Which one is wrong?

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

Moderators: hgm, Rebel, chrisw

Which one would you choose?

Old is correct: +1.9 for White, Black plays 1...Rb6
4
80%
New is correct: +1 for White, Black plays 1...a3
1
20%
 
Total votes: 5
User avatar
Eelco de Groot
Posts: 4564
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 2:40 am
Full name:   

Which one is wrong?

Post by Eelco de Groot »

Can somebody maybe help decide if I broke something again :roll:

A position from a bit anonymous poster on Fishcooking. I really don't know if the positions are all supposed to be draws or wins for the stronger side and if that is obvious to any decent player... It's not obvious from the accompanying text,
I tried only the first position with unequal coloured bishops (the very first one that is posted in the thread has equal colour bishops, this is the corrected version I suppose) and after running Ancalagon_014 all night, Im still not completely convinced that White wins this one. I have not tried the others in the thread.

I do believe the poster has a serious question that is worthy of more investigation.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic ... dVnB69tePg "Mild material modifier for opposite-colored bishops when exchange ahead"

Old:

[D]4k3/1p4pb/r1n1p2p/3p4/p2P4/4B3/PP3PPP/2RR1K2 b - -

Engine: Ancalagon_014 HT (256 MB)
by T. Romstad, M. Costalba, J. Kiiski, G. Linscott

24/33 0:01 +1.25 1...Rb6 2.Rd2 Na5 3.b3 axb3 4.Rb2 Bd3+
5.Ke1 Bc4 6.Ra1 Ra6 7.axb3 Nxb3
8.Rxa6 bxa6 9.Kd1 Ke7 10.Kc2 Na5
11.Rb8 Bf1 12.g3 Bb5 13.Kc3 Kf6
14.Rf8+ Ke7 (21.759.235) 10912

25/35 0:03 +1.00++ 1...Rb6 (42.227.184) 11013

25/35 0:04 +1.09-- 1...Rb6 2.Rd2 (54.412.286) 10996

25/35 0:05 +1.20 1...Rb6 2.Rd2 Na5 3.b3 axb3 4.axb3 Rxb3
5.Rc7 Bd3+ 6.Ke1 Nc4 7.Rd1 Kf8 8.Bf4 Kg8
9.f3 b5 10.Kf2 b4 11.Rb7 g5 12.Be5 Rb2+
13.Kg1 Bb1 14.Bg7 Nd6 (57.917.810) 10990

26/36 0:08 +1.22 1...Rb6 2.Rd2 Na5 3.b3 axb3 4.axb3 Rxb3
5.Rc7 Bd3+ 6.Ke1 Nc4 7.Rd1 Kf8 8.Bf4 Kg8
9.Be5 Nxe5 10.dxe5 Bc4 11.f4 Rb2
12.Rd2 Rb1+ 13.Kf2 Kf8 14.Kg3 b5 (93.993.253) 10994

27/36 0:09 +1.26 1...Rb6 2.Rd2 Na5 3.b3 axb3 4.axb3 Rxb3
5.Rc7 Bd3+ 6.Ke1 Nc4 7.Rd1 Kf8 8.Bf4 Kg8
9.Be5 Nxe5 10.dxe5 Ba6 11.f4 g5
12.Re7 gxf4 13.Rxe6 Bc4 14.Kf2 Rb2+ (102.396.290) 10989

28/36 0:15 +1.29 1...Rb6 2.Rd2 Na5 3.b3 axb3 4.axb3 Rxb3
5.Rc7 Bd3+ 6.Ke1 Nc4 7.Rd1 Kf8 8.Bf4 Kg8
9.Be5 Nxe5 10.dxe5 Ba6 11.f4 Rb4
12.g3 g5 13.Re7 gxf4 14.Rxe6 fxg3 (170.318.715) 10818

29/36 0:22 +1.36-- 1...Rb6 2.Rd2 Na5 3.b3 axb3 4.axb3 Rxb3
5.Rc7 Bd3+ 6.Ke1 Nc4 7.Rd1 Kf8 8.Bf4 Nb2
9.Ra1 Ba6 10.Bd6+ Kg8 11.Ra3 Nd3+
12.Kd2 Rxa3 13.Bxa3 Nxf2 (235.790.438) 10622

29/45 0:28 +1.43-- 1...Rb6 2.Rd2 Na5 3.b3 axb3 4.axb3 Rxb3
5.Rc7 Bd3+ 6.Ke1 Kf8 7.Ra2 b6 8.Bc1 Rb1
9.Rb2 Rxb2 10.Bxb2 Nc4 11.Bc3 h5
12.Bb4+ Kg8 13.f3 (302.200.391) 10434

29/46 0:31 +1.36++ 1...Rb6 2.Rd2 Na5 3.b3 axb3 4.axb3 Rxb3
5.Rc7 Bd3+ 6.Ke1 Nc4 7.Rd1 g5 8.Ra1 Na3
9.Kd1 Kd8 10.Rg7 Ba6 11.Rg6 Rd3+
12.Kc1 Kd7 (325.378.939) 10392

