6 {
-1.12/21 3} 123.Qg8+ {+2.06/13 2} 123...Kh6 {-1.12/21 3} 124.Qf8+ {
+2.05/12 2} 124...Kg6 {-1.12/20 3} 125.Qe8+ {+2.04/13 2} 125...Kh6 {
-1.12/21 3} 126.Qe6 {+2.05/13 2} 126...Re4 {-1.12/20 3} 127.Qd5 {
+2.04/14 2} 127...Rd4 {-1.12/20 3} 128.Qb3 {+2.02/13 2} 128...Rd8 {
-1.12/18 3} 129.Qe3+ {+2.02/12 3} 129...Kg6 {-1.12/18 3} 130.Qc5 {
+2.02/12 2} 130...Rd2 {-1.12/17 3} 131.Qc4 {+2.04/12 2} 131...Kg7 {
-1.12/17 3} 132.Qe4 {+2.02/13 2} 132...Rd8 {-1.12/18 3} 133.Qe2 {
+2.02/13 2} 133...Kg6 {-1.12/18 3} 134.Qe1 {+2.01/12 2} 134...Rd4 {
-1.12/18 3} 135.Qb1+ {+1.82/12 2} 135...f5 {-0.95/17 3} 136.Qb5 {
+1.82/13 2} 136...Bf6 {-0.95/18 3} 137.Qe8+ {+1.54/12 2} 137...Kh6 {
-0.95/18 3} 138.Qe6 {+1.54/13 2} 138...Kg6 {-0.94/20 3} 139.Qg8+ {
+1.49/13 2} 139...Kh6 {-0.94/19 3} 140.Qf7 {+1.48/13 2} 140...Kg5 {
-0.94/17 3} 141.Qh7 {+1.47/12 2} 141...Rd8 {-0.79/17 3} 142.Qc7 {
+1.47/13 2} 142...Rd4 {-0.79/16 3} 143.Kg2 {+1.47/12 2} 143...h4 {
-0.79/15 3} 144.Qc1+ {+1.47/11 2} 144...Kg6 {-0.77/16 3} 145.gxh4 {
+1.47/12 2} 145...Rxh4 {-0.77/16 3} 146.Qc8 {+1.47/12 2} 146...Rg4+ {
-0.77/14 3} 147.Kf3 {+1.47/12 2} 147...Re4 {-0.77/15 3} 148.Qg8+ {
+1.47/12 2} 148...Kh6 {-0.78/17 3} 149.h3 {+1.46/12 2} 149...Bd4 {
-0.78/16 3} 150.Qf8+ {+1.46/12 2} 150...Kg6 {-0.77/17 3} 151.Qd6+ {
+1.46/12 2} 151...Kg5 {-0.77/17 3} 152.Qd8+ {+1.43/12 2} 152...Kh5 {
-0.77/17 3} 153.Kg3 {+1.42/11 2} 153...Be5+ {-0.77/16 3} 154.Kf2 {
+1.42/13 2} 154...Bd4+ {-0.77/16 3} 155.Kf3 {+1.47/13 2} 155...Bg7 {
-0.77/16 3} 156.Qd5 {+1.43/10 4} 156...Kg5 {-0.77/17 3} 157.Qd2+ {
+1.43/13 2} 157...Kh5 {-0.77/18 3} 158.Qd7 {+1.43/14 2} 158...Kg6 {
-0.77/17 3} 159.Qd6+ {+1.43/13 2} 159...Kg5 {-0.77/18 3} 160.Qg3+ {
+1.41/12 2} 160...Kh6 {-0.77/19 1} 161.Qc7 {+1.42/13 2} 161...Kg6 {
-0.77/17 3} 162.Kg2 {+1.42/12 2} 162...Bf6 {-0.77/16 3} 163.Qd6 {
+1.42/11 2} 163...Kg5 {-0.77/16 3} 164.Qd3 {+1.42/12 2} 164...Bd4 {
-0.77/16 3} 165.Qg3+ {+1.42/12 2} 165...Kh6 {-0.77/17 3} 166.Qb8 {
+1.41/11 2} 166...Re2+ {-0.77/16 3} 167.Kf1 {+1.41/12 2} 167...Re4 {
-0.77/17 3} 168.Qd8 {+1.41/13 2} 168...Kh5 {-0.77/16 3} 169.Kg2 {
+1.42/12 2} 169...Re2+ {-0.77/17 3} 170.Kg3 {+1.52/11 2} 170...Re4 {
-0.77/16 3} 171.h4 {+1.49/12 2} 171...Be5+ {0.00/15 3} 172.Kh3 {+0.69/13
9} 172...Re3+ {0.00/17 3} 173.Kg2 Bf4 {0.00/18 3} 174.Qf6 {+0.67/12 2}
174...Kg4 {0.00/19 3} 175.Qd4 {+0.66/13 2} 175...Re2+ {0.00/17 3}
176.Kf1 {+0.66/12 2} 176...Rh2 {0.00/17 3} 177.h5 {+0.60/12 2}
177...Rxh5 {0.00/17 3} 178.Qg7+ {+0.67/12 2} 178...Rg5 {0.00/15 3}
179.Qd7 {+0.65/13 2} 179...Rg6 {+0.29/15 3} 180.Qd1+ {+0.67/11 2}
180...Kg5 {+0.20/15 3} 181.Qd8+ {+0.70/12 2} 181...Rf6 {0.00/18 3}
182.Kf2 {+0.78/13 2} 182...Bd6 {+0.26/13 3} 183.Kf3 {+0.79/12 2}
183...Bf8 {+0.09/14 3} 184.Qd2+ {+0.78/12 2} 184...Kh5 {0.00/17 3}
185.Qh2+ {+0.79/12 2} 185...Kg6 {0.00/18 3} 186.Qg3+ {+0.79/13 2}
186...Kh7 {0.00/18 3} 187.Qg5 {+0.78/11 2} 187...Be7 {0.00/16 3} 188.Qd2
{+0.79/13 2} 188...Kg7 {0.00/16 3} 189.Qd7 {+0.79/12 2} 189...Rf7 {
0.00/18 3} 190.Qc7 {+0.73/12 4} 190...Bg5 {0.00/16 3} 191.Qc3+ {+0.73/12
2} 191...Kh7 {0.00/18 3} 192.Kf2 {+0.71/13 2} 192...Re7 {+0.35/14 3}
193.Qc4 {+0.65/12 2} 193...Be3+ {+0.39/14 3} 194.Kf3 {+0.65/12 2}
194...f4 {+0.38/15 3} 195.Qd3+ {+0.75/12 2} 195...Kg8 {+0.26/15 2}
196.Qd5+ {+0.73/13 2} 196...Kf8 {+0.28/16 5} 197.Qc4 {+0.73/13 2}
197...Rd7 {+0.28/13 2} 198.Qc3 {+0.72/12 2} 198...Rd2 {+0.47/13 2}
199.Qf6+ {+0.71/11 2} 199...Ke8 {+0.45/15 2} 200.Qe6+ {+0.71/11 2}
200...Kd8 {+0.45/15 1} 201.Qg8+ {+0.69/12 2} 201...Ke7 {+0.46/14 3}
202.Qg7+ {+0.69/11 2} 202...Ke6 {+0.45/15 3} 203.Qc7 {+0.69/12 2}
203...Kd5 {+0.45/12 3} 204.Qd7+ {+0.69/11 2} 204...Kc5 {+0.45/14 3}
205.Qf5+ {+0.68/11 2} 205...Kb4 {+0.48/15 3} 206.Qe4+ {+0.67/12 2}
206...Kb3 {+0.47/14 3} 207.Qb7+ {+0.66/12 2} 207...Kc2 {+0.47/15 3}
208.Qc6+ {+0.67/12 2} 208...Kb2 {+0.46/16 3} 209.Qb5+ {+0.66/12 2}
209...Ka2 {+0.46/16 3} 210.Qa4+ {+0.66/13 2} 210...Kb1 {+0.44/17 3}
211.Qb3+ {+0.66/13 2} 211...Kc1 {+0.44/17 3} 212.Qc4+ {+0.66/13 2}
212...Rc2 {+0.44/17 3} 213.Qd5 {+0.66/11 2} 213...Rf2+ {+0.45/15 3}
214.Ke4 {+0.47/11 2} 214...Rh2 {+0.44/14 3} 215.Qd3 {+0.46/12 2}
215...Kb2 {+0.44/15 3} 216.Qc4 {+0.51/12 2} 216...Rd2 {+0.44/14 3}
217.Qc8 {+0.47/12 2} 217...Rd4+ {+0.45/15 3} 218.Kf3 {+0.48/12 2}
218...Rb4 {+0.45/14 3} 219.Qh8+ {+0.71/10 2} 219...Kb3 {+0.45/16 3}
220.Qe5 {+0.76/11 2} 220...Kc4 {+0.43/15 3} 221.Qe4+ {+0.74/11 2}
221...Kc3 {+0.43/17 3} 222.Qc6+ {+0.74/12 2} 222...Kb3 {+0.43/16 3}
223.Qc7 {+0.66/13 2} 223...Rb5 {+0.44/15 3} 224.Qd6 {+0.66/11 2}
224...Kc3 {+0.43/15 3} 225.Qc6+ {+0.66/12 2} 225...Kb4 {+0.43/16 3}
226.Qf6 {+0.66/12 2} 226...Rd5 {+0.42/14 3} 227.Qb2+ {+0.73/11 2}
227...Kc5 {+0.43/14 3} 228.Qc3+ {+0.67/11 2} 228...Kb5 {+0.42/16 3}
229.Qb3+ {+0.64/11 2} 229...Kc6 {+0.42/15 3} 230.Qc4+ {+0.67/12 2}
230...Rc5 {+0.43/14 3} 231.Qe6+ {+0.67/12 2} 231...Kb7 {+0.42/15 3}
232.Qg6 {+0.68/12 2} 232...Rc1 {+0.45/14 3} 233.Qe4+ {+0.67/12 2}
233...Ka6 {+0.44/15 3} 234.Qd3+ {+0.67/11 2} 234...Ka5 {0.00/15 3}
235.Qd8+ {+0.66/10 2} 235...Kb4 {0.00/15 3} 236.Qd6+ {+0.60/11 2}
236...Rc5 {0.00/16 3} 237.Qb8+ {+0.66/10 2} 237...Kc3 {0.00/18 3}
238.Qb6 {+0.61/11 3} 238...Kd3 {0.00/18 3} 239.Qa6+ {+0.29/11 3}
239...Rc4 {0.00/21 3} 240.Qb5 {0.00/10 2} 240...Bd2 {0.00/18 1} 241.Qe5
{0.00/15 2} 241...Kc2 {0.00/26 3} 242.Qd5 {0.00/16 2} 242...Rc3+ {
0.00/22 3} 243.Kf2 {0.00/18 2} 243...f3 {0.00/22 3} 244.Qa2+ {+0.28/11 2
} 244...Kd1 {0.00/22 3} 245.Qb1+ {+0.57/12 2} 245...Bc1 {0.00/22 3}
246.Qa1 {+0.57/11 2} 246...Rd3 {0.00/22 3} 247.Qa4+ {+0.54/12 2}
247...Kd2 {0.00/22 3} 248.Qb5 {+0.37/13 2} 248...Rc3 {0.00/21 3}
249.Qd5+ {+0.37/11 2} 249...Kc2 {0.00/23 3} 250.Qe4+ {+0.40/11 2}
250...Kd1 {0.00/22 3 Arena Adjudication} 1/2-1/2
[/pgn]

