A french defence game

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

could you please check, when you have time, the h5 line?

My Komodo has been checking for many hours. Unlike me, it never needs to sleep.

[d] r1bq3r/p4pk1/1pn1p3/3pPnPP/2pP4/P1P1BQ2/2P2P1N/R3K2R b KQ - 0 18

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+1.31 18... Kf8 19. Ng4 Ke7 20. Kd2 Kd7 21. Nf6+ Kc7 22. g6 a5 23. Qg2 Qf8 24. Rag1 fxg6 25. hxg6 Rxh1 26. Rxh1 Kb8 27. Rh5 Nce7 28. Rh7 Nxg6 29. Qxg6 Ra7 30. Bh6 Qd8 31. Rxa7 Kxa7 32. Qf7+ Qe7 33. Qg8 Qc7 34. Bf8 Kb7 35. Ke2 Bd7 36. Bd6 Qc8 37. Qf7 Kc6 38. Kf3 Nh4+ 39. Kg4 Nf5 40. Bf8 Qd8 41. Kf4 Qc8 42. Kf3 Nh4+ 43. Kg4 Nf5 44. Kf4 Qd8 45. Bd6 Qc8 46. Qf8 Nh4 47. Kg3 Nf5+ 48. Kg4 Qb7 49. Qd8 Bc8 (depth 51, 7:46:52)

20.g6, as pointed out, is much stronger.

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

[d]r1b4r/p1k1q1n1/1pn1pNQ1/3pP2P/2pP4/P1P1B3/2P2P2/R3K2R b KQ - 0 8

this is easily won for white

white places a passer on h7, gets the queenside rook to support the onslaught and it is, like GMs like to say, 'Curtains'.

such obvious easy moves, my assessment is at least 300cps white advantage, but engines don't see it...

so, it is better no more electricity is wasted on this, better try to improve a bit SF code.

I guess Komodo needs improvement too, since it doesn't see that "this is easily won for White."

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0.00 24... Nf5 25. h6 Bd7 26. h7 Raf8 27. Bg5 Qf7 28. Qxf7 Rxf7 29. Kd2 Nce7 30. Rag1 Ng6 31. Nxd7 Rxd7 32. Bf6 Rhxh7 33. Rxh7 Rxh7 34. Rxg6 Rh2 35. Ke2 Rh3 36. Kd2 Rf3 37. Rg2 Rh3 38. Bg5 Rh1 39. Be3 Kd7 40. Rg6 Ra1 41. Rf6 a5 42. Rf7+ Kc8 43. Rf8+ Kd7 44. Bg5 Rxa3 45. Rf7+ Kc8 46. Rf8+ Kd7 (depth 50, 0:38:07)

I'll let asmFish take a look too, but my guess is that it will agree with Komodo.

asmFish:

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0.00 24... Nf5 25. h6 Qf8 26. h7 Nce7 27. Qh5 Bd7 28. O-O-O Ng7 29. Bh6 Nef5 30. Qg5 Nxh6 31. Rxh6 Qxa3+ 32. Kd2 Nf5 33. Rg6 Ba4 34. Nxd5+ exd5 35. Qxf5 Rxh7 36. Rg8 Bxc2 37. Kxc2 Qb3+ 38. Kc1 Qxc3+ 39. Kb1 Qb3+ 40. Kc1 Qc3+ (depth 54, 0:28:20)

that is easily winning.

white does not change queens, not at any cost, plays the bishop to g5, passer on h7, then doubles rooks on the g file, penetrating.

score should rise to more than 300cps at some point, I don't know why engines don't see it, probably a bit deep.

sorry, don't have much time for extensive analysis now, but will certainly post some feedback at first opportunity, as the position appeals to me.

there are many extraordinary lines in this game, very difficult to discover, and many very surprising decisions, made possible by black's compromised king safety, the pointed long white chain of c3-d4-e5 and the closed center, which enhances attacking chances with slow regrouping.

[zullil]

[d]r1b4r/p1k1q1n1/1pn1pNQ1/3pP2P/2pP4/P1P1B3/2P2P2/R3K2R b KQ - 0 8

this is easily won for white

white places a passer on h7, gets the queenside rook to support the onslaught and it is, like GMs like to say, 'Curtains'.

such obvious easy moves, my assessment is at least 300cps white advantage, but engines don't see it...

so, it is better no more electricity is wasted on this, better try to improve a bit SF code.