29/46 0:37 +1.36 1...Rb6 2.Rd2 Na5 3.b3 axb3 4.axb3 Rxb3
5.Rc7 Bd3+ 6.Ke1 Nc4 7.Rd1 Kf8 8.Bf4 Kg8
9.Be5 Nxe5 10.dxe5 Bc4 11.f4 Rb2
12.Rd2 Rb1+ 13.Kf2 Kf8 14.Ke3 Re1+ (392.408.058) 10338
.
.
.
43/63 53:37 +1.57 1...Rb6 2.Rd2 Na5 3.b3 axb3 4.axb3 Rxb3
5.Rc7 Bd3+ 6.Ke1 Nc4 7.Rd1 Kf8 8.Bf4 Nb2
9.Ra1 Ba6 10.Ra3 Nd3+ 11.Kd2 Rxa3
12.Bd6+ Kg8 13.Bxa3 Nxf2 14.Re7 Ne4+ (32.092.861.237) 9975

44/63 57:17 +1.52 1...Rb6 2.Rd2 Na5 3.b3 axb3 4.axb3 Rxb3
5.Rc7 Nc4 6.Rd1 Rxe3 7.fxe3 Nxe3+
8.Ke2 Nxd1 9.Kxd1 Kf8 10.Rxb7 Be4
11.g3 Kg8 12.Kd2 Kh7 13.Kc3 Kg6
14.Kb4 Kf6 (34.309.444.709) 9980

45/63 67:25 +1.60-- 1...Rb6 2.Rd2 Na5 3.b3 axb3 4.axb3 Rxb3
5.Rc7 Nc4 6.Rd1 Rxe3 7.fxe3 Nxe3+
8.Ke1 Nxd1 9.Kxd1 Kf8 10.Rxb7 Be4
11.g3 Kg8 12.Kd2 Kh7 13.Kc3 e5
14.Rc7 exd4+ (40.527.964.400) 10017

45/63 96:31 +1.67-- 1...Rb6 2.Rd2 Na5 (58.025.292.551) 10019

45/63 97:40 +1.60++ 1...Rb6 (58.724.732.867) 10020

45/63 98:10 +1.44++ 1...Rb6 (59.031.194.662) 10021

45/63 100:52 +1.56-- 1...Rb6 2.Rd2 Na5 3.b3 axb3 4.axb3 Rxb3
5.Rc7 Nc4 6.Rd1 Rxe3 7.fxe3 Nxe3+
8.Ke2 Nxd1 9.Kxd1 Kf8 10.Rxb7 Be4
11.g3 Kg8 12.Kd2 Kh7 13.Ra7 Kg6
14.Kc3 Kf6 (60.686.126.109) 10025

45/64 102:51 +1.43 1...Rb6 2.Rd2 Na5 3.b3 axb3 4.axb3 Rxb3
5.Rc7 Bd3+ 6.Ke1 Nc4 7.Rd1 Kf8 8.Bf4 Kg8
9.Be5 Nxe5 10.dxe5 Bc4 11.f3 Kh7
12.Kf2 Rb2+ 13.Kg3 b5 14.Re7 Re2 (61.879.045.814) 10026

46/64 111:41 +1.50-- 1...Rb6 2.Rd2 (67.198.006.093) 10026

46/64 116:39 +1.58-- 1...Rb6 2.Rd2 Na5 3.b3 axb3 4.axb3 Rxb3
5.Rc7 Bd3+ 6.Ke1 Nc4 7.Rd1 Kf8 8.Bf4 Nb2
9.Ra1 Ba6 10.Bd6+ Kg8 11.Ra3 Nd3+
12.Kd2 Rxa3 13.Bxa3 Nxf2 14.Re7 Ne4+ (70.209.807.034) 10031

46/64 124:04 +1.50++ 1...Rb6 (74.705.813.926) 10034

46/64 125:49 +1.59-- 1...Rb6 2.Rd2 Na5 3.b3 axb3 4.axb3 Rxb3
5.Rc7 Bd3+ 6.Ke1 Nc4 7.Rd1 Kf8 8.Bf4 Kg8
9.Be5 Nxe5 10.dxe5 Bc4 11.f3 Kh7
12.Kf2 Rb2+ 13.Kg3 b5 14.Re7 Re2 (75.755.433.267) 10034

46/65 129:14 +1.47++ 1...Rb6 2.Rd2 Na5 3.b3 axb3 4.axb3 Rxb3
5.Rc7 Bd3+ 6.Ke1 Nc4 7.Rd1 Kf8 8.Bf4 Nb2
9.Ra1 Ba6 10.Bd6+ Kg8 11.Ra3 Nd3+
12.Kd2 Rxa3 13.Bxa3 Nxf2 14.Re7 Ne4+ (77.812.479.271) 10034

46/70 135:15 +1.64-- 1...Rb6 2.Rd2 Na5 3.b3 axb3 4.axb3 Rxb3
5.Rc7 Bd3+ 6.Ke1 Nc4 7.Rd1 Kf8 8.Bf4 Kg8
9.Be5 Nxe5 10.dxe5 Bc4 11.f3 Kh7
12.Kf2 Rb2+ 13.Kg3 b5 14.Re7 Re2 (81.447.076.243) 10035

46/70 139:52 +1.41++ 1...Rb6 (84.209.925.247) 10034

46/70 142:00 +1.58 1...Rb6 2.Rd2 Na5 3.b3 axb3 4.axb3 Rxb3
5.Rc7 Bd3+ 6.Ke1 Nc4 7.Rd1 Kf8 8.Bf4 Kg8
9.Be5 Nxe5 10.dxe5 h5 11.f3 b5
12.Kf2 b4 13.Rd2 Kh7 14.Kg3 Bf5 (85.508.832.558) 10035