jm

AlvaroBegue · Post by **AlvaroBegue** » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:27 pm

g4 appears to be a winning move, according to Stockfish. So perhaps no human eye is required.

JVMerlino · Post by **JVMerlino** » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:39 pm

AlvaroBegue wrote:g4 appears to be a winning move, according to Stockfish. So perhaps no human eye is required.

Thanks, Alvaro. However, that's a bit strange because when I ran SF9, the score got to +5.31 fairly quickly, and then for the next eight iterations the score didn't move. Perhaps I should have let it run longer, but I found that rather suspicious.

Also, for me, the best move was Qf5, and never wavered.

AlvaroBegue · Post by **AlvaroBegue** » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:41 pm

JVMerlino wrote:
AlvaroBegue wrote:g4 appears to be a winning move, according to Stockfish. So perhaps no human eye is required.
Thanks, Alvaro. However, that's a bit strange because when I ran SF9, the score got to +5.31 fairly quickly, and then for the next eight iterations the score didn't move. Perhaps I should have let it run longer, but I found that rather suspicious.

Also, for me, the best move was Qf5, and never wavered.

I am using SF7, and at depth 40 the score jumps up. It's taking a long time, but it's currently at +22.07!

JVMerlino · Post by **JVMerlino** » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:54 pm

AlvaroBegue wrote:
JVMerlino wrote:
AlvaroBegue wrote:g4 appears to be a winning move, according to Stockfish. So perhaps no human eye is required.
Thanks, Alvaro. However, that's a bit strange because when I ran SF9, the score got to +5.31 fairly quickly, and then for the next eight iterations the score didn't move. Perhaps I should have let it run longer, but I found that rather suspicious.

Also, for me, the best move was Qf5, and never wavered.

I am using SF7, and at depth 40 the score jumps up. It's taking a long time, but it's currently at +22.07!

That sounds conclusive to me! Thanks again!

BeyondCritics · Post by **BeyondCritics** » Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:07 pm

When i analyze this with the latest stockfish it is always able to collect h5 in a few moves, so i would just do that in the first step.
The pawn f6 gives black a valuable outpost for the bishop, theras g3 just hangs around. It is a good idea to exchange those pawns (g3-g4-g5xf6).
And Queen + 2 pawns against rook and bishop is an easy win

Without the c-pawn it must be a draw.