I guess Komodo needs improvement too, since it doesn't see that "this is easily won for White."

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0.00 24... Nf5 25. h6 Bd7 26. h7 Raf8 27. Bg5 Qf7 28. Qxf7 Rxf7 29. Kd2 Nce7 30. Rag1 Ng6 31. Nxd7 Rxd7 32. Bf6 Rhxh7 33. Rxh7 Rxh7 34. Rxg6 Rh2 35. Ke2 Rh3 36. Kd2 Rf3 37. Rg2 Rh3 38. Bg5 Rh1 39. Be3 Kd7 40. Rg6 Ra1 41. Rf6 a5 42. Rf7+ Kc8 43. Rf8+ Kd7 44. Bg5 Rxa3 45. Rf7+ Kc8 46. Rf8+ Kd7 (depth 50, 0:38:07)

I'll let asmFish take a look too, but my guess is that it will agree with Komodo.

asmFish:

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0.00 24... Nf5 25. h6 Qf8 26. h7 Nce7 27. Qh5 Bd7 28. O-O-O Ng7 29. Bh6 Nef5 30. Qg5 Nxh6 31. Rxh6 Qxa3+ 32. Kd2 Nf5 33. Rg6 Ba4 34. Nxd5+ exd5 35. Qxf5 Rxh7 36. Rg8 Bxc2 37. Kxc2 Qb3+ 38. Kc1 Qxc3+ 39. Kb1 Qb3+ 40. Kc1 Qc3+ (depth 54, 0:28:20)

that is easily winning.

white does not change queens, not at any cost, plays the bishop to g5, passer on h7, then doubles rooks on the g file, penetrating.

score should rise to more than 300cps at some point, I don't know why engines don't see it, probably a bit deep.

Does Black get to make moves too, or just White?

[MikeGL]

could you please check, when you have time, the h5 line?

My Komodo has been checking for many hours. Unlike me, it never needs to sleep.

[d] r1bq3r/p4pk1/1pn1p3/3pPnPP/2pP4/P1P1BQ2/2P2P1N/R3K2R b KQ - 0 18

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+1.31 18... Kf8 19. Ng4 Ke7 20. Kd2 Kd7 21. Nf6+ Kc7 22. g6 a5 23. Qg2 Qf8 24. Rag1 fxg6 25. hxg6 Rxh1 26. Rxh1 Kb8 27. Rh5 Nce7 28. Rh7 Nxg6 29. Qxg6 Ra7 30. Bh6 Qd8 31. Rxa7 Kxa7 32. Qf7+ Qe7 33. Qg8 Qc7 34. Bf8 Kb7 35. Ke2 Bd7 36. Bd6 Qc8 37. Qf7 Kc6 38. Kf3 Nh4+ 39. Kg4 Nf5 40. Bf8 Qd8 41. Kf4 Qc8 42. Kf3 Nh4+ 43. Kg4 Nf5 44. Kf4 Qd8 45. Bd6 Qc8 46. Qf8 Nh4 47. Kg3 Nf5+ 48. Kg4 Qb7 49. Qd8 Bc8 (depth 51, 7:46:52)

Maybe this analysis which is almost 8 hours of crunching by Komodo simply
means +1.31 advantage for black, since Komodo might be doing the
standard thing on reporting the score on its perspective. Hence black is
ahead by almost a pawn, although the position shows 1 piece up for
black. But Lyudmil wants to see a +3 for white, just because.

regards

[zullil]

could you please check, when you have time, the h5 line?

My Komodo has been checking for many hours. Unlike me, it never needs to sleep.