47/70 148:38 +1.51++ 1...Rb6 2.Rd2 Na5 3.b3 axb3 4.axb3 Rxb3
5.Rc7 Bd3+ 6.Ke1 Nc4 7.Rd1 Kf8 8.Bf4 Nb2
9.Ra1 Ba6 10.Bd6+ Kg8 11.Ra3 Nd3+
12.Kd2 Rxa3 13.Bxa3 Nxf2 14.Re7 Ne4+ (89.513.920.202) 10036

47/70 160:20 +1.58-- 1...Rb6 2.Rd2 Na5 (96.519.974.134) 10032

47/70 163:37 +1.51++ 1...Rb6 (98.475.074.340) 10030

47/70 181:11 +1.60-- 1...Rb6 2.Rd2 Na5 3.b3 axb3 4.axb3 Rxb3
5.Rc7 Bd3+ 6.Ke1 Nc4 7.Rd1 Kf8 8.Bf4 Kg8
9.Be5 Nxe5 10.dxe5 h5 11.f3 Ba6
12.Kf2 Rb2+ 13.Kg3 Re2 14.f4 h4+ (109.024.607.846) 10028

47/70 188:46 +1.48++ 1...Rb6 (113.634.110.087) 10032

47/70 201:43 +1.64-- 1...Rb6 2.Rd2 Na5 3.b3 axb3 4.axb3 Rxb3
5.Rc7 Bd3+ 6.Ke1 Nc4 7.Rd1 Kf8 8.Bf4 Kg8
9.Be5 Nxe5 10.dxe5 h5 11.f3 Ba6
12.Kf2 Rb2+ 13.Kg3 Re2 14.f4 h4+ (121.414.724.418) 10031

47/72 209:08 +1.42++ 1...Rb6 2.Rd2 Na5 3.b3 axb3 4.axb3 Rxb3
5.Rc7 Bd3+ 6.Ke1 Nc4 7.Rd1 Kf8 8.Bf4 Kg8
9.Be5 Nxe5 10.dxe5 Bc4 11.f3 Kh7
12.Kf2 Rb2+ 13.Kg3 b5 14.Re7 Re2 (125.956.078.386) 10037

47/72 211:53 +1.48 1...Rb6 2.Rd2 Na5 3.b3 axb3 4.axb3 Rxb3
5.Rc7 Bd3+ 6.Ke1 Nc4 7.Rd1 Kf8 8.Bf4 Kg8
9.Be5 Nxe5 10.dxe5 h5 11.f3 Ba6
12.Kf2 Rb2+ 13.Kg3 Re2 14.Rd4 Rxe5 (127.643.457.207) 10039

48/72 228:45 +1.55-- 1...Rb6 2.Rd2 Na5 (137.886.866.233) 10046

48/72 287:51 +1.62-- 1...Rb6 2.Rd2 (173.804.575.600) 10062

48/72 297:54 +1.67 1...Rb6 2.Rd2 Na5 3.b3 axb3 4.axb3 Rxb3
5.Rc7 Bd3+ 6.Ke1 Nc4 7.Rd1 Kf8 8.Bf4 Nb2
9.Ra1 Ba6 10.Bd6+ Kg8 11.Ra3 Nd3+
12.Kd2 Rxa3 13.Bxa3 Nxf2 14.Re7 Ne4+ (179.861.208.593) 10062

49/72 310:02 +1.60++ 1...Rb6 (187.232.514.320) 10065

49/72 312:31 +1.53++ 1...Rb6 (188.729.203.507) 10064

49/72 340:21 +1.60-- 1...Rb6 2.Rd2 (205.591.949.379) 10067

49/72 349:09 +1.65 1...Rb6 2.Rd2 Na5 3.b3 axb3 4.axb3 Rxb3
5.Rc7 Nc4 6.Rd1 Rxe3 7.fxe3 Nxe3+
8.Ke1 Nxd1 9.Kxd1 Kf8 10.Rxb7 Be4
11.g3 Kg8 12.Kc1 Kh7 13.Kb2 Kg6
14.Kb3 Kf6 (211.242.374.935) 10083

50/72 364:40 +1.58++ 1...Rb6 (221.235.370.105) 10110

50/72 375:47 +1.65-- 1...Rb6 2.Rd2 Na5 3.b3 axb3 4.axb3 Rxb3
5.Rc7 Nc4 6.Rd1 Rxe3 7.fxe3 Nxe3+
8.Ke1 Nxd1 9.Kxd1 Kf8 10.Rxb7 Be4
11.g3 Kg8 12.Kd2 Kh7 13.Kc3 e5
14.Ra7 exd4+ (228.115.967.961) 10117

50/72 423:59 +1.71 1...Rb6 2.Rd2 Na5 3.b3 axb3 4.axb3 Rxb3
5.Rc7 Nc4 6.Rd1 Rxe3 7.fxe3 Nxe3+
8.Ke1 Nxd1 9.Kxd1 Kf8 10.Rxb7 Be4
11.g3 Kg8 12.Kc1 Kh7 13.Kb2 Kg6
14.Ka3 Kf6 (257.541.907.449) 10123

51/72 446:16 +1.64++ 1...Rb6 (271.171.686.856) 10127

51/72 517:02 +1.71-- 1...Rb6 2.Rd2 Na5 3.b3 axb3 4.axb3 Rxb3
5.Rc7 Bd3+ 6.Ke1 Nc4 7.Rd1 Kf8 8.Bf4 Kg8
9.Be5 Nxe5 10.dxe5 h5 11.f3 Ba6
12.Kf2 Rb2+ 13.Kg3 Re2 14.h4 Rxe5 (314.172.210.012) 10127