Vinvin · Post by **Vinvin** » Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:57 pm

After 57.Qf5 : all moves are > 132

Code: Select all

FEN&#58; 8/4r1k1/2P2p2/4bQ1p/8/6PK/7P/8 b - - 1 57

Stockfish_180407_x64_modern&#58;
...
 41/50	01&#58;17	 1 154 660k	14 991k	+132,65	57. ... Bb8 58.Qxh5 Bc7 59.Qf5 Rf7 60.Kg4 Rf8 61.Qd7+ Rf7 62.Qd3 Re7 63.Qf5 Kf7 64.h4 Be5 65.Kh5 Bd6 66.Kh6 Rc7 67.Qd5+ Ke7 68.Kg6 Be5 69.g4 Bb2 70.g5 fxg5 71.Qxg5+ Ke8 72.Qe3+ Kd8 73.Qd2+ Ke7 74.Qxb2 Ke6 75.h5 Kd5 76.h6 Kd6 77.h7 Rc8 78.c7 Kd7 79.h8Q Rxh8
 41/44	01&#58;17	 1 154 660k	14 991k	+132,65	57. ... Bc7 58.Qxh5 Rf7 59.Qf5 Kg8 60.Kg4 Rg7+ 61.Kf3 Be5 62.Qe6+ Rf7 63.Kg4 Kf8 64.Kf5 Re7 65.Qd5 Kg7 66.Qd8 Kf7 67.Qh8 Rc7 68.g4 Rxc6 69.g5 Bd4 70.Qh7+ Ke8 71.gxf6 Kd8 72.f7 Rf6+ 73.Kg5 Be5 74.f8Q+ Rxf8
 41/52	01&#58;17	 1 154 660k	14 991k	+132,64	57. ... Ra7 58.Qxh5 Rc7 59.Qe8 Rf7 60.Kg4 Rf8 61.Qe6 Kg6 62.Qf5+ Kg7 63.Qd3 Bc7 64.Kf5 Rd8 65.Qe4 Be5 66.Qg4+ Kf7 67.Qc4+ Kg7 68.Qc5 Kh8 69.Qe7 Rg8 70.c7 Rg5+ 71.Ke6 Rg8 72.Qd8 Bxc7 73.Qxc7 Rf8 74.Qe7 Kg8 75.Qxf8+ Kxf8
 41/56	01&#58;17	 1 154 660k	14 991k	+132,64	57. ... Kf7 58.Kh4 Bc7 59.Qd3 f5 60.Qxf5+ Kg7 61.Qxh5 Re4+ 62.Kh3 Re5 63.Qg4+ Kf6 64.Qd4 Kf7 65.Qd7+ Re7 66.Qf5+ Kg7 67.Kh4 Rf7 68.Qe6 Kf8 69.Kg5 Re7 70.Qf6+ Rf7 71.Qd4 Ke7 72.Kg6 Ke6 73.Qe3+ Kd5 74.Kxf7 Bb8 75.Qd4+ Kxd4

JVMerlino wrote:In the last round of Sergio's Swiss Tournament V, Group C, it was King of Kings v Myrddin, and a win for either would mean promotion.

This position was reached, and both engines evaluated it solidly for White (KoK said +4.43 and Myrddin said +3.19 -- Myrddin has always been notoriously and badly conservative about passer evaluation). Every other engine I've tried gives it between +4 and +5 for White after about a minute think. Yet, the game ended in a draw (almost 200 full moves later).

But I can't find any move where KoK went horribly wrong. It may have been the fast TC (40 moves in 4 minutes), but I also suspect that this is a draw with best play and engines can't see it.

Any thoughts from knowledgeable humans would be welcome. I'd like to think that Myrddin defended well, but....

[D]8/4r1k1/2P2p2/4b2p/4Q3/6PK/7P/8 w - - 0 57

And here's the full game if anybody cares:

[pgn]
[Event "Swiss Tournament Ed.V.Group C"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2018.04.13"]
[Round "12.36"]
[White "King of Kings 2.56"]
[Black "Myrddin 0.87 64-bit"]
[TimeControl "0/120"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "D46"]