[d] r1bq3r/p4pk1/1pn1p3/3pPnPP/2pP4/P1P1BQ2/2P2P1N/R3K2R b KQ - 0 18

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+1.31 18... Kf8 19. Ng4 Ke7 20. Kd2 Kd7 21. Nf6+ Kc7 22. g6 a5 23. Qg2 Qf8 24. Rag1 fxg6 25. hxg6 Rxh1 26. Rxh1 Kb8 27. Rh5 Nce7 28. Rh7 Nxg6 29. Qxg6 Ra7 30. Bh6 Qd8 31. Rxa7 Kxa7 32. Qf7+ Qe7 33. Qg8 Qc7 34. Bf8 Kb7 35. Ke2 Bd7 36. Bd6 Qc8 37. Qf7 Kc6 38. Kf3 Nh4+ 39. Kg4 Nf5 40. Bf8 Qd8 41. Kf4 Qc8 42. Kf3 Nh4+ 43. Kg4 Nf5 44. Kf4 Qd8 45. Bd6 Qc8 46. Qf8 Nh4 47. Kg3 Nf5+ 48. Kg4 Qb7 49. Qd8 Bc8 (depth 51, 7:46:52)

Maybe this analysis which is almost 8 hours of crunching by Komodo simply
means +1.31 advantage for black, since Komodo might be doing the
standard thing on reporting the score on its perspective. Hence black is
ahead by almost a pawn, although the position shows 1 piece up for
black. But Lyudmil wants to see a +3 for white, just because.

regards

No, White has the advantage. The GUI I'm using is set to report scores from White's perspective always.

[mbabigian]

Once I have some variations, I'll post them. There are several lines I've run across where modern engines just don't "get it" and you have to manually add lines to refute branch after branch of their analysis. This is likely another such line.

I would be very interested in your thoughts on what gets produced. It is such an old opening, refuting even most of it would be impressive.

I'll keep you posted!

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

could you please check, when you have time, the h5 line?

My Komodo has been checking for many hours. Unlike me, it never needs to sleep.

[d] r1bq3r/p4pk1/1pn1p3/3pPnPP/2pP4/P1P1BQ2/2P2P1N/R3K2R b KQ - 0 18

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+1.31 18... Kf8 19. Ng4 Ke7 20. Kd2 Kd7 21. Nf6+ Kc7 22. g6 a5 23. Qg2 Qf8 24. Rag1 fxg6 25. hxg6 Rxh1 26. Rxh1 Kb8 27. Rh5 Nce7 28. Rh7 Nxg6 29. Qxg6 Ra7 30. Bh6 Qd8 31. Rxa7 Kxa7 32. Qf7+ Qe7 33. Qg8 Qc7 34. Bf8 Kb7 35. Ke2 Bd7 36. Bd6 Qc8 37. Qf7 Kc6 38. Kf3 Nh4+ 39. Kg4 Nf5 40. Bf8 Qd8 41. Kf4 Qc8 42. Kf3 Nh4+ 43. Kg4 Nf5 44. Kf4 Qd8 45. Bd6 Qc8 46. Qf8 Nh4 47. Kg3 Nf5+ 48. Kg4 Qb7 49. Qd8 Bc8 (depth 51, 7:46:52)

not analysing, but just droping by from time to time as I can not now concentrate on pretty much anything.

in above line, white has also 20.Nh6 instead:

[d]r1bq3r/p3kp2/1pn1p2N/3pPnPP/2pP4/P1P1BQ2/2P2P2/R3K2R b KQ - 0 4

which I don't know what is, but seems to be easily winning too.

PS. oops, I see I have written droping instead of dropping, but maybe it is drooping after all...

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

I am obsessed with finding mate after Qf3 Rh8 Ng4 Nh4 Rh4(!?) Rh4 Kd2:

[d]r1bq4/p4pk1/1pn1p3/3pP1P1/2pP2Nr/P1P1BQ2/2PK1P2/R7 b - - 0 4

anyone with a powerful machine, is there mate or not?

this is just an illustration how rich the position actually is.

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

funny, SF does not spot Qf3 Rh8 h5 Ne3 fe3! Qg5 0-0-0 and white wins:

[d]r1b4r/p4pk1/1pn1p3/3pP1qP/2pP4/P1P1PQ2/2P4N/2KR3R b - - 0 4

other lines are more or less similar and lead to very convincing white scores.

asmFish finds Qf3 quickly, so Stockfish should too.