51/72 558:34 +1.64++ 1...Rb6 (339.336.542.125) 10124

51/72 625:05 +1.72-- 1...Rb6 2.Rd2 Na5 (379.707.367.970) 10123

51/72 651:46 +1.60++ 1...Rb6 (396.038.597.768) 10127

51/72 693:21 +1.72 1...Rb6 2.Rd2 Na5 3.b3 axb3 4.axb3 Rxb3
5.Rc7 Nc4 6.Rd1 Rxe3 7.fxe3 Nxe3+
8.Ke1 Nxd1 9.Kxd1 Kf8 10.g3 b6
11.Kd2 Bf5 12.Rb7 g5 13.Kc3 h5
14.Kb4 Bd3 (421.743.773.253) 10137

52/72 756:13 +1.64++ 1...Rb6 (460.404.638.181) 10146

52/72 812:32 +1.57++ 1...Rb6 2.Rd2 (494.687.124.174) 10146

52/72 853:54 +1.64-- 1...Rb6 2.Rd2 Na5 (519.939.241.652) 10148

52/72 856:04 +1.55++ 1...Rb6 (521.224.650.651) 10147

[pgn]
[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2017.10.15"]
[Round "?"]
[White "?"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "4k3/1p4pb/r1n1p2p/3p4/p2P4/4B3/PP3PPP/2RR1K2 b - -"]

1... Rb6 2. Rd2 Na5 3. b3 axb3 4. axb3 Rxb3 5. Rc7 Bd3+
6. Ke1 Nc4 7. Rd1 *

[/pgn]

[D]4k3/1pR3p1/4p2p/3p4/2nP4/1r1bB3/5PPP/3RK3 b - -

Engine: Ancalagon_014 HT (256 MB)
by T. Romstad, M. Costalba, J. Kiiski, G. Linscott

38 25:40 +1.87 7...Kf8 8.Bf4 Nb2 9.Ra1 Ba6 10.Ra3 Nd3+
11.Kd2 Rxa3 12.Bd6+ Kg8 13.Bxa3 Nxf2
14.Re7 Ng4 15.h3 Nf6 16.Ke3 Bf1
17.Kf3 Bd3 18.Rxe6 Be4+ 19.Kg3 Nh5+
20.Kf2 Nf4 (15.782.320.220) 10242

38 25:40 +1.94 7...g5 8.Ra1 Na3 9.Kd1 Ba6 10.Rh7 Bc4
11.Bc1 Rd3+ 12.Bd2 Ba6 13.Rxh6 Nc4
14.Ra2 Rxd4 15.Rxe6+ Kf7 16.Rh6 g4
17.h4 gxh3 18.Rxh3 Kg6 19.f3 Ne3+
20.Kc1 Rd3 (15.782.320.220) 10242

That looks now like a clear win, but this is the result of more than a night analysis. The question is: should Stock judge the initial position as a draw, or hope he can play exact enough with White to finish the Black defence?
And if you test this, what timecontrol do you need :)

New:

This is the new unequal coloured Bishop evaluation. Made from the top of my head. Is it nonsense or is the standard approach wrong?

It's same position but a different first move and eval, which I did not expect. What does your program say about the unequal color bishops here? Can be any program I think.


[D]4k3/1p4pb/r1n1p2p/3p4/p2P4/4B3/PP3PPP/2RR1K2 b - -

Engine: Ancalagon_051 HT (256 MB)
by T. Romstad, M. Costalba, J. Kiiski, G. Linscott

22/33 0:03 +0.69++ 1...a3 2.Rd2 axb2 3.Rxb2 Bd3+ 4.Kg1 b5
5.Rc3 Bc4 6.f4 b4 7.Rcc2 Ra3 8.Kf2 Kf7
9.Rc1 Ke8 10.Bd2 Ra4 (34.875.875) 10956

22/33 0:03 +0.68 1...a3 2.Rd2 axb2 3.Rxb2 Bd3+ 4.Ke1 b5
5.Rc5 Bc4 6.Bf4 Kd7 7.Be5 g5 8.Bg7 h5
9.h3 b4 10.Rc2 g4 11.hxg4 hxg4
12.Bf6 Kd6 13.Bg7 e5 (36.049.434) 10970
.
.
.
36/59 21:07 +0.67 1...a3 2.Rd2 axb2 3.Rxb2 Bd3+ 4.Ke1 b5
5.Bf4 Bc4 6.Be5 Ra4 7.Rc3 Nb4 8.a3 Nd3+
9.Rxd3 Bxd3 10.Bxg7 Rxa3 11.Bxh6 Bc4
12.h4 Ra1+ 13.Kd2 Ra3 14.Be3 Kf7 (13.229.399.589) 10440

37/59 22:13 +0.60++ 1...a3 2.Rd2 (13.919.033.319) 10436

37/59 23:49 +0.67-- 1...a3 2.Rd2 axb2 (14.906.226.058) 10429

37/59 26:52 +0.62 1...a3 2.Rd2 axb2 3.Rxb2 Bd3+ 4.Ke1 b5
5.Bf4 Bc4 6.Be5 Ra4 7.Rc3 Nb4 8.a3 Nd3+
9.Rxd3 Bxd3 10.Bxg7 Kf7 11.Bxh6 Rxa3
12.f3 Bc4 13.Bf4 Ra1+ 14.Kf2 b4 (16.799.154.544) 10415