1.Nf3 d5 2.e3 c6 3.c4 e6 4.d4 Nf6 5.Nc3 Nbd7 6.Qc2 Bd6 7.Bd3 O-O 8.O-O
dxc4 {-0.52/13 3} 9.Bxc4 {0.00/10 5} 9...b5 {-0.37/13 3} 10.Bd3 {
+0.22/10 5} 10...Bb7 {-0.36/13 3} 11.Bd2 {+0.19/10 5} 11...Rc8 {-0.39/12
5} 12.Ng5 {+0.36/10 5} 12...h6 {-0.33/12 3} 13.Nge4 {+0.34/11 5}
13...Bc7 {-0.31/13 3} 14.Nxf6+ {+0.44/9 5} 14...Nxf6 {-0.31/14 3} 15.f4
{+0.37/10 5} 15...Bd6 {-0.02/11 3} 16.Rad1 {+0.34/10 5} 16...Qb6 {
+0.09/13 5} 17.Be1 {+0.23/9 5} 17...c5 {+0.81/13 3} 18.Nxb5 {+0.31/11 5}
18...cxd4 {+0.61/14 3} 19.Qe2 {+0.21/11 5} 19...Nd5 {+0.50/14 3} 20.Nxd4
{+0.21/10 5} 20...Nxf4 {+0.56/14 3} 21.exf4 {+0.23/11 5} 21...Qxd4+ {
+0.32/13 3} 22.Kh1 {+0.22/11 2} 22...Qa4 {+0.29/13 3} 23.Bc3 {+0.24/10 2
} 23...Qxa2 {+0.22/12 3} 24.Bb1 {+0.37/10 2} 24...Qa6 {+0.26/14 3}
25.Qg4 {+0.29/9 2} 25...Rxc3 {+0.10/13 3} 26.bxc3 {+0.49/10 2} 26...Qc6
{+0.08/12 3} 27.f5 {+0.52/9 2} 27...exf5 {-0.09/13 3} 28.Bxf5 {+0.53/9 2
} 28...Qc7 {+0.04/12 3} 29.Rd4 {+0.61/8 2} 29...Bc6 {+0.18/11 3} 30.Qh5
{+0.64/9 2} 30...Be5 {+0.38/12 4} 31.Rg4 {+0.64/10 2} 31...Qd6 {-0.11/12
3} 32.c4 {+0.90/9 2} 32...Rd8 {-0.36/12 4} 33.Be4 {+0.95/9 2} 33...Qf6 {
-0.30/13 3} 34.Rxg7+ {+0.84/11 2} 34...Qxg7 {-0.55/15 3} 35.Bxc6 {
+0.73/11 2} 35...f6 {-0.50/13 3} 36.Bd5+ {+0.94/9 2} 36...Kh8 {-0.51/16
3} 37.Qh3 {+0.89/10 2} 37...Qg5 {-0.51/15 5} 38.g3 {+0.83/10 2} 38...Qe3
{-0.35/12 2} 39.Qe6 {+0.94/10 2} 39...Qd4 {-0.51/12 2} 40.Kg2 {+0.95/9 2
} 40...a5 {-0.17/12 1} 41.Kh3 {+1.18/11 5} 41...Rf8 {-0.17/14 3} 42.Re1
{+1.34/11 5} 42...Qa7 {-0.34/13 3} 43.Re4 {+1.14/11 5} 43...a4 {-0.19/13
3} 44.Rg4 {+2.15/12 5} 44...Qh7 {-0.65/15 3} 45.Be4 {+1.98/12 4}
45...Qf7 {-1.89/15 4} 46.Qf5 {+2.46/12 5} 46...Re8 {-2.03/15 3} 47.Bd5 {
+2.75/11 3} 47...Qf8 {-1.79/15 2} 48.Rg6 {+3.36/11 3} 48...Bb2 {-2.07/14
3} 49.Qh5 {+3.32/12 3} 49...Re7 {-2.68/16 3} 50.c5 {+3.45/11 3} 50...Kh7
{-2.96/16 7} 51.Rg8 {+4.25/12 3} 51...Qxg8 {-3.01/17 2} 52.Bxg8+ {
+4.20/12 2} 52...Kxg8 {-3.02/17 2} 53.Qg4+ {+4.20/12 2} 53...Kh7 {
-3.02/17 4} 54.Qxa4 {+4.20/12 2} 54...Be5 {-3.21/16 3} 55.Qe4+ {+4.43/11
2} 55...Kg7 {-3.25/16 2} 56.c6 {+4.66/12 2} 56...h5 {-3.19/16 2} 57.Qc2
{+4.43/12 2} 57...Rc7 {-3.19/18 2} 58.Kh4 {+4.44/13 2} 58...Kh6 {
-3.19/19 2} 59.Qe4 {+4.46/12 2} 59...Rg7 {-3.19/18 2} 60.Qe3+ {+4.43/11
2} 60...Kg6 {-3.19/19 2} 61.Qe2 {+4.43/11 2} 61...Rh7 {-3.19/16 2}
62.Qc2+ {+4.44/12 2} 62...Kh6 {-3.19/17 2} 63.Qf5 {+4.46/13 2} 63...Kg7
{-3.19/18 2} 64.Qc8 {+4.44/13 2} 64...Kg6 {-3.19/18 2} 65.Qd8 {+4.44/12
2} 65...Kh6 {-3.19/19 2} 66.Qf8+ {+4.39/11 2} 66...Kg6 {-3.19/19 20}
67.Qg8+ {+4.42/11 2} 67...Rg7 {-3.19/19 1} 68.Qc4 {+4.39/12 2} 68...Rh7
{-3.19/18 1} 69.Qd3+ {+4.42/11 2} 69...Kh6 {-3.19/18 1} 70.Qd1 {+4.40/10
2} 70...Kg6 {-3.19/18 1} 71.Qb3 {+4.43/11 2} 71...Kh6 {-3.19/18 1}
72.Qe3+ {+4.37/12 3} 72...Kg6 {-3.19/20 1} 73.Qe4+ {+4.33/11 2} 73...Kh6
{-3.19/20 1} 74.Qd5 {+4.37/12 2} 74...Kg6 {-3.19/20 1} 75.Qf3 {+4.31/12
2} 75...Kh6 {-3.19/19 1} 76.Qf2 {+4.32/12 2} 76...Kg6 {-3.19/20 1}
77.Qa2 {+4.32/11 2} 77...Kh6 {-3.19/19 1} 78.Qg2 {+4.39/12 2} 78...Kg6 {
-3.19/19 1} 79.Qh1 {+4.31/12 2} 79...Kh6 {-3.19/17 1} 80.Qc1+ {+4.32/11
2} 80...Kg6 {-3.19/20 0} 81.Qd2 {+4.37/12 3} 81...Rg7 {-3.19/19 3}
82.Qc2+ {+4.31/11 2} 82...Kh6 {-3.19/20 3} 83.Qc1+ {+4.32/11 2} 83...Kg6
{-3.19/21 3} 84.Qf1 {+4.31/12 2} 84...Kh6 {-3.19/18 3} 85.Qa6 {+4.24/12
2} 85...Kg6 {-3.19/20 3} 86.Qb5 {+4.28/12 2} 86...Kh6 {-3.19/20 3}
87.Qc5 {+4.28/11 3} 87...Kg6 {-3.19/20 3} 88.Qb4 {+4.31/12 2} 88...Kh6 {
-3.19/18 3} 89.Qf8 {+4.32/9 2} 89...Kg6 {-3.19/19 3} 90.Qa8 {+4.31/12 2}
90...Rc7 {-3.19/17 3} 91.Qd8 {+4.31/12 2} 91...Kf5 {-3.19/18 3} 92.Qd5 {
+4.31/11 2} 92...Kg6 {-3.19/19 3} 93.Qd3+ {+4.31/11 2} 93...Kh6 {
-3.19/19 3} 94.Qe3+ {+4.31/12 2} 94...Kg6 {-3.19/20 3} 95.Qb6 {+4.32/12
2} 95...Re7 {-3.19/19 3} 96.Qb1+ {+4.31/11 2} 96...Kh6 {-3.19/20 3}
97.Qc1+ {+4.29/11 2} 97...Kg6 {-3.19/21 3} 98.Qc2+ {+4.28/12 2} 98...Kh6
{-3.19/20 3} 99.Qd2+ {+4.29/12 2} 99...Kg6 {-3.19/21 3} 100.Qd8 {
+4.28/11 8} 100...Rh7 {-3.19/19 3} 101.Qa5 {+4.26/11 2} 101...Rc7 {
-3.19/20 3} 102.Qb4 {+4.25/11 2} 102...Kh6 {-3.19/18 3} 103.Qb6 {
+4.00/11 2} 103...Rg7 {-1.94/17 3} 104.c7 {0.00/12 14} 104...Rxc7 {
-1.53/18 3} 105.Qe3+ {+2.30/12 2} 105...Kg6 {-1.53/19 3} 106.Qe4+ {
+2.30/13 2} 106...Kh6 {-1.53/20 3} 107.Qe2 {+2.30/13 2} 107...Rh7 {
-1.53/19 3} 108.Qe3+ {+2.30/12 2} 108...Kg7 {-1.49/20 3} 109.Qa7+ {
+2.27/13 2} 109...Kh6 {-1.49/20 3} 110.Qa8 {+2.27/12 2} 110...Kg7 {
-1.49/20 3} 111.Qb7+ {+2.27/12 2} 111...Kh6 {-1.49/20 3} 112.Qc8 {
+2.30/12 2} 112...Rc7 {-1.49/19 3} 113.Qh8+ {+2.27/13 2} 113...Rh7 {
-1.49/21 3} 114.Qe8 {+2.26/14 2} 114...Kg7 {-1.49/21 3} 115.Qd7+ {
+2.27/13 2} 115...Kg6 {-1.49/21 3} 116.Qd8 {+2.27/13 2} 116...Kh6 {
-1.49/20 3} 117.Qd3 {+2.26/13 2} 117...Rg7 {-1.14/19 3} 118.Qe3+ {
+2.27/10 2} 118...Rg5 {-1.14/20 3} 119.Kh3 {+2.27/12 2} 119...Kg7 {
-1.12/19 3} 120.Qf3 {+2.23/12 2} 120...Kh6 {-1.12/18 1} 121.Qa8 {
+2.12/12 2} 121...Rg4 {-1.12/19 3} 122.Qh8+ {+2.09/12 2} 122...Kg6 {
-1.12/21 3} 123.Qg8+ {+2.06/13 2} 123...Kh6 {-1.12/21 3} 124.Qf8+ {
+2.05/12 2} 124...Kg6 {-1.12/20 3} 125.Qe8+ {+2.04/13 2} 125...Kh6 {
-1.12/21 3} 126.Qe6 {+2.05/13 2} 126...Re4 {-1.12/20 3} 127.Qd5 {
+2.04/14 2} 127...Rd4 {-1.12/20 3} 128.Qb3 {+2.02/13 2} 128...Rd8 {
-1.12/18 3} 129.Qe3+ {+2.02/12 3} 129...Kg6 {-1.12/18 3} 130.Qc5 {
+2.02/12 2} 130...Rd2 {-1.12/17 3} 131.Qc4 {+2.04/12 2} 131...Kg7 {