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info depth 27 seldepth 40 multipv 1 time 9755 nps 10144614 score cp -51 lowerbound nodes 98960713 tbhits 0 hashfull 15 pv h5f3
info depth 27 currmove h5f3 currmovenumber 1
info depth 27 seldepth 40 multipv 1 time 10037 nps 10581027 score cp -43 lowerbound nodes 106201769 tbhits 0 hashfull 17 pv h5f3
info depth 27 currmove h5f3 currmovenumber 1
info depth 27 seldepth 40 multipv 1 time 10805 nps 11691859 score cp -33 lowerbound nodes 126330542 tbhits 0 hashfull 19 pv h5f3
info depth 27 currmove h5f3 currmovenumber 1
info depth 27 seldepth 40 multipv 1 time 12692 nps 13821887 score cp -17 lowerbound nodes 175427397 tbhits 0 hashfull 30 pv h5f3
info depth 27 currmove h5f3 currmovenumber 1
info depth 27 seldepth 40 multipv 1 time 15597 nps 16964628 score cp 3 lowerbound nodes 264597303 tbhits 0 hashfull 47 pv h5f3
info depth 27 currmove h5f3 currmovenumber 1
info depth 27 seldepth 40 multipv 1 time 22016 nps 22229699 score cp 31 lowerbound nodes 489409067 tbhits 0 hashfull 102 pv h5f3
info depth 27 currmove h5f3 currmovenumber 1
info depth 27 currmove h2g4 currmovenumber 2
info depth 27 currmove h5h7 currmovenumber 3
info depth 27 currmove e3f4 currmovenumber 4
info depth 27 currmove h5h6 currmovenumber 5
info depth 27 currmove e1d2 currmovenumber 6
info depth 27 currmove e1e2 currmovenumber 7
info depth 27 currmove e1c1 currmovenumber 8
info depth 27 currmove g5g6 currmovenumber 9
info depth 27 currmove h5g6 currmovenumber 10
info depth 27 currmove e3d2 currmovenumber 11
info depth 27 currmove e1d1 currmovenumber 12
info depth 27 currmove h1g1 currmovenumber 13
info depth 27 currmove h5h8 currmovenumber 14
info depth 27 currmove e3c1 currmovenumber 15
info depth 27 currmove f2f4 currmovenumber 16
info depth 27 currmove h2f3 currmovenumber 17
info depth 27 currmove h5g4 currmovenumber 18
info depth 27 currmove a1c1 currmovenumber 19
info depth 27 currmove a3a4 currmovenumber 20
info depth 27 currmove h2f1 currmovenumber 21
info depth 27 currmove h1f1 currmovenumber 22
info depth 27 currmove a1d1 currmovenumber 23
info depth 27 currmove a1a2 currmovenumber 24
info depth 27 currmove h5e2 currmovenumber 25
info depth 27 currmove e1g1 currmovenumber 26
info depth 27 currmove f2f3 currmovenumber 27
info depth 27 currmove e1f1 currmovenumber 28
info depth 27 currmove h5d1 currmovenumber 29
info depth 27 currmove a1b1 currmovenumber 30
info depth 27 currmove h5f7 currmovenumber 31
info depth 27 seldepth 41 multipv 1 time 24052 nps 23425287 score cp 26 nodes 563425009 tbhits 0 hashfull 114 pv h5f3 f8h8 h2g4 g7f8 g4f6 c6e7 h4h5 e7g8 e1c1 g8f6 e5f6 f8e8 e3f4 e8d7 f4e5 d7c6 g5g6 f5h6 a3a4 a7a5 f3f4 c6b7 c1d2 c8d7 g6g7 h8h7 d1a1 h6f5 f4g4 d7c6 a1a2 b7a7 h1b1 f5h6 g4f4 h6g8 f4g5 h7h6

and after more time

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info depth 42 seldepth 76 multipv 1 time 854389 nps 36479390 score cp 120 nodes 31167589739 tbhits 0 hashfull 999 pv h5f3 f8h8 h2g4 f5h4 f3f6 d8f6 g5f6 g7f8 e3h6 f8e8 h1h4 e8d7 e1e2 d7c7 a1h1 c8d7 g4e3 a7a5 h6f4 h8h4 h1h4 a8g8 h4h7 c6d8 f4h6 c7c6 h6g7 c6b5 h7h1 g8e8 f2f4 b5c6 e2f3 c6b5 e3g4 b5c6 h1a1 c6c7 a1g1 c7c6 g4e3 c6b5 g1a1 b5c6 a1b1 e8g8 f3e2 g8e8 b1h1 c6c7 h1h7 c7c6 e2d2

from that position you should squeeze at least +450cps.

so, your SF has nothing to be proud of, raving again somewhere in the fringe lines...