38/59 27:58 +0.55++ 1...a3 2.Rd2 axb2 3.Rxb2 Bd3+ 4.Ke1 b5
5.Bf4 Bc4 6.Be5 Ra4 7.Rc3 Nb4 8.a3 Nd3+
9.Rxd3 Bxd3 10.Bxg7 Kf7 11.Bxh6 Rxa3
12.f3 Bc4 13.Bf4 Ra1+ 14.Kf2 b4 (17.482.452.914) 10417

38/59 30:34 +0.62-- 1...a3 2.Rd2 (19.080.445.842) 10403

38/59 30:59 +0.55++ 1...a3 2.Rd2 axb2 3.Rxb2 Bd3+ 4.Ke1 b5
5.Bf4 Bc4 6.Be5 g5 7.Rc3 Kd7 8.Kd2 Rxa2
9.Rxa2 Bxa2 10.Ra3 Bc4 11.g4 Nb4
12.Bg7 Na2 13.Bxh6 b4 14.Rxa2 Bxa2 (19.341.168.662) 10402

38/59 31:14 +0.64-- 1...a3 2.Rd2 axb2 3.Rxb2 Bd3+ 4.Ke1 b5
5.Bf4 Bc4 6.Be5 Ra4 7.Rc3 Nb4 8.a3 Nd3+
9.Rxd3 Bxd3 10.Bxg7 Rxa3 11.Bxh6 Kf7
12.Be3 Bc4 13.h4 Kf6 14.Bg5+ Kf7 (19.501.462.367) 10402

38/60 31:28 +0.63 1...a3 2.Rd2 axb2 3.Rxb2 Bd3+ 4.Ke1 b5
5.Bf4 Bc4 6.Be5 Ra4 7.Rc3 Nb4 8.a3 Nd3+
9.Rxd3 Bxd3 10.Bxg7 Rxa3 11.Bxh6 Bc4
12.f3 Kf7 13.Bf4 b4 14.Rxb4 Ra1+ (19.644.821.687) 10401

39/60 32:37 +0.56++ 1...a3 2.Rd2 axb2 3.Rxb2 Bd3+ 4.Ke1 b5
5.Bf4 Bc4 6.Be5 Ra4 7.Rc3 Nb4 8.a3 Nd3+
9.Rxd3 Bxd3 10.Bxg7 Rxa3 11.Bxh6 Ra1+
12.Kd2 Bf1 13.g3 Ra3 14.Be3 Bc4 (20.347.673.003) 10394

39/60 33:14 +0.63-- 1...a3 2.Rd2 axb2 3.Rxb2 Bd3+ 4.Ke1 b5
5.Bf4 Bc4 6.Be5 Ra4 7.Rc3 Nb4 8.a3 Nd3+
9.Rxd3 Bxd3 10.Bxg7 Rxa3 11.Bxh6 Ra1+
12.Kd2 Bf1 13.g4 Kf7 14.h4 Ra4 (20.732.926.346) 10393

39/60 39:44 +0.64 1...a3 2.Rd2 axb2 3.Rxb2 Bd3+ 4.Ke1 b5
5.Bf4 Bc4 6.Be5 Ra4 7.Rc3 Nb4 8.a3 Nd3+
9.Rxd3 Bxd3 10.Bxg7 Rxa3 11.Bxh6 Kf7
12.f3 Bc4 13.Bf4 b4 14.Rxb4 Ra1+ (24.808.503.741) 10404

40/60 40:48 +0.56++ 1...a3 2.Rd2 axb2 3.Rxb2 Bd3+ 4.Ke1 b5
5.Bf4 Bc4 6.Be5 Ra4 7.Rc3 Nb4 8.a3 Nd3+
9.Rxd3 Bxd3 10.Bxg7 Kf7 11.Bxh6 Rxa3
12.f3 Bc4 13.Bf4 Ra1+ 14.Kf2 b4 (25.472.310.231) 10402

40/60 41:53 +0.64-- 1...a3 2.Rd2 (26.150.707.140) 10404

40/60 44:54 +0.58 1...a3 2.Rd2 axb2 3.Rxb2 Bd3+ 4.Ke1 b5
5.Bf4 Bc4 6.Be5 Ra4 7.Rc3 Nb4 8.a3 Nd3+
9.Rxd3 Bxd3 10.Bxg7 Rxa3 11.Bxh6 Ra1+
12.Kd2 Ra3 13.f3 Bc4 14.Ke1 Kf7 (28.043.409.588) 10405

41/60 48:29 +0.66-- 1...a3 2.Rd2 axb2 3.Rxb2 Bd3+ 4.Ke1 b5
5.Bf4 Bc4 6.Be5 Ra4 7.Rc3 Nb4 8.a3 Nd3+
9.Rxd3 Bxd3 10.Bxg7 Rxa3 11.Bxh6 Kf7
12.f3 Bc4 13.Bf4 Ra1+ 14.Kf2 b4 (30.292.870.063) 10411

41/60 49:00 +0.58++ 1...a3 2.Rd2 axb2 3.Rxb2 Bd3+ 4.Ke1 b5
5.Bf4 Bc4 6.Be5 Ra4 7.Rc3 Nb4 8.a3 Nd3+
9.Rxd3 Bxd3 10.Bxg7 Rxa3 11.Bxh6 Ra1+
12.Kd2 Ra3 13.h4 Bc4 14.Be3 Kf7 (30.621.937.892) 10412