-1.12/17 3} 132.Qe4 {+2.02/13 2} 132...Rd8 {-1.12/18 3} 133.Qe2 {
+2.02/13 2} 133...Kg6 {-1.12/18 3} 134.Qe1 {+2.01/12 2} 134...Rd4 {
-1.12/18 3} 135.Qb1+ {+1.82/12 2} 135...f5 {-0.95/17 3} 136.Qb5 {
+1.82/13 2} 136...Bf6 {-0.95/18 3} 137.Qe8+ {+1.54/12 2} 137...Kh6 {
-0.95/18 3} 138.Qe6 {+1.54/13 2} 138...Kg6 {-0.94/20 3} 139.Qg8+ {
+1.49/13 2} 139...Kh6 {-0.94/19 3} 140.Qf7 {+1.48/13 2} 140...Kg5 {
-0.94/17 3} 141.Qh7 {+1.47/12 2} 141...Rd8 {-0.79/17 3} 142.Qc7 {
+1.47/13 2} 142...Rd4 {-0.79/16 3} 143.Kg2 {+1.47/12 2} 143...h4 {
-0.79/15 3} 144.Qc1+ {+1.47/11 2} 144...Kg6 {-0.77/16 3} 145.gxh4 {
+1.47/12 2} 145...Rxh4 {-0.77/16 3} 146.Qc8 {+1.47/12 2} 146...Rg4+ {
-0.77/14 3} 147.Kf3 {+1.47/12 2} 147...Re4 {-0.77/15 3} 148.Qg8+ {
+1.47/12 2} 148...Kh6 {-0.78/17 3} 149.h3 {+1.46/12 2} 149...Bd4 {
-0.78/16 3} 150.Qf8+ {+1.46/12 2} 150...Kg6 {-0.77/17 3} 151.Qd6+ {
+1.46/12 2} 151...Kg5 {-0.77/17 3} 152.Qd8+ {+1.43/12 2} 152...Kh5 {
-0.77/17 3} 153.Kg3 {+1.42/11 2} 153...Be5+ {-0.77/16 3} 154.Kf2 {
+1.42/13 2} 154...Bd4+ {-0.77/16 3} 155.Kf3 {+1.47/13 2} 155...Bg7 {
-0.77/16 3} 156.Qd5 {+1.43/10 4} 156...Kg5 {-0.77/17 3} 157.Qd2+ {
+1.43/13 2} 157...Kh5 {-0.77/18 3} 158.Qd7 {+1.43/14 2} 158...Kg6 {
-0.77/17 3} 159.Qd6+ {+1.43/13 2} 159...Kg5 {-0.77/18 3} 160.Qg3+ {
+1.41/12 2} 160...Kh6 {-0.77/19 1} 161.Qc7 {+1.42/13 2} 161...Kg6 {
-0.77/17 3} 162.Kg2 {+1.42/12 2} 162...Bf6 {-0.77/16 3} 163.Qd6 {
+1.42/11 2} 163...Kg5 {-0.77/16 3} 164.Qd3 {+1.42/12 2} 164...Bd4 {
-0.77/16 3} 165.Qg3+ {+1.42/12 2} 165...Kh6 {-0.77/17 3} 166.Qb8 {
+1.41/11 2} 166...Re2+ {-0.77/16 3} 167.Kf1 {+1.41/12 2} 167...Re4 {
-0.77/17 3} 168.Qd8 {+1.41/13 2} 168...Kh5 {-0.77/16 3} 169.Kg2 {
+1.42/12 2} 169...Re2+ {-0.77/17 3} 170.Kg3 {+1.52/11 2} 170...Re4 {
-0.77/16 3} 171.h4 {+1.49/12 2} 171...Be5+ {0.00/15 3} 172.Kh3 {+0.69/13
9} 172...Re3+ {0.00/17 3} 173.Kg2 Bf4 {0.00/18 3} 174.Qf6 {+0.67/12 2}
174...Kg4 {0.00/19 3} 175.Qd4 {+0.66/13 2} 175...Re2+ {0.00/17 3}
176.Kf1 {+0.66/12 2} 176...Rh2 {0.00/17 3} 177.h5 {+0.60/12 2}
177...Rxh5 {0.00/17 3} 178.Qg7+ {+0.67/12 2} 178...Rg5 {0.00/15 3}
179.Qd7 {+0.65/13 2} 179...Rg6 {+0.29/15 3} 180.Qd1+ {+0.67/11 2}
180...Kg5 {+0.20/15 3} 181.Qd8+ {+0.70/12 2} 181...Rf6 {0.00/18 3}
182.Kf2 {+0.78/13 2} 182...Bd6 {+0.26/13 3} 183.Kf3 {+0.79/12 2}
183...Bf8 {+0.09/14 3} 184.Qd2+ {+0.78/12 2} 184...Kh5 {0.00/17 3}
185.Qh2+ {+0.79/12 2} 185...Kg6 {0.00/18 3} 186.Qg3+ {+0.79/13 2}
186...Kh7 {0.00/18 3} 187.Qg5 {+0.78/11 2} 187...Be7 {0.00/16 3} 188.Qd2
{+0.79/13 2} 188...Kg7 {0.00/16 3} 189.Qd7 {+0.79/12 2} 189...Rf7 {
0.00/18 3} 190.Qc7 {+0.73/12 4} 190...Bg5 {0.00/16 3} 191.Qc3+ {+0.73/12
2} 191...Kh7 {0.00/18 3} 192.Kf2 {+0.71/13 2} 192...Re7 {+0.35/14 3}
193.Qc4 {+0.65/12 2} 193...Be3+ {+0.39/14 3} 194.Kf3 {+0.65/12 2}
194...f4 {+0.38/15 3} 195.Qd3+ {+0.75/12 2} 195...Kg8 {+0.26/15 2}
196.Qd5+ {+0.73/13 2} 196...Kf8 {+0.28/16 5} 197.Qc4 {+0.73/13 2}
197...Rd7 {+0.28/13 2} 198.Qc3 {+0.72/12 2} 198...Rd2 {+0.47/13 2}
199.Qf6+ {+0.71/11 2} 199...Ke8 {+0.45/15 2} 200.Qe6+ {+0.71/11 2}
200...Kd8 {+0.45/15 1} 201.Qg8+ {+0.69/12 2} 201...Ke7 {+0.46/14 3}
202.Qg7+ {+0.69/11 2} 202...Ke6 {+0.45/15 3} 203.Qc7 {+0.69/12 2}
203...Kd5 {+0.45/12 3} 204.Qd7+ {+0.69/11 2} 204...Kc5 {+0.45/14 3}
205.Qf5+ {+0.68/11 2} 205...Kb4 {+0.48/15 3} 206.Qe4+ {+0.67/12 2}
206...Kb3 {+0.47/14 3} 207.Qb7+ {+0.66/12 2} 207...Kc2 {+0.47/15 3}
208.Qc6+ {+0.67/12 2} 208...Kb2 {+0.46/16 3} 209.Qb5+ {+0.66/12 2}
209...Ka2 {+0.46/16 3} 210.Qa4+ {+0.66/13 2} 210...Kb1 {+0.44/17 3}
211.Qb3+ {+0.66/13 2} 211...Kc1 {+0.44/17 3} 212.Qc4+ {+0.66/13 2}
212...Rc2 {+0.44/17 3} 213.Qd5 {+0.66/11 2} 213...Rf2+ {+0.45/15 3}
214.Ke4 {+0.47/11 2} 214...Rh2 {+0.44/14 3} 215.Qd3 {+0.46/12 2}
215...Kb2 {+0.44/15 3} 216.Qc4 {+0.51/12 2} 216...Rd2 {+0.44/14 3}
217.Qc8 {+0.47/12 2} 217...Rd4+ {+0.45/15 3} 218.Kf3 {+0.48/12 2}
218...Rb4 {+0.45/14 3} 219.Qh8+ {+0.71/10 2} 219...Kb3 {+0.45/16 3}
220.Qe5 {+0.76/11 2} 220...Kc4 {+0.43/15 3} 221.Qe4+ {+0.74/11 2}
221...Kc3 {+0.43/17 3} 222.Qc6+ {+0.74/12 2} 222...Kb3 {+0.43/16 3}
223.Qc7 {+0.66/13 2} 223...Rb5 {+0.44/15 3} 224.Qd6 {+0.66/11 2}
224...Kc3 {+0.43/15 3} 225.Qc6+ {+0.66/12 2} 225...Kb4 {+0.43/16 3}
226.Qf6 {+0.66/12 2} 226...Rd5 {+0.42/14 3} 227.Qb2+ {+0.73/11 2}
227...Kc5 {+0.43/14 3} 228.Qc3+ {+0.67/11 2} 228...Kb5 {+0.42/16 3}
229.Qb3+ {+0.64/11 2} 229...Kc6 {+0.42/15 3} 230.Qc4+ {+0.67/12 2}
230...Rc5 {+0.43/14 3} 231.Qe6+ {+0.67/12 2} 231...Kb7 {+0.42/15 3}
232.Qg6 {+0.68/12 2} 232...Rc1 {+0.45/14 3} 233.Qe4+ {+0.67/12 2}
233...Ka6 {+0.44/15 3} 234.Qd3+ {+0.67/11 2} 234...Ka5 {0.00/15 3}
235.Qd8+ {+0.66/10 2} 235...Kb4 {0.00/15 3} 236.Qd6+ {+0.60/11 2}
236...Rc5 {0.00/16 3} 237.Qb8+ {+0.66/10 2} 237...Kc3 {0.00/18 3}
238.Qb6 {+0.61/11 3} 238...Kd3 {0.00/18 3} 239.Qa6+ {+0.29/11 3}
239...Rc4 {0.00/21 3} 240.Qb5 {0.00/10 2} 240...Bd2 {0.00/18 1} 241.Qe5
{0.00/15 2} 241...Kc2 {0.00/26 3} 242.Qd5 {0.00/16 2} 242...Rc3+ {
0.00/22 3} 243.Kf2 {0.00/18 2} 243...f3 {0.00/22 3} 244.Qa2+ {+0.28/11 2
} 244...Kd1 {0.00/22 3} 245.Qb1+ {+0.57/12 2} 245...Bc1 {0.00/22 3}
246.Qa1 {+0.57/11 2} 246...Rd3 {0.00/22 3} 247.Qa4+ {+0.54/12 2}
247...Kd2 {0.00/22 3} 248.Qb5 {+0.37/13 2} 248...Rc3 {0.00/21 3}
249.Qd5+ {+0.37/11 2} 249...Kc2 {0.00/23 3} 250.Qe4+ {+0.40/11 2}
250...Kd1 {0.00/22 3 Arena Adjudication} 1/2-1/2
[/pgn]