My asmFish will now hang its head in shame, as it can only reach +1.45.

Here's the latest "fringe line", after 17. Qf3:

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+1.45 17... Rh8 18. Ng4 Nxh4 19. Qf6+ Qxf6 20. gxf6+ Kf8 21. Bh6+ Ke8 22. Rxh4 Kd7 23. Ke2 Kc7 24. Rah1 Bd7 25. Kd1 a5 26. f3 b5 27. Bd2 Rxh4 28. Rxh4 Rg8 29. Rh7 Be8 30. Be3 a4 31. Nh6 Rf8 32. Ke2 Nd8 33. Ng4 Rg8 34. Bh6 Kb6 35. Bd2 Nc6 36. Kd1 Nd8 37. Bc1 Nc6 38. Ke2 Nd8 39. Kf2 Rf8 40. Nh6 Kc6 41. Ke2 Kb6 42. Kd2 Kc7 43. Ng4 Nc6 44. Ke2 Nd8 45. Bh6 Rg8 46. Bd2 Kb6 47. Kf2 Kc7 48. Nh6 Rf8 49. Ke2 Bd7 50. Ng4 Bc6 51. Be3 (depth 58, 2:27:58)

Even after more than 15 hours of searching, presumably of trillions of nodes, asmFish is unable to "squeeze at least +450 cps" from this position. So either Lyudmil or asmFish has somewhat misunderstood the position. Probably asmFish.

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+1.56 17. Qf3 Rh8 18. Ng4 Nxh4 19. Qf6+ Qxf6 20. gxf6+ Kf8 21. Bh6+ Ke8 22. Rxh4 Kd7 23. O-O-O Kc7 24. Rdh1 Bd7 25. Be3 Rxh4 26. Rxh4 Rg8 27. f3 Nd8 28. Rh7 Be8 29. Kd1 Ba4 30. Nh6 Rf8 31. Kd2 Kc8 32. f4 Kc7 33. f5 Kd7 34. fxe6+ Kxe6 35. Kc1 Nc6 36. Kb2 Nd8 37. Bc1 Nc6 38. Bd2 Nd8 39. Be3 Nc6 40. Kc1 Nd8 41. Bf4 Nc6 42. Bg3 Nd8 43. Kb2 Nc6 44. Ng4 Nd8 45. Kc1 Kd7 46. Kd1 Rg8 47. Rg7 Rf8 48. Nh6 Ke6 49. Rh7 Kd7 50. Bf4 Ke6 51. Kd2 Bc6 52. Ke1 Ba4 53. Kd1 Nc6 54. Kd2 Nd8 55. Bg5 (depth 66, 15:07:10)

just looked at the main SF and Komodo line, and after 22...Kd7, white seems to have much stronger with 23.Rh5, aiming at Rg5:

[d]r1b4r/p2k1p2/1pn1pP1B/3pP2R/2pP2N1/P1P5/2P2P2/R3K3 b Q - 0 7

guess with this improvement(unless you refute it), score should rise above at least 200cps.

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

Once I have some variations, I'll post them. There are several lines I've run across where modern engines just don't "get it" and you have to manually add lines to refute branch after branch of their analysis. This is likely another such line.

I would be very interested in your thoughts on what gets produced. It is such an old opening, refuting even most of it would be impressive.

I'll keep you posted!

chess is significantly richer than what most people think.

engines have opened our eyes for many things, combining human knowledge with engine tactical solutions provides a very strong asset.

if you ask me, 80% of all generally accepted opening lines for black are losing or very bad.

just take the:
- Alekhine
- Budapest gambit
- Benko gambit(all black gambits seem to be busts, black simply is not allowed to play gambits)
- the Grob for white is of course losing, also shown by engines
- mainline KID seems to be lost for black
- QGA is very close to be a very bad choice, if not lost altogether
- many French and Caro-Kan lines are at least very dangerous for black, etc., etc.

seemingly, on e4 only satisfactory reply should be c5, e5 or g6(with the last a bit tricky to hold)

on d4, only c5, d5 and g6 should certainly hold(Nf6 seems to be a bit tricky in some lines)

on c4, probably nothing holds.

PS. this is a bit serious and a bit of fun, but the serious part is larger.
in any case, this is my present knowledge.
more - in a couple of years' time.