41/65 50:42 +0.66-- 1...a3 2.Rd2 (31.691.749.809) 10415

41/65 57:50 +0.60 1...a3 2.Rd2 axb2 3.Rxb2 Bd3+ 4.Ke1 b5
5.Bf4 Bc4 6.Be5 Ra4 7.Rc3 Nb4 8.a3 Nd3+
9.Rxd3 Bxd3 10.Bxg7 Rxa3 11.Bxh6 Bc4
12.f3 Kf7 13.Bf4 b4 14.Rxb4 Ra1+ (36.222.310.626) 10437

42/65 60:09 +0.67-- 1...a3 2.Rd2 axb2 3.Rxb2 Bd3+ 4.Ke1 b5
5.Bf4 Bc4 6.Be5 Ra4 7.Rc3 Nb4 8.a3 Nd3+
9.Rxd3 Bxd3 10.Bxg7 h5 11.Rb3 Bc4
12.Rh3 Ke7 13.Rf3 Ke8 14.Bf8 Ra7 (37.671.063.490) 10436

42/66 83:25 +0.75-- 1...a3 2.b3 (52.045.723.466) 10398

42/66 157:58 +0.85-- 1...a3 2.b3 (98.723.898.901) 10416

42/66 183:10 +1.01-- 1...a3 2.b3 (114.277.028.271) 10398


8-)
Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first
place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you
are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
-- Brian W. Kernighan
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MikeB
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Re: Which one is wrong?

Post by MikeB »

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic ... dVnB69tePg

fixed link using tiny url
http://tinyurl.com/create.php?url=http% ... osting.php

there's probaly other methods too
the # sign is the culprit...
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Eelco de Groot
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Re: Which one is wrong?

Post by Eelco de Groot »

Thanks for the link Michael, yes otherwise people who don't frequent Fishcooking probably will not find that thread.

Yes, I have seen a programmer here doing that, make the link without hashtag in some way, but I can't find it anymore and forgot who it was...
Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first
place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you
are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
-- Brian W. Kernighan
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Nordlandia
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Re: Which one is wrong?

Post by Nordlandia »

This position is fabricated, originating from image ->

RRB vs RNB (opposite color bishops) seem to have slightly more drawing tendencies than same-colored bishop.

[d]4k3/1p4pb/r1n1p2p/3p4/p2P4/4B3/PP3PPP/2RR1K2 b - -

Image
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peter
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Full name: Peter Martan

Re: Which one is wrong?

Post by peter »

Hi Eelco!

Voted against 1...a3(?) because of 2.b3(!) (...Rd2 in your latest output- line seems ? to me too) :

[d]4k3/1p4pb/r1n1p2p/3p4/3P4/p3B3/PP3PPP/2RR1K2 w - - 0 1

Analysis by Houdini 6.02 Pro x64-popc:

2.b3 Nb4 3.Rc7 Nxa2 4.Bd2 Rb6 5.Ra1 Rxb3 6.Rxa2 Bb1 7.Ra1 a2 8.Ke1 g5 9.Kd1 Rd3 10.Rxb7 Rxd4 11.Ra7 Rg4 12.g3 Rc4 13.R7xa2 Bxa2 14.Rxa2 Kf7 15.Ra6 g4 16.Bxh6 Kf6 17.Ke2 Kf5 18.Kd3 Rc7 19.Be3 e5 20.Ra7 Rxa7 21.Bxa7 Ke6 22.Bc5 Kf5 23.Bb4 Ke6 24.Bf8 Kf5
+- (2.53) Depth: 34/69 00:08:34 14476MN

That was with full hash after some Forward- Backward of the one and the other 1...a3- lines, as well as this one after your and other ones with 1...Rb6:

[d]4k3/1p4pb/1rn1p2p/3p4/p2P4/4B3/PP3PPP/2RR1K2 w - - 0 1

Analysis by Houdini 6.02 Pro x64-popc:

2.Rd2 Na5 3.b3 axb3 4.Rb2 Bd3+ 5.Ke1 g5 6.Bd2 Nc6 7.Rxb3 Rxb3 8.axb3 Nxd4 9.Rc3 Bf5 10.Rc7 Nxb3 11.Rxb7 Nc5 12.Rc7 Nd7 13.f3 Bd3 14.Kf2 Bb5 15.Rc8+ Kf7 16.h4 gxh4 17.Rh8 Ne5 18.Rh7+ Kf6 19.Rxh6+ Ng6 20.Rh5 e5 21.Bg5+ Kg7 22.Bxh4 Nf4 23.Rf5 Bd7 24.Rf6 Ne6 25.Ke3 Nf4 26.g3 Ng2+ 27.Kf2 Nxh4 28.Rd6 Be8 29.gxh4 d4 30.Rd8
+/- (1.38) Depth: 35/72 00:10:07 16654MN

Not quite sure if Black's lost already after 1...Rb6 too (in output line 5...g5 seems to be suboptimal to me already, at the end it's clear +- anyhow yet), but I'd be rather sure about that with 1...a3(?) I guess
Peter.
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Nordlandia
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Re: Which one is wrong?

Post by Nordlandia »

GUI: CuteChess 1.0.0
CPU: i7-5960X 4.3GHz
Hash: 4096 MB allocated per engine
EGTB: Probing 5-men syzygy with 6-men adjudication
TC: 30m+30s
Houdini contempt: 0

Everything else at default.