jm

Eelco de Groot · Post by **Eelco de Groot** » Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:30 am

JVMerlino wrote:
AlvaroBegue wrote:g4 appears to be a winning move, according to Stockfish. So perhaps no human eye is required.
Thanks, Alvaro. However, that's a bit strange because when I ran SF9, the score got to +5.31 fairly quickly, and then for the next eight iterations the score didn't move. Perhaps I should have let it run longer, but I found that rather suspicious.

The top three engines I think all have aggressive Singular Extensions in the PV, for any side that has the move in a PV node, whereas in nullwindow searches only the Fail High, CUT nodes are extended. So they get to a large depth there fairly quickly at the expensense often of all the side branches which are heavily pruned. So that a score that seems to stall even if large, is not unusual. I mean it should not always be taken as a sign of a fortress. In this case Dev version of Stockfish and maybe large hash would also help. Kaissa goes to +6 quickly here.

8/4r1k1/2P2p2/4b2p/4Q3/6PK/7P/8 w - -

Engine: Kaissa III (512 MB)
by T. Romstad, M. Costalba, J. Kiiski, G.

23/46 0:01 +4.96 1.g4 Kh6 2.Qe3+ Kg6 3.Qd3+ Kh6
4.Qd2+ Kg6 5.Qc2+ Kh6 6.Kh4 hxg4
7.Kxg4 Rg7+ 8.Kf5 Rg5+ 9.Ke6 Rg7
10.h4 Kh5 11.Qe4 Kh6 12.Kf5 Rg3
13.Qd5 Rc3 14.Qf7 (3.962.728) 2387

24/40 0:02 +5.04 1.g4 Kh6 2.Qe3+ Kg6 3.Qd3+ Kh6
4.Qd2+ Kg6 5.Qc2+ Kh6 6.Kh4 hxg4
7.Kxg4 Rg7+ 8.Kf5 Rg5+ 9.Ke6 Rg7
10.h4 Kh5 11.Qc4 Kg6 12.Qc1 Rc7
13.Qc2+ Kh6 14.Kf5 (5.580.672) 2440

25/40 0:03 +5.19++ 1.g4 (7.550.235) 2441

25/47 0:03 +5.25 1.g4 Kh6 2.Qe3+ Kg6 3.Qd3+ Kh6
4.Qd2+ Kg6 5.Qc2+ Kh6 6.Kh4 Rg7
7.Qc1+ Rg5 8.gxh5 Bxh2 9.c7 Bg3+
10.Kh3 Bxc7 11.Qxc7 Rxh5+ 12.Kg3 Kg6
13.Qc8 Rh7 14.Kg4 (9.172.204) 2477

26/50 0:04 +5.32++ 1.g4 (11.081.878) 2484

26/50 0:05 +5.40++ 1.g4 (12.605.273) 2518

26/50 0:06 +5.49 1.g4 Kh6 2.Qe3+ Kg6 3.Qd3+ Kh6
4.Qd2+ Kg6 5.Qc2+ Kh6 6.Kh4 hxg4
7.Kxg4 Rg7+ 8.Kf5 Rg5+ 9.Ke6 Rg7
10.Qc1+ Kg6 11.h4 Rc7 12.Qc2+ Kh5
13.Qg2 Kh6 14.Kf5 (15.814.837) 2523

27/42 0:07 +5.57++ 1.g4 (19.307.679) 2547

27/43 0:08 +5.64++ 1.g4 (21.989.316) 2554

27/46 0:09 +5.75++ 1.g4 (25.566.692) 2570

27/50 0:11 +5.91++ 1.g4 (29.786.039) 2598

27/58 0:13 +5.94 1.g4 Kh6 2.Qe3+ Kg6 3.Qd3+ Kh6
4.Qd2+ Kg6 5.Qc2+ Kh6 6.Kh4 hxg4
7.Kxg4 Rg7+ 8.Kf5 Rg5+ 9.Ke6 Rg7
10.Qc1+ Kg6 11.h4 Rc7 12.Qc2+ Kh5
13.Kf5 Rg7 14.Qd1+ (35.997.470) 2624

28/50 0:15 +6.02++ 1.g4 (41.499.851) 2634

28/54 0:19 +6.09++ 1.g4 (50.271.868) 2643

28/64 0:23 +6.15 1.g4 Kh6 2.Qe3+ Kg6 3.Qd3+ Kh6
4.Qd2+ Kg6 5.Qc2+ Kh6 6.Kh4 hxg4
7.Kxg4 Rg7+ 8.Kf5 Rg5+ 9.Ke6 Rg7
10.Qd2+ Kg6 11.h4 Rc7 12.h5+ Kh7
13.Qc2+ Kg7 14.Kf5 (62.107.965) 2673

29/55 0:29 +6.19 1.g4 Kh6 2.Qe3+ Kg6 3.Qd3+ Kh6
4.Qd2+ Kg6 5.Qc2+ Kh6 6.Kh4 hxg4
7.Kxg4 Rg7+ 8.Kf5 Rg5+ 9.Ke6 Rg7
10.Qd2+ Kg6 11.h4 Rc7 12.h5+ Kh7
13.Qc2+ Kg7 14.Kd5 (78.291.486) 2686

30/59 0:32 +6.19 1.g4 Kh6 2.Qe3+ Kg6 3.Qd3+ Kh6
4.Qd2+ Kg6 5.Qc2+ Kh6 6.Kh4 hxg4
7.Kxg4 Rg7+ 8.Kf5 Rg5+ 9.Ke6 Rg7
10.Qd2+ Kg6 11.h4 Kh7 12.h5 Rg4
13.c7 Bxc7 14.Qc2+ (86.886.405) 2674

31/58 0:38 +6.27++ 1.g4 (104.126.774) 2696

31/58 0:44 +6.34++ 1.g4 (120.806.570) 2708

31/61 0:51 +6.45++ 1.g4 (141.352.400) 2722

31/61 1:03 +6.61++ 1.g4 (173.551.687) 2738

31/61 1:06 +6.61 1.g4 Kh6 2.Qe3+ Kg6 3.Qd3+ Kh6
4.Qd2+ Kg6 5.Qc2+ Kh6 6.Kh4 hxg4
7.Kxg4 Rg7+ 8.Kf5 Rg5+ 9.Ke6 Rg7
10.Qd2+ Kg6 11.h4 Kh7 12.h5 Kh8
13.h6 Rc7 14.Kf5 (182.821.355) 2736

32/56 1:18 +6.61 1.g4 Kh6 2.Qe3+ Kg6 3.Qd3+ Kh6
4.Qd2+ Kg6 5.Qc2+ Kh6 6.Kh4 hxg4
7.Kxg4 Rg7+ 8.Kf5 Rg5+ 9.Ke6 Rg7
10.Qd2+ Kg6 11.h4 Kh7 12.h5 Rc7
13.Qd3+ Kh8 14.Kf5 (215.569.455) 2734

33/60 1:33 +6.69++ 1.g4 (255.770.615) 2749

33/60 1:47 +6.76++ 1.g4 (296.274.993) 2758

33/60 1:56 +6.76 1.g4 Kh6 2.Qe3+ Kg6 3.Qd3+ Kh6
4.Qd2+ Kg6 5.Qc2+ Kh6 6.Kh4 hxg4
7.Kxg4 Rg7+ 8.Kf5 Rg5+ 9.Ke6 Rg8
10.Qe2 Rc8 11.Kf5 Kh7 12.Qd2 Rc7
13.h4 Rg7 14.h5 (322.629.259) 2760

34/60 2:27 +6.76 1.g4 Kh6 2.Qe3+ Kg6 3.Qd3+ Kh6
4.Qd2+ Kg6 5.Qc2+ Kh6 6.Kh4 hxg4
7.Kxg4 Rg7+ 8.Kf5 Rg5+ 9.Ke6 Rg8
10.Qe2 Rc8 11.Kf5 Kh7 12.Qd2 Rc7
13.h4 Rg7 14.h5 (409.245.338) 2765

35/60 2:44 +6.76 1.g4 Kh6 2.Qe3+ Kg6 3.Qd3+ Kh6
4.Qd2+ Kg6 5.Qc2+ Kh6 6.Kh4 hxg4
7.Kxg4 Rg7+ 8.Kf5 Rg5+ 9.Ke6 Rg8
10.Qe2 Rc8 11.Kf5 Kh7 12.Qd2 Rc7
13.h4 Rg7 14.h5 (456.664.555) 2776

36/65 4:01 +6.77 1.g4 Kh6 2.Qe3+ Kg6 3.Qd3+ Kh6
4.Qd2+ Kg6 5.Qc2+ Kh6 6.Kh4 hxg4
7.Kxg4 Rg7+ 8.Kf5 Rg5+ 9.Ke6 Rg8
10.h4 Rg7 11.Qd2+ Kg6 12.h5+ Kh7
13.Qc2+ Kh6 14.Qc1+ (673.982.540) 2786

37/67 4:30 +6.85++ 1.g4 (758.002.141) 2800

37/67 5:49 +6.92 1.g4 Kh6 2.Qe3+ Kg6 3.Qd3+ Kh6
4.Qd2+ Kg6 5.Qc2+ Kf7 6.gxh5 Ke6
7.Qg6 Kd5 8.Kg4 Kxc6 9.h6 Rb7 10.Kf5 Rb2
11.Qe8+ Kd6 12.h7 Rf2+ 13.Kg6 Rg2+
14.Kf7 (981.773.818) 2809

38/65 6:28 +6.99++ 1.g4 (1.093.826.006) 2818

38/65 7:22 +7.07++ 1.g4 (1.254.218.746) 2834

38/76 8:54 +7.07 1.g4 Kh6 2.Qe3+ Kg6 3.Qd3+ Kh6
4.Qd2+ Kg6 5.Qc2+ Kh6 6.Kh4 hxg4
7.Kxg4 Rg7+ 8.Kf5 Rg5+ 9.Ke6 Rg7
10.h3 Kh5 11.Qe4 Rg6 12.h4 Rg7
13.Kf5 Kh6 14.Qe3+ (1.524.365.895) 2852