[pgn][Event "CuteChess 1.0.0 | i7-5960X 4.1"]
[Site "CuteChess 1.0.0 | i7-5960X 4.1"]
[Date "2017.10.15"]
[Round "?"]
[White "stockfish_x64_bmi2"]
[Black "Houdini 6"]
[Result "1-0"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "4k3/1p4pb/r1n1p2p/3p4/p2P4/4B3/PP3PPP/2RR1K2 b - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "59"]
[EventDate "2017.??.??"]
[TimeControl "1800+30"]

1... Rb6 {-1.25/32 87s} 2. Rd2 {1.70/37 88s} Na5 {-1.23/33 38} 3. b3 {1.59/33
9.8s} axb3 {-1.36/32 10} 4. axb3 {1.74/37 41} Rxb3 {-1.30/32 65s} 5. Rc7 {
1.84/32 30} Bd3+ {-1.20/32 410s} 6. Ke1 {1.72/38 72s} Nc4 {-1.28/34 55} 7. Rd1
{1.59/37 12} g5 {-1.44/33 210s} 8. Ra1 {1.71/38 41} Na3 {-1.44/31 53} 9. Kd1 {
1.52/34 10} Ba6 {-1.24/29 34} 10. Rh7 {1.95/37 146s} Bd3 {-1.38/31 66s} 11.
Rxh6 {2.14/33 41} g4 {-1.53/30 73s} 12. Rxe6+ {1.99/32 11} Kf7 {-1.17/29 28}
13. Rh6 {2.16/35 39} Be4 {-1.19/30 51} 14. h3 {2.45/36 185s} g3 {-1.65/30 206s}
15. Bg5 {2.54/34 35} Bf3+ {-1.92/30 114s} 16. Kd2 {2.81/36 54} Bxg2 {-1.57/28
29} 17. fxg3 {2.85/37 21} Be4 {-2.26/31 142s} 18. h4 {2.85/43 61s} Rd3+ {
-2.27/32 57} 19. Ke2 {3.78/37 56} Rxg3 {-2.27/35 49} 20. Rf1+ {4.18/31 12} Kg8
{-2.89/32 97s} 21. Rhf6 {4.47/36 40} Nc2 {-3.21/35 104s} 22. Rf8+ {4.92/40 43}
Kg7 {-3.80/35 82s} 23. R1f6 {5.78/39 45} Nxd4+ {-3.84/33 61s} 24. Kf2 {7.02/34
46} Rg2+ {-4.56/37 104s} 25. Ke3 {7.85/32 21} Nc2+ {-4.93/31 13} 26. Kf4 {
7.72/1 0} Rf2+ {-5.05/37 79s} 27. Kg3 {7.89/50 46} Rxf6 {-8.56/31 72s} 28. Rxf6
{8.23/40 23} Bg6 {-19.18/33 157s} 29. Rb6 {15.62/37 59} Ne1 {-148.36/40 71s}
30. Rxb7+ {132.65/49 65s} Kf8 {adjudication} 1-0

[/pgn]

Lichess server analysis - https://lichess.org/EZBVJqmR

Chessbase let's check analysis - http://view.chessbase.com/cbreader/2017 ... 39921.html
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peter
Posts: 3186
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Full name: Peter Martan

Re: Which one is wrong?

Post by peter »

Ok, Jon, letting play out two of the best (Celo- wise) three engines against each other or on its own with 30'+30" will end up 1-0 most of the tímes with ...Rb6 too, I guess, which doesn't prove it to be fully lost for sure at e.g. corr.- TC.

I'm rather sure, as shown, of full point for White after 1...a3 (?) 2.b3, but not knowing the position after 1...Rb6 to be lost too with best play of Black it won't help to let play out engines on their own with short TC.
Maybe you get some difference statistically with 100 games of 1..Rb6, but maybe not, if TC is simply too short still.

I don't have the hardware- time free for at least 500'+30" 12 cores each, and I don't have the motivation to try that considering, Black would lose after 1...Rb6 than still probably.
:)
Peter.
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Eelco de Groot
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Re: Which one is wrong?

Post by Eelco de Groot »

Nordlandia wrote:This position is fabricated, originating from image ->

RRB vs RNB (opposite color bishops) seem to have slightly more drawing tendencies than same-colored bishop.

[d]4k3/1p4pb/r1n1p2p/3p4/p2P4/4B3/PP3PPP/2RR1K2 b - -

Image
That was some nice detectivework Jon, thanks! And you found it without even the EPD, and with a changed position!

I did find the f2-e3-d4 structure with the bishop and two pawns a bit familiar already. But I don't think I know the game or where I may have seen it before. The comments do also help, and point to the weakness in White's position. The bishop on e3 is for me a classical Bad Bishop, someone described it as a big pawn; having to stay there to defend d4 but you would rather have a simple pawn on e3 and use the bishop to roam freely.
Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first
place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you
are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
-- Brian W. Kernighan
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Eelco de Groot
Posts: 4564
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Full name:   

Re: Which one is wrong?

Post by Eelco de Groot »

Nordlandia wrote:GUI: CuteChess 1.0.0
CPU: i7-5960X 4.3GHz
Hash: 4096 MB allocated per engine
EGTB: Probing 5-men syzygy with 6-men adjudication
TC: 30m+30s
Houdini contempt: 0

Everything else at default.