39/68 9:51 +7.14++ 1.g4 (1.696.905.455) 2868

39/68 12:04 +7.14 1.g4 Kh6 2.Qe3+ Kg6 3.Qd3+ Kh6
4.Qd2+ Kg6 5.Qc2+ Kh6 6.Kh4 hxg4
7.Kxg4 Rg7+ 8.Kf5 Rg5+ 9.Ke6 Rg7
10.h3 Kh5 11.Qe4 Rg6 12.h4 Rg7
13.Kf5 Kh6 14.Qe3+ (2.089.496.172) 2885

40/74 14:32 +7.22++ 1.g4 (2.527.832.152) 2895

40/74 15:40 +7.29++ 1.g4 (2.720.917.604) 2891

40/75 17:06 +7.40++ 1.g4 (2.963.529.705) 2888

40/75 18:17 +7.56++ 1.g4 (3.174.734.460) 2892

40/75 20:07 +7.78++ 1.g4 (3.502.110.575) 2901

40/75 23:00 +8.07++ 1.g4 (4.011.325.534) 2906

40/75 33:13 +8.07 1.g4 Kh6 2.Qe3+ Kg6 3.Qd3+ Kh6
4.Qd2+ Kg6 5.Qc2+ Kh6 6.Kh4 hxg4
7.Kxg4 Rg7+ 8.Kf5 Rg5+ 9.Ke6 Rg8
10.h4 Rg7 11.Kf5 Kh7 12.Qd2 Rg1
13.Ke6 Rg7 14.h5 (5.797.394.876) 2907

Also, for me, the best move was Qf5, and never wavered.

57. Qf5 may be the better move

Even after giving g4 the head start above from single PV:

[D]8/4r1k1/2P2p2/4b2p/4Q3/6PK/7P/8 w - -

Engine: Kaissa III (512 MB)
by T. Romstad, M. Costalba, J. Kiiski, G. Linscott

40 165:28 +9.43 1.Qf5 Kf7 2.Kh4 Bc7 3.Qd3 Ke6 4.Kxh5 Rg7
5.Kh6 Re7 6.Kg6 Be5 7.h4 Rc7 8.Qf5+ Kd6
9.h5 Rxc6 10.h6 Rb6 11.h7 Rb8
12.Qd3+ Kc5 13.Qe4 Rh8 14.g4 (29.731.643.984) 2994

40 165:28 +8.87 1.g4 Kh6 2.Qe3+ Kg6 3.Qd3+ Kh6
4.Qd2+ Kg6 5.Qc2+ Kh6 6.Kh4 Rg7
7.gxh5 Rg5 8.Qe2 Kh7 9.c7 Bxc7
10.Qc2+ Kh6 11.Qxc7 Rxh5+ 12.Kg3 Re5
13.h4 Kg6 14.Qc2+ (29.731.643.984) 2994

40 165:28 +8.22 1.Qd3 Ra7 2.Qc2 Kh6 3.Kh4 Rg7 4.Qc1+ Kg6
5.Qe3 Bc7 6.Qe8+ Kf5 7.Qe2 Bd6
8.Qb5+ Ke4 9.Qc4+ Kf5 10.Qd5+ Be5
11.Qd3+ Ke6 12.Kxh5 Rc7 13.Qb3+ Kd6
14.Kg6 (29.731.643.984) 2994

40 165:28 +7.86 1.Qc2 Kf7 2.Kh4 Ke6 3.Kxh5 f5 4.Qb3+ Kf6
5.Qg8 Rg7 6.Qh8 Ke6 7.Qc8+ Kf6
8.Qf8+ Ke6 9.h4 Rc7 10.Qg8+ Kd6
11.Qg6+ Kd5 12.Qxf5 Rxc6 13.Kg5 Rc7
14.Qd3+ (29.731.643.984) 2994

40 165:28 +7.82 1.Qf3 Kf7 2.Kh4 Ke6 3.Kxh5 f5 4.Qb3+ Kf6
5.Qg8 Rg7 6.Qf8+ Ke6 7.h4 Rh7+ 8.Kg6 Rc7
9.Qg8+ Kd6 10.Kxf5 Bc3 11.Qe6+ Kc5
12.g4 Rxc6 13.Qe7+ Rd6 14.h5 (29.731.643.984) 2994

AlvaroBegue · Post by **AlvaroBegue** » Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:29 pm

I think the position is an easy win for white. My engine RuyDos is perhaps 500 Elo weaker than SF9, and yet when I gave it the white pieces from that position, it had no trouble making progress and winning the game.

[pgn][Event "Computer Chess Game"]
[Site "XPS13"]
[Date "2018.04.19"]
[Round "-"]
[White "RuyDos 1.1.6r"]
[Black "Stockfish 101217 64 BMI2"]
[Result "1-0"]
[TimeControl "120+12"]
[FEN "8/4r1k1/2P2p2/4b2p/4Q3/6PK/7P/8 w - - 0 1"]
[SetUp "1"]

1. Qc2 {+2.85/22} Kh6 {-5.36/34 31} 2. Kh4 {+2.90/20 5} Rg7 {-6.06/31 10}
3. Qd2+ {+2.89/22 6} Kg6 {-6.72/31 18} 4. Qd3+ {+2.91/24 5} Kh6
{-6.72/38 15} 5. Qe3+ {+2.90/26 8} Kg6 {-6.72/39 8} 6. Qf3 {+2.90/27 7} f5
{-6.87/40 1:13} 7. Qxh5+ {+3.54/22 30} Kf6 {-6.87/1 0.1} 8. Qh6+
{+3.55/23 7} Kf7 {-7.66/31 31} 9. Kh3 {+3.57/23 5} Bc7 {-7.60/28 30} 10.
Kg2 {+3.58/22 11} Be5 {-8.37/29 12} 11. Kf3 {+3.78/21 7} Bc7 {-8.52/29 12}
12. Ke2 {+3.99/23 7} Kg8 {-8.54/32 8} 13. Qe6+ {+5.93/23 1:07} Kh7
{-11.96/27 16} 14. Qxf5+ {+6.50/20 6} Kg8 {-19.16/25 10} 15. h4
{+6.51/22 6} Re7+ {-10.13/22 10} 16. Kd3 {+7.19/21 7} Rf7 {-16.45/24 16}
17. Qg6+ {+7.69/21 7} Kf8 {-13.58/19 2.2} 18. h5 {+9.14/21 34} Rg7
{-46.41/24 22} 19. Qe6 {+19.92/20 15} Rf7 {-132.70/29 12} 20. h6
{+98.83/19 22} Rf1 {-132.73/38 9} 21. h7 {+98.87/20 20} Rd1+ {-132.74/39 4}
22. Ke2 {+98.89/20 13} Rh1 {-132.75/48 15} 23. Qf6+ {+98.91/19 30} Ke8
{-132.76/1 0.1} 24. h8=R+ {+98.93/21 7} Rxh8 {-132.77/1 0.1} 25. Qxh8+
{+98.95/24 6} Kf7 {-132.77/69 23} 26. Qh7+ {+98.97/26 7} Kf6
{-132.78/63 33} 27. Qxc7 {+98.99/26 6} 1-0
[/pgn]

May need a human eye for this one

May need a human eye for this one

Re: May need a human eye for this one

Re: May need a human eye for this one

Re: May need a human eye for this one

Re: May need a human eye for this one

Re: May need a human eye for this one

Re: May need a human eye for this one

Re: May need a human eye for this one

Re: May need a human eye for this one