[pgn][Event "CuteChess 1.0.0 | i7-5960X 4.1"]
[Site "CuteChess 1.0.0 | i7-5960X 4.1"]
[Date "2017.10.15"]
[Round "?"]
[White "stockfish_x64_bmi2"]
[Black "Houdini 6"]
[Result "1-0"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "4k3/1p4pb/r1n1p2p/3p4/p2P4/4B3/PP3PPP/2RR1K2 b - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "59"]
[EventDate "2017.??.??"]
[TimeControl "1800+30"]

1... Rb6 {-1.25/32 87s} 2. Rd2 {1.70/37 88s} Na5 {-1.23/33 38} 3. b3 {1.59/33
9.8s} axb3 {-1.36/32 10} 4. axb3 {1.74/37 41} Rxb3 {-1.30/32 65s} 5. Rc7 {
1.84/32 30} Bd3+ {-1.20/32 410s} 6. Ke1 {1.72/38 72s} Nc4 {-1.28/34 55} 7. Rd1
{1.59/37 12} g5 {-1.44/33 210s} 8. Ra1 {1.71/38 41} Na3 {-1.44/31 53} 9. Kd1 {
1.52/34 10} Ba6 {-1.24/29 34} 10. Rh7 {1.95/37 146s} Bd3 {-1.38/31 66s} 11.
Rxh6 {2.14/33 41} g4 {-1.53/30 73s} 12. Rxe6+ {1.99/32 11} Kf7 {-1.17/29 28}
13. Rh6 {2.16/35 39} Be4 {-1.19/30 51} 14. h3 {2.45/36 185s} g3 {-1.65/30 206s}
15. Bg5 {2.54/34 35} Bf3+ {-1.92/30 114s} 16. Kd2 {2.81/36 54} Bxg2 {-1.57/28
29} 17. fxg3 {2.85/37 21} Be4 {-2.26/31 142s} 18. h4 {2.85/43 61s} Rd3+ {
-2.27/32 57} 19. Ke2 {3.78/37 56} Rxg3 {-2.27/35 49} 20. Rf1+ {4.18/31 12} Kg8
{-2.89/32 97s} 21. Rhf6 {4.47/36 40} Nc2 {-3.21/35 104s} 22. Rf8+ {4.92/40 43}
Kg7 {-3.80/35 82s} 23. R1f6 {5.78/39 45} Nxd4+ {-3.84/33 61s} 24. Kf2 {7.02/34
46} Rg2+ {-4.56/37 104s} 25. Ke3 {7.85/32 21} Nc2+ {-4.93/31 13} 26. Kf4 {
7.72/1 0} Rf2+ {-5.05/37 79s} 27. Kg3 {7.89/50 46} Rxf6 {-8.56/31 72s} 28. Rxf6
{8.23/40 23} Bg6 {-19.18/33 157s} 29. Rb6 {15.62/37 59} Ne1 {-148.36/40 71s}
30. Rxb7+ {132.65/49 65s} Kf8 {adjudication} 1-0

[/pgn]

Lichess server analysis - https://lichess.org/EZBVJqmR

Chessbase let's check analysis - http://view.chessbase.com/cbreader/2017 ... 39921.html
Thanks!
Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first
place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you
are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
-- Brian W. Kernighan
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Nordlandia
Posts: 2821
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:38 pm
Location: Sortland, Norway

Re: Which one is wrong?

Post by Nordlandia »

Peter Martan

I launched same position on my twin laptops with ponder enabled.

4...Bc2 seem to be a mistake or simply blunder in difficult position.

4...Bc2 made the situation a lot worse which transpose into lost N vs B endgame.

[pgn][Event "EXPERT-PC, Rapid 30m+30s"]
[Site "EXPERT-PC"]
[Date "2017.10.16"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Houdini 6.02 Pro x64-pext"]
[Black "Stockfish 131017 64 BMI2"]
[Result "*"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "4k3/1p4pb/r1n1p2p/3p4/p2P4/4B3/PP3PPP/2RR1K2 b - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "41"]
[TimeControl "1800+30"]

1... Rb6 {1.40/35 83} 2. Rd2 {1.22/30 120} Na5 {1.42/37 0} 3. b3 {1.33/28 60}
axb3 {1.40/36 93} 4. Rb2 {1.23/32 0 (axb3)} Bc2 {1.39/35 54 (Bd3+)} 5. Rcxc2 {
1.84/33 35 (axb3)} bxc2 {2.60/43 164} 6. Rxb6 {2.04/41 0} Nc4 {2.64/39 12} 7.
Rxe6+ {2.13/36 30} Kd7 {2.74/45 48 (Kf7)} 8. Bxh6 {2.20/37 60} Kxe6 {2.75/47 0}
9. Bc1 {2.27/35 79} Na5 {2.90/46 17} 10. Ke2 {2.34/38 79} Nc6 {2.90/48 0} 11.
Kd2 {2.41/36 49} Nxd4 {3.05/42 59} 12. Bb2 {2.48/36 0} Nf5 {3.28/41 151} 13. g3
{2.56/37 0} c1=Q+ {3.55/45 344 (c1R)} 14. Bxc1 {2.94/32 70 (Kxc1)} Nd6 {
3.62/42 85 (g6)} 15. Kd3 {3.25/32 61} Nf5 {3.95/41 135 (Ne4)} 16. g4 {3.64/31
53 (f4)} Ne7 {4.18/48 93 (Nd6)} 17. f4 {4.31/32 54 (Bb2)} g6 {5.25/42 309} 18.
Bb2 {5.37/41 0} Nc6 {6.33/41 239 (Ng8)} 19. h4 {7.22/30 67} Kf7 {7.02/43 64}
20. Ke3 {7.38/32 1} Na5 {7.97/39 301 (b6)} 21. Kd4 {13.48/33 314} Nc4 {11.52/
48 0} *

[/pgn]

Lichess analysis - https://lichess.org/fhZhNToT